EricMontreal22

So with my comment on not thinking of thirtysomething as a true soap--do people have any discussion/definitions for what makes a primetime soap and what doesn't? Would you agree with Sylph that any character based serial on primetime is a primetime soap? Or do you agree with me that there tends to be some other element that truly makes it fit the genre? or? I admit I go back and forth (I do hate that people who watch, say Six Feet Under which Alan Ball actually said in all seriousness WAS a soap and essentially Knots Landing in a funeral home, like to distance themselves from the soap label out of snobbism)

Also--to what degree have primetime soaps been written (or even created) by writers with prior daytime soap opera experience? It would seem, on the outside, a nobrainer to hire a daytime soap creator to write your primetime soap, but this doesn't seem to be all that common. Peyton Place of course used Irna Phillips early on to help setup the show, though she didn't do any writing once production began (and she came on after ABC turned down the first pilot). Some of the other writers involved with scriptwork, Mathilde and Theo Fero, Robert J Shaw, etc, all had background with primetime shows but also involvement (before and later) with daytime soaps.

None of the major late 70s-early 80s primetime soaps were created by Daytime soap people--David Jacobs created Dallas and Knots (and a number of flops) but never seems to have worked in daytime soaps, Falcon Crest's Earl Hamner was famous as a novelist and creator of The Waltons but not soaps, Richard and Esther Shapiro behind Dynasty, didn't have a soap background either. But I think a number of the writers on the shows did-the writers most credit for making Dynasty into a campy hit were Eileen and Robert Mason Pollock who essentially (as Chris Schemering points out) took every soap opera cliche they had used more subtly in daytime, and upped them to a ridiculous degree and at a ridiculous speed.

While the big 90s Spelling primetime soaps--90210 and Melrose were created by Darren Starr, it was the much loved on here (lol) Charles Pratt Jr who was known for Santa Barbara, who wrote Melorse's top years as well as creating many of Spelling's flop followups (Models Inc, Titans...)

I actually did relate to it a lot at that age. OKOK maybe not specifically--at least not to Mike (God Ken Olin was dreamy back then) and Hope, but I think you can still relate to the emotions, etc (if that makes sense) not to mention I could to Melissa's lack of direction.

I adore thirtysomething--I got into it in reruns when I was 19 or something, lol. I still have it on VHS, but maybe I should get the DVDs now that I'm about to turn (gulp) thirty.

But... I'm not sure it's a primetime soap. 10 years ago, I would have argued it was, I've since changed my mind. There's a quintessential difference between something like thirtysomething and Knots landing--which deal with people the same age, with similar backgrounds and some of the same problems. That's why I call the Herskovitz/Zwick shows domestic dramas--also of course they next to never had cliff hangars although the episodes weren't fully self contained.

That said all three of their major shows--thirtysomething, My So-Called Life and Once and Again (which of course shared a villain with thirtysomething--and how frustrating is it that the third and last season of O&A still isn't out) are some of my all time fave tv--even the lesser works they were involved in, like Relativity and their flop webseries 1/4 Life had stuff to recommend them. I'm still pretty upset their pilot last year wasn't picked up and that it's not back up this year, as people said it might be.

But the irony is when I was a fan of MSCL as a teen online, and people on the forums would tell me to wait till I was in my thirties to watch thirtysomething as I wouldn't relate to it--they were pretty much wrong--I got it (well when I was 18-19--maybe I wouldn't have at 11 when I was still trying to save "MSCL" in its original run lol) SFK if you are giving it a chance though--and I really recommend you do, keep in mind it took 4 or 5 episodes to find its voice. The pilot, is exactly what the critics at the time who hated the show described it--the characters seem whiny, self absorbed, etc. But by the fourth or fifth episode it's pretty much wonderful. (In hindsight Once and Again had a pretty annoying pilot too--with the meet cute between the parents, etc, but it found its tone soon after--only MSCL had a pretty perfect pilot).

I do remember being 7 at a motel in the rain with my parents and the only show they had on their tv reception was thirtysomething--and I thought it was the boringest thing EVER. LOL

(I like the Big Chill a lot but I actually think thirtysomething is far less self absorbed than Chill is, LOL)

Because he sings what you like. But I see what's bothering you, I never expected that from you.

