juppiter

I see what you mean, but at times I think standalone episodes offer more insight because they are compressed into a shorter space of time. For instance, Ginger's abortion episode was probably the most insight we got into her character. I think this was a nice episode because it was a break from a season where Abby was probably at her hardest, starting with the killer revenge she got on her ex, ending with her stealing Gary from Val.

I think a good standalone episode can offer more than an arc whic is just plot and plot. I learned more about Abby in that episode than I did in that Nurekama arc, or whatever it was called. If not for the comedy moments they threw in with Abby I would call that the worst story Abby ever had (that honor goes to her affair with Michael York).

Oh see Murakame I enjoyed. But yeah the Michael York thing was dreadful -- didn't she end up pulling one over on him in the end tho? iirc that story almost redeemed itself in the end.

I didn't see the episode that way. I mostly saw it as Abby, on the surface, being very ruthless - becoming close to this old man, since she resembled his old love. This was heartless, but for me it was the definitive Abby episode, because underneath, she had a heart. The scene after she learns he had signed his love's name, not her name, and that she wouldn't be getting any money. Instead of kicking his corpse, or making a nasty remark, she went over to a mirror, put on one of the hats she'd worn for him, and just had a wistful smile on her face. The layering in that scene alone is something I've never forgotten.

I clearly did... lol. Now that you describe it it sounds like a great scene. For me it registered as an episode where nothing meant anything. The events would never be mentioned again and who cares? Where is the drama? There are episodes like that that I find good because they foreshadow what's to come -- Abby to Gary after Judy Trent leaves, "Are you ready for me now, Gary?" is killer-- or offer insight on the characters that the mid-late seasons certainly do not provide. I still can't justify an episode based on one scene though I will have to rewatch that one. Never caught my eye before tho.

Richard said once in regards to not wanting to miss Daniel's childhood -- "1 through 4 are the best years."

He could have been describing Knots Landing when he said that. The problem with the early seasons is that while they do have the best individual episodes, there were enough misfire episodes that are completely pointless and painful on rewatch.

If I had to name a favorite season it would be season 5. How absolutely brilliant to see a show up the ante without completely losing its core, and there is not a single bad episode in the season. But if we are going for top 10 episodes, most of mine would come from 1 through 4.

I don't remember any bad standalone episodes in that season, although it's been a while. One stand-alone, Silver Shadows, is one of my very favorite episodes. The only episode I remember disliking was when Gary and Val had to go rescue Lillimae when she was arrested for shoplifting or whatever. Oh, I'd forgotten about Cricket. Not great, but I thought it was kind of sweet, and nice to see Val in protective mama mode, while ultimately trying to do her best to help the girl. She never really got to do that with her own kids. For me the worst stand-alone episode, mostly because it was just too overwrought, not because it was a horrible piece of garbage, was the one where Val had cancer, and Gary went on a rampage.

Isn't Silver Shadows where Abby like whores herself out to the old man? I haven't seen it in a couple years; I do have it on VHS. But I don't remember particularly liking it or having it shed too much light on Abby.

Season 3 was Sid's death, Karen grieving, Abby getting Gary into bed, Richard having a mental breakdown and Laura taking him back only because she was pregnant.

Ciji and Karen started in season 4.

Season 3 is my favorite season. A lot of people don't like it, but Flo says it best:

Season 3 is hard to get through but there are so many gems in it. The Gary/Abby affair was done so well. Karen grieving over Sid was done well at times (Michele Lee's best acting was when she took the ring off) but at times it was too depressing a storyline and the show was grasping at straws looking for its soul with Don Murray gone.

Some of those one-off episodes are among the series' worst one-off episodes. Thank god they went to the serial format in season 4, because the one-off format was no longer shedding light on the characters as in the early episodes. Episodes like Cricket are just plot driven and bad.

That said, my favorite episode "China Dolls" is in season 3. The perfect Knots Landing episode, acting-wise, dialogue-wise, cinematically, just a breathtaking episode. Season 3 has some really great points and some cringeworthy points. It's a season of highest highs and lowest lows to me. I don't write it off but I can see why ratings were down that year. The show was definitely finding itself.