The sorta skipping elfin quality? Are you calling me homophobic I actually don't think his music's too good--it is a LOT like Scissor Sisters--the mix of disco hommage with Elton John hommage--but he doesn't want to alienate the middle aged mothers and young girls so doesn't even have a bit of their edge or sense of fun (I mean he did a single that was a song to overweight girls and how beautiful they are which is a good message but the song was so simplistic random that it seemed insulting to me). I don't think hes' a very good songwriter.

Then, maybe, from his last album Blame It On The Girls and I See You might be for you.

LOL @ Eric not liking Mika!

LOL Why would I like huim? The funniest was the revelation that in his press profile all interviewers were told to not ask about his sexuality. And then he came out as "bi". LOL Puhleeze!

Primetime is full of soaps these days. Damages is a soap. Lost is a soap. Brothers & Sisters is a soap. Countless others.

There is a difference though, I think. This came up a while back when I was discussing my love for the Herskovitz/Zwick domestic dramas--they're serials yet they don't feel like "prime time soaps".

Oh I liked Titans. I felt it had so much potential but probably being on NBC was the ultimate thing that hurt it. How long did it last? Felt like only a few episodes. Not enough to make an impact

Anyone watch Pacific Palisades? Another I felt had potential and Im surprised Fox didnt give it the chance it gave Melrose

I did--it seemed to be Fox's attempt at a Knots Landing in the post Melrose era.

Vamp Diaries is way better than I ever expected--if only the ouldn't kill off a new character every single ep.

Damages is kinda overated, IMHO, but Sylph is dead on--it's a legal soap. It has very few procedural qualities.

Don't they do a lot of flash forwards on that show, and try their best not to use a narrative?

The flashes inform the narrative--are a part of it. I don't even understand your comment

Connie's romance with Rossi was dropped, due to ethic standards? Umm--which exactly? They disapproved of middle aged love triangles? I did feel that story was dropped ridiculously fast, and Rossi suddenly having unsympathetic speeches to Connie didn't help.

What's so frustrating---and I know Shout shares our frustration, is what the freak else is Fox doing with these episodes? It's not a situation where they have lucrative sales elsewhere... They aired them on the Romance network but have they even repeated them elsewhere?

Saynotoyoursoap--without seeming desperate, what can I do to convince you to encode an episode of Return as your next youtube upload?

Two Time Magazine articles. (Spoilers in each) The first has interesting points about the writing team.

Television: Triple Jeopardy

Friday, Aug. 20, 1965

Any other TV producer would think his ship had come in if one of his inge nues were piped aboard Frank Sinatra's good ship Southern Breeze. But Paul Monash, executive producer of ABC's Peyton Place, needed Mia Farrow's cruise like a hole in the hull. For one thing, Peyton Place had all the voyeur interest it needed on-screen without any help from off-screen publicity. For another, even before all the headlines from Cape Cod, Peyton Place's ratings were about as high as they could go. "Realistic Escapism." When Peyton Place was first announced for the 1964-65 season, the industry wondered if ABC programming had been taken over by some kind of nut. The network was not only gambling on soap opera in prime time but also doubling the stakes with another innovation—running the untested show two nights a week. But the network reasoned that 1) audiences could be hooked as easily in the evening as in the afternoon by the serial format, and 2) that the U.S., newly caught up in the "romantic escapism" of Ian Fleming, might be similarly ripe for the "realistic escapism" of Grace Metalious. Realism, of course, turned out to be a euphemism for a concentration of sexual adventurism such as no network had ever risked before. In its first season, Peyton Place was so successful that in June the network added a third weekly show, making the schedule Tuesday, Thursday and Friday at 9:30 p.m. (E.D.T.). Ever since, even the laggard in the entry was never out of the Top 15, and at one point, the whole trio was bunched into the first five. The trick is if you see one, you have to see them all—all of the series' half dozen crises are mentioned and in tensified in every episode. Though the first Peyton Place was to have the same protagonists and proclivities as Metalious' peeping tome, Producer Monash insisted that the tone would be different. The novel, he says, was "a negativistic attack. Ours is a love affair with the town. The general feeling we have is of people evolving toward the light." But after 102 episodes, there has been little perceptible evolution.