Since season 3 involves Lisa Hartman singing.. I imagine licensing issues are a problem here. The effing publishing coimpanies, in the wake of the collapse of the CD market, are trying to grub every penny they can from TV and film licensing, charging insane amounts for song licensing (like 400$ per SECOND) I would love nothing better than a Knots continuation, and having Brian Austin Green and Tonya Crowe be the main stars of it. Tonya Crowe can carry a show, Brian.. not so much, but that can be worked around. And cast completely new people to be Bobby and Betsy. I would STILL have a widowed Karen and Abby still living in the cul-de-sac. Have Meg be living there with Karen... she could be in college or something. Karen and Abby feuding would be great TV. Even bring Jeff of all people back into the mix to cause drama with Abby.

Ciji doesn't show up until season 4. And Ciji mainly sang cheesy pop songs they wrote for the show; it was more Cathy who sang mainstream pop songs.

Likely season 3 hasn't been released because 1 and 2 underperformed

I don't believe it's down to voting to someone similar to you. Many "bubbas" hated and feared Bill Clinton. Many Wall Street types adored Bill Clinton. They still do. Clinton did as much to undo financial regulations - if not more - than any Republican President.

I don't believe that all black people automatically see themselves in Obama. I do think that the racial attacks played a part, but I think many just saw him as the better candidate.

Black people do automatically see themselves in Obama. I am a liberal's liberal, probably more liberal than most on this board, practically a commie, but when a group has been enslaved both officially and unofficially for 230 years they will obviously take the chance to elect one of their own.

With Clinton, I agree that he was happy to not only ride the Carter/Reagan/Bush deregulation train but drive it even faster, but at this point in time Democrats had been out of power 12 years. Look at the 2000 election for an example of liberals getting annoyed and staying home -- they cannot be counted upon to turnout for elections. Clinton had no choice but to appeal to centrists. When liberals can be counted on to vote, we will have a liberal president again (which we have not had since LBJ in the 60s.)

There is nothing racist about my post. Of course it was his skin color that got him elected. What were the other reasons, he gave a good speech? So does Sarah Palin.

Your post was racist. Obama created a movement in 08 and it was not just because of his race. To state that the only black president we have ever had was elected on no merit other than being black is a racist statement because it implies that no black man could have been worthy of having been elected. Eisenhower held no political office prior to being elected -- do you have an issue with that presidency or just with the n!gger? Do you believe Obama was born in Honolulu, HI? If so, what steps have you take to distance yourself from the radical Nazi -- I mean Republican -- party? If you cannot answer this you are a racist...

Based on the campaign Hillary was running until she ran aground, I think she probably would have done the same poll-tested, can't-we-be-friends stuff Obama did. That was the essence of Mark Penn. Democrats in power always believe Republicans are their special, forever friends. Even Bill Clinton still feels that way.

Totally disagree. She saw how and why Hillarycare flopped and she would have rammed some single payer through with an iron fist and portrayed Republican obstruction as favoring the 1% before it was even cool to say 1%.

That said I feel kinda disgusting dissing Obama for making overtures to the other side. I despise the Pollyanna speech on Knots Landing but it applies here. Making overtures and being nice should be the norm.

Bill Clinton didn't ruin Hillary's chances. He made one comment about Jesse Jackson and the Obama camp and their allies labeled him a racist. Bill Clinton isn't a racist and the democratic party should have been ashamed of themselves for how they treated the Clintons all in the cause of a guy who was a Senator for two years and had no qualifications except the color of his skin. Had he been white and a senator for two years with no legislative accomplishment during that tenure Obama wouldn't have gotten a single primary or caucus. I don't know how everyone on earth doesn't see this.

Bill Clinton is not a racist, but this post kinda is? It was not Obama's skin color that got him elected. He inspired people for reasons other than being black. At this point I wish he never had been elected. His election made me believe in the US. The reaction to him since has made me deeply ashamed to be an American. If he loses I'm pulling a Baldwin. Going to Italy this summer and will be networking for jobs while there.