Last week's three chapters, for instance, interwove the multiple subplots without even a glimmer of psychic peace or a fleeting, joyous guffaw. Dr. Vincent Markham, back home after winning "international renown as the Albert Schweitzer of the Andes," was, it turned out, on the brink of divorce because he could not relate to women, and on the road to suicide because of sibling rivalry with a twin brother. The town's most dynamic executive, David Schuster, was feeling trapped at the office and in a sick second marriage that was turning his lovely, congenitally deaf daughter into a willful mute. And even the last nice teen-age girl in town, Allison MacKenzie (Mia Farrow), was at 18 facing Life: Schuster, she learned, was interested in her for more than her baby-sitting services. "Basically Moral." But Monash sees "nothing offensive" in such plotting. "Why don't our critics," he asks, "count up what happens in the three hours King Lear is on the stage?" Not that ABC is really counting (except its audiences). Its prime defense, enunciated repeatedly by Programming Director Adrian Samish, is that "the show is basically very clean and moral, because wrongdoers are punished." For instance, when the richest boy in town gets the daughter of his father's secretary pregnant, he is compelled to marry her. But then the girl herself breaks the code. She has an accidental mis carriage before the wedding but does not tell him and she gets her punishment—the marriage is annulled.

Keeping solemn tab on the retributions, not to mention the whole 32-character plot line, is the responsibility of Peyton Place's "story board." The board, consisting of three senior writers, and aided by a constantly updated chart presentation that probably has no counterpart outside the Pentagon's "war room," lays out each episode. Five junior writers then turn their scenarios into finished scripts. None of the eight writers is over 35; only two earn less than $1,000 a week. Expensive Trappings. But they have to work to stay in that bracket. The cameras grind away on the back lot at 20th Century-Fox in Hollywood filming three half-hour episodes a week—more than the average movie crew shoots in a month. Thus the production is less polished than a feature film and sometimes barely distinguishable from the commercials Nevertheless, should ratings and sponsorship warrant, the staff stands ready for what could be "the next step" —four segments a week. All shows are filmed, and the stockpile is kept at 30. Thus, to cover Mia Farrow's absence at sea last week, Allison had an auto accident and fell into a coma, anxiously watched over by Mom (Dorothy Malone) and Dr. Michael Rossi (Ed Nelson). But because of the backlog, viewers will not see this momentous catastrophe until mid-November. And before Mia embarked, Peyton Place directors forehandedly shot advance footage of her in a comatose state and found a lie-in double who could almost fool Frank. Meantime, Peyton Place's 50 million frequenters have enough else to agonize over. Like whether Allison's father will take over the Clarion, and with it, the collateral duty of "the conscience of Peyton Place." Or if Dr. Markham can save his marriage, not to mention his life. Or if that other subcharacter, Rita Jacks, really is, as she fears, "no good. Joe kissed me, and when he kissed me —for a second, for a minute—I didn't want to stop . . ." Which, ABC trusts, is the way the viewers will continue to feel about Peyton Place.

And from the end of a Dec 1968 article:

"The new programs will fit into scheduling holes opened up by the imminent demise of several series, most of which are less than a year old and never caught on. NBC is dropping The Beautiful Phyllis Diller Show. CBS is losing Daktari and Blondie. ABC is dumping The Don Rickles Show, The Ugliest Girl in Town, Journey to the Unknown, The Felony Squad and Operation: Entertainment. The network is also jettisoning The Dick Cavett Show (TIME, March 22), one of TV's most literate daytime programs, which rarely ranked higher than 35th among the 35 daytime shows included in the ratings. But the biggest casualty is likely to be Peyton Place, originally seen on ABC twice a week and at one point increased to three times a week. The five-year-old show has tumbled to the bottom third of the Nielsen rankings of prime-time programs. Next month, it will be cut back to one episode weekly, and by next fall, unless the ratings improve dramatically, it will go off the air for good. The problem is how to find a happy—or even any—ending for all the tangled people and plots of Peyton Place. Executive Producer Paul Monash admits that it will be impossible to "tie up all the story threads. The solution has been proposed to have the Miles family [Negroes, newly arrived] burn down the town." |

Found this in a Time magazine article Television: The Boom Tube's Prime Time from Monday, Sep. 20, 1976 that predicted the hits of the upcoming season. Anyway thought this little bit might be of interest here:

"In the biggest departure from old formats and formulas, the networks are turning to expensively produced dramatic serials and adaptations of bestselling novels; the emphasis is on high drama and convoluted story lines that lather on from week to week. This strongly resembles what soap opera has been doing for decades. Some of the soaps' Homeric techniques have already sudsed off on the evening shows, partly through the smash spoof opera Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman!