BTW all this is so ironic for me as I voted Hillary in the 08 primary... lol...

Hillary would have as much of a chance of winning as Obama. The same money spent making people hate him would make people hate her. Hillary is popular now because she is not running for President.

Bill Clinton is responsible for many of the problems we have in America today, thanks to 8 years of enabling rollbacks on the checks and balances which kept our economy from falling off a cliff. He likes to hear himself talk and nothing else matters. That's why he ruined Hillary's chances.

Besides hating minorities and women, the only tactic seems to be constantly reinforcing how you should hate and envy public workers and want their benefits to be cut down to nothing. It's all about making sure everyone but their rich friends gets kicked in the teeth.

I think Hillary would have been more prepared from day one than Obama was to deal with the way Republicans are when they're in the minority -- Obama's first two years went down exactly how Bill Clinton's did. But yes, she wouldn't have the high approval ratings she does among Republicans had she actually won.

I disagree that Bill ruined her chances. Obama just inspired the country in 2008. And then not counting Florida and Michigan's primary votes did not help her.

As hated as season 13 was, I did like that they tried to put Val in a less dramatic place and have her helping the woman who couldn't read. Val was just exhausted as a character and needed the break. I also liked that episode where they moved back to the cul-de-sac and we got audio flashbacks of her life there.

Yeah some people hate that but I totally did not mind that scene where they move back in and there's no lightbulbs again. I think it's unique that a show gets to flashback to 13 years ago and that scene worked for me. Also JVA looks better in season 13 than at any other point. Unfortunately the plastic surgery didn't end there and in season 14 she looks awful lol.

I have a question are a lot of the episodes of KL uploaded to YouTube? Only the first two seasons are available on DVD, and I never really watched it.

Nah there is next to nothing presumably for copyright reasons. I don't know why these companies bother protecting copyrights of programs they have seemingly no interest in releasing. There is a hilarious parody video called Knots Landing 2009 that will give you a gist of what KL was about.

Your posts aren't down at all. The more we care about a show the more likely we are to criticize. That we watched (and even in reruns, as I watched it, 14 seasons is a lot) and still care is a sign of how we loved the show.

I hated Noises Everywhere. I never got over what Mack did, and Valene was embarrassing. They just spat on the Laura/Val friendship with Val behaving that way. It's a good example of how infantilized Val became.

The only good part was Laura's video goodbye. And Jill hitting Paige with Peter's ashes.

Val finally getting to call out Karen on her condescending behavior -- ANY contract cast member getting to call out Karen -- was good though. But yeah, I hated that Val acted that way at Laura's funeral and early season Val certainly would not have.

I was always a little surprised that when Richard returned, he seemed happy, settled, with a new family - I thought in some ways this was such a bitter pill to swallow, as Laura fought so hard under his thumb and died young. But Pleshette always made me feel sorry for Richard, so I didn't mind as much as I would have in most circumstances. I guess his being close to the show even after leaving the role of Richard helped create a positive return, instead of something like crashing the funeral drunk and ruining everything (I guess that was Mack's job). I do think it might have been a nice touch if he visited Karen in one of the last episodes, and got to meet Meg.

I never know whether to consider "Noises Everywhere" a success or a failure. Letting the actors write it through improv was a novel idea, but Val, Mack, and Karen making Laura's death all about THEM was spitting on her grave. That said, it was in character for them at that point in the show.

I feel like my posts in this thread are down on Knots Landing. Let me re-iterate that Knots Landing was the best show I have ever seen on American television. Even the Lechowick years, there were things they did that annoyed me, but they wrote season 10 and it's unprecedented for any TV show to have a good season 10. There's a reason this thing lasted 14 years.

I think Richard left at the right time. His character was so heavily tied to Laura, and their story had come to an end - the sense of shame he felt when he realized just how much better Laura was than him and that Laura would never allow herself to be rid of him, was an incredible exit. I do agree that he wouldn't have left his kids, but he was a very weak man.

John Pleshette was probably the best actor on the show, and I did miss that.

I felt like the show gave up on Laura once she married Greg, which is a shame, as she was still a fascinating character. Greg was never the same without her - he became very one-dimensional.

What was season 11 about? Is that the one where Mack kept screaming DIRTY COP DIRTY COP? Between that and Amanda's friend, I wasn't overly impressed, although I loved Linda.

Yup, that was season 11. Mack had already been unbearable for years by that point but yeah DIRTY COP HE'S CROOKED SEVEN WAYS FROM SUNDAY was by far the worst. Shame because Mack really is a great character in season 4, but they never really knew what to do with him after that besides being a moral crusader.

I think Richard could have been Abby's partner in crime through at least season 5. Forget the name of that hunky lawyer dude who was her partner in crime in season 5 but Richard could have had that role.

The unique thing with Anne was that she brought class conflict to the cul-de-sac. "What is this garbage night thing I keep hearing about?" alol.

I really don't think so. While you can argue that the Lechowicks had issues when it came to writing Val, the babies provided story all the way through Season 9 and I don't think Val flatlined until Season 12 with that virus thing.

Val flatlined in season 11 for me -- as a matter of fact KL flatlined in 11 for me. In season 10 she had the Jill storyline which I LOVE. It is all so ridiculous and over-the-top but season 10 in general is a strong season; the only one where the Lechowicks' vision for Knots truly meshed for me. Gary not caring whatsoever but being forced into a mess by two psychotic women was just pure soapy shlock that worked for me. In season 11 Val forgets the last ten years and becomes a vapid doormat for Danny and his mullet.

So losing Kenny and Ginger to me was no big tragedy even tho Kim Lankford seems like a lovely person -- but what do you guys think about Richard? To me Richard was a fascinating character and John Pleshette was an amazing actor. I don't know how Richard would have fit in in the "new" Knots Landing but it kind of sucks that he was written out after season 4.

Laura managed to stay relevant in season 5, but in 6-9 I don't really think she was. She was a definite "B" character in those. In season 5 she doesn't drive the story but she still plays an integral role connecting the characters (e.g. to Karen -- "Was that before or after you started taking pills?" -- Karen is an awful friend to Laura in season 5 despite the later BFFs rewrite.) Had Richard stayed around it would have been interesting to track Laura/Richard's alternate paths after their divorce. IMO, Richard was a loser, but abandoning his sons is just something I could never quite buy. Richard could be an awful person, but he could also be incredibly loving to his family even when he was holding them at gun point.

I feel like the Laura/Richard storyline still had miles to go. I would have wanted them to stay divorced but there were still things that they had to say to each other about their marriage. There were still more storyline options for Laura had Richard stuck around. Richard leaving after s4 was the true tragedy.

What in the hell is the man supposed to do when these vile, disgusting Republicans won't even bring the jobs bill to a vote. You get tired of hearing what he's supposed to do...when the same people gave W. a pass. "You can't blame it on him. It's Congress fault." Now it turns the other way.

And let's spend our time as Republicans passing bills that curtail a women's right to do anything, voter suppression (Since they're so gung ho aboput winning, why cheat?) banning whatever they don't like and then lying to the American, or as Mitt says, Amercia, people.

And if the Democrats had any semblace of a spine, maybe this crap wouldn't be happening.

If Democratic voters could be counted upon to turn out to vote, the Republican party would have been voted into oblivion over a decade ago, or at least forced to redefine itself to not be so psycho. Democrats are forced to pander to the middle because liberals suck at voting, whereas conservatives are quite good at it.

They did try. More than enough.

The fact that they were kept around for four years is evidence enough that they wanted to make it work. Can you name any other show that would have done it?