The runaway hit Rich Man, Poor Man was last year's most influential show. It used heartthrob, class envy, suicide, seduction, desolation and disease with all the abandon of Days of Our Lives. Along with ABC's four-hour Eleanor and Franklin, it jolted the networks into restructuring the traditional grid of episodic family and doctor dramas. RM. PM, a $6 million mini-series based on Irwin Shaw's novel, picks up the plot this season as a full-fledged ABC serial called RM, PM Book II.

Other new dramatic serials, notably CBS's Executive Suite, which uses a corporate shelter for exploring the lives of dozens of people and their families employed by one company, also borrow the daytime shows' mode of interweaving multiple plots. Notes Bud Grant, CBS programming chief: "The serial is the most powerful form invented for television. Once you hook an audience, it stays hooked."

The biggest investor in long-form dynasty drama is NBC, with its Thursday evening Best Sellers series. Its opener, starring Henry Fonda, will be a nine-hour serialization of Taylor Caldwell's The Captains and the Kings, the saga of a Kennedy-esque Irish immigrant clan's rise to power. Other entries are based on Anton Myrer's Once an Eagle and Thornton Wilder's The Eighth Day.

Some of these shows will surely provide fresh entertainment, but most of the season's prime time will be devoted to crashingly familiar formulas."

It does seem like they musta brought it up--unless ABC did the special, and told them not to....

Schemering's entry on it is hysterical--one of the creators was Richard de Roy who we just mentioned in the Peyton Place thread--he wrote for PP and wrot ethe entire dismal Murder in PP TV movie. I admit it musta seemed like genius to get Harold Robbins to create a TV serial.

Imdb has this odd factoid: The Survivors was the first mini-series on network television - created as a finite set of episodes that told the tale beginning to end, instead of being created as an open-ended series.

Murder is an absolute nightmare and I can't believe it was written by anyone involved with the original series. The entire film was centered around a very memorable character from the original series, but poorly recast. The actor was so important to the role that it fell flat. Of course you have no Alison or Rod, but Betty and Steven were recast and Rita was MIA and they didn't even mention her name when describing where she was. The only people that came back were Connie, Elliot and Norman. Because Rita wasn't around they brought on a random later years character to marry Norman off to which made no sense. It felt hollow and was your typical mystery movie of the week. Didn't feel like Peyton Place at all.

It was ignored for TNG right?

I found this listing for a tv special on imdb: Peyton Place Revisited (1973) (TV) hosted by Peter Lawford with nearly all the actors returning to talk about the show. I wonder if it might ever pop up somewhere (would make a great DVD bonus)

I decided to go ahead and watch TNG and it is really good. Even the things that were re-written don't bother me because it's well executed and I see why they did it now. Barbara Parkins is an absolute goddess. Why didn't another soap pick her up? Watching her she's aged so well and could stand next to Linda Gray (who starred in Murder In PP btw) and Donna Mills and just kill it.

Couldn't resist, hey? yeah she seems like such a shoe in pick for one of those 80s primetime soaps.

I was worried about color, but the show is so beautiful it didn't bother me. Initially it was very bright and they highlighted color in every way possible. Everyone was wearing bright pastels and the sets really popped. Then I guess something changed and the colors became more neutral and things looked more real, but still very nice.

Of course a lot of early colour stuff was done exactly like that0--they used every excuse they could to show as many colours as possible. Can't wait.

It really seems like the thought to do a serial in an hour format was just utterly alien lol

Thanks PR! the title screams flop spin off like Girl From UNCLE lol It coulda been maybe an idea to do something like that for the Summer and put PP on hiatus, since the production schedule--particularly 3 eps a week seems to have eventually killed it. (In one of the Paley Center seminars Agnes Nixon of all people talks about that with peyton, how much more time it took cuz it was shot on film, etc)

I totally agree with this. This is the format that the British soaps picked up. Better production values and a faster pace, but also very character driven and constantly flowing and evolving. Another great wonder of Peyton Place is how they can introduce a new character. No real spoilers, but the show constantly would add one or two new characters and almost center the show around them with the other characters being weaved into their umbrella story. With all these new characters so far I believed that they were truly living in Peyton Place off screen and heaven help those poor outsiders who dare to enter those city limits!