Ginger was given the same treatment the other three ladies were from the beginning. Each lady had a standalone episode in the beginning that was meant to showcase them and develop them. In Karen, Val and Laura's case (with Let Me Count The Ways, Will The Circle Be Unbroken and The Lie) it was a resounding success. Three of some of the best hours of TV I've ever seen. With Ginger on Constant Companion, a huuuuge, boring failure. Yet, they were given story and involved as much as possible.

However, I agree that the idea of Ginger in the middle years of the show, with Joshua, works for me. But Lankford would have never done well (just like she never did in any of the other seasons) and pairing her against the wonderful Baldwin seems like suicide. But it doesn't matter because Joshua didn't even come in until Season 6. What would Ginger have done in Season 5? And she had a baby too!

I don't even know what to say about the Cathy comment. You've stunned me. She was never the greatest or most complicated of characters but she worked wonderfully. I don't see why you don't like her. But, then again, you also don't like Lilimae? looooool

I have to agree with Carl that they didn't really try -- you are right that Ginger got a standalone episode like the other ladies but there are also a whole bunch of episodes that Kenny and Ginger aren't even in -- episodes 2 and 3 of season 1 for example. So I don't think they really did try that hard to make it work, though it is weird that they lasted all the way to season 4. Season 4 was by far the best season for Kenny/Ginger but I still think it's OK to cut them.

As for Cathy, she never seemed like a character. I agree with Carl, she never truly worked on the level that Ciji did. She was there as an excuse to have Lisa Hartman sing. Which is OK because Lisa Hartman had star power and helped the show get ratings, but Cathy was never really a character.

Thanks for posting that. I always liked Kim Lankford from the interviews I have read with her -- Kenny and Ginger were pretty lame characters and I can't say I was sorry to see them go, but it sucks that it happened to someone who seems as nice as Kim Lankford does.

This is why Democrats lose. They are terrified of everything. Meanwhile, Republicans are - on taxpayer dollars - sending people to Hawaii to investigate Obama's birth certificate, and no one gives a damn.

This. "Liberal" became a dirty word because of the hippies, and the Democrats have been playing defense ever since. It was 50 years ago, it is time to grow a pair!

alol

Wow. It looks like Arizona's Secretary of State is working to keep Obama off the ballot.

http://tpmmuckraker....her.php?ref=fpa

If you can't win an election, steal it. Worked for Bush II.

To me the most interesting stories the last couple of days have been international ones. The Socialists regaining power in France after 17 years is huge. There is not actually much in the way of socialism they CAN do without leaving the EU, but it'll be interesting to see how the dynamics change and if France-Germany will still be BFFs.

And of course the disastrous Greek election is the biggest clusterfuck democracy has given us in years. I hate what the Greek people are going through, I saw a pictorial on life in Greece a couple weeks ago that just broke my heart, but their crisis just fascinates me.

I absolutely agree about Tanya. She should be proud of her performances at 1991 US Nationals and especially 1991 Skate America. They were absolutely amazing performances. It is sad she is remembered for what came after. I don't know what she knew and when, it is possible that she was helpless to stop the Nancy Kerrigan attack as she claims. I do know that she cried wolf so many times that it's hard to believe anything she says. But I know that she did not have the most supportive friends/family and I think ultimately what happened is that she gave in to her demons, believing she wasn't good enough, after 1991. I'm just happy that she has those two incredible performances, and that nobody can ever take them away from her. They were two of the best performances I have ever seen.

Anyone watch the 2012 Worlds? I was only able to catch the men, unfortunately, I do prefer the ladies. I thought Brian Joubert was sexy as hell on ice, and I know he is unsure about continuing to compete but for the sexiness quotient I hope he will, and I gotta wonder about Patrick Chan getting the gold when he fell and the silver medalist did not.

Code of Points removes subjectivity but when the gold medalist skates a flawed program and the silver medalist skates a clean program I have to wonder.

I didn't get to see the ladies, but Alissa Czisny in 22nd? Yikes. She's gorgeous, but she sucks. I keep waiting for the US to produce another great skater. We dominated this sport for years and years, why is it so hard now to find a talented lady who is competitive?