Yes I've already encountered this with the people connected to the pharmay--I dunno how they do that so well, on most soaps when they do have a new character who has meant to have lived in town for a while already (which they rarely do anymore--need everyone be newcomers?) it always seems weird--you never get the sense they actually were in, say, Pine Valley for all that time.

You're right that that's the British model (of Monash was inspired by Coronation Street maybe this is an example)

One thing you two need to wait for is Ruth Warrick as Hannah Cord. She is a page turner. Every single episode another layer is peeled off and she is just god like. It makes me want to see Warrick on As the World Turns (an oriignal cast member!) and All My Children. Since I never saw much classic AMC, she was new to me and boy did she make an impression. I know AMC let her do the reunion film, The Next Generation, but what would've happened if it was picked up to series? You guys probably don't know, but Michael Filerman (the EP of Knots Landing, Dallas and Falcon Crest) was hired to revamp the show as a new primetime serial. I haven't watch TNG in it's entirety, but from what I saw he updated it well. The writing is what annoys me. Like these modern remakes they completely rewrote history in several cases. Still, I look forward to watching it. Murder In Peyton Place is pure trash (pivitol roles are poorly recast including Betty, story sucks, etc.), but TNG got a ton of cast members back and seemed to be more choherent. I just can't decide if I should watch it now or save it to air after the final episode.

I am SOO effing excited to see Ruth and David Canary way back when, on this show. A number of other characters too.

Yeha when I get the DVDs I admit it may be hard not to check out the tv movies, or even a random episode in a later season. It does make sense that in the 80s they'd wanto revive it even if the setup of most of the primetime soaps of the era were every different.

Murder in Peyton Place was written by Richard DeRoy who wrote many fo the tv episodes (at least the early seasons) so it's too bad it's so trashy--I hear TNG was a marked improvement, and ignored much of Murder.

Again no spoilers, but I totally agree! People like to say the show went to crap when it went to color, but I totally disagree. The scripts are just as good and there are some of the most powerful stories the show ever had. What I love most is that in many ways this show is more daring than modern soaps, yet they don't actually spell it out for you. Sex was dealt with in such a powerful and graphic way, but only from the emotional aspect. They never say the word sex or rape, but the actors and writers are so vivid that you totally understand. Today I don't think a soap could get around with a young heroine talking about how much she enjoyed sex and not be considering some evil whore or the show being hailed as immoral. It's all about how you choose to deal with issues and PP knew that. They milked human situations for all they were worth which made every episode a page turner.

Right, of course in some ways when you can't be soaphic it raises the intensity anyway--as you say it makes the emotional aspect more graphic.

I'm looking forward to the switch into colour--the show is so engrained into my brain as a black and white show, I can't quite picture it (I've seen the credits in colour online)

In the books Betty was never a major character and she was meant to be killed off early in the tv series. Honestly, most of the changes worked for me. I liked what they did with the Harrington/Peyton family and making Michael Rossi was perfect. You then got to use Matthew Swain as the newspaper head and a father figure for Allison. I am a little surprised as the series took off that they didn't look back to the book for stories or characters to bring on.

Yeah I found that strange too, although maybe it was wise to, after using the setup, just go on their own path (which is kinda what Alan Ball has done with True Blood--to think of a very different adaptation although he does use elements of later characters and stories in his later plots)

I'd love to see a new soap set in the 60s and written like Peyton Place. WOuld just make fabulous viewing.

Period soaps--on primetime and daytime seem near impossible to sustain (Mad Men excepted). But yeah, so would I.

The Ferros were the writers.They wrote General Hospital in the first few months.I think the Dobsons had to finish at Search For Tomorrow(a contractual thing?)and the Ferros were 'caretakers' of the show for that time.maybe some other posters know more.

Eric,are you familiar with the proposed spinoff 'The Girl from Peyton Place'?It was to debut in Summer of 65 as a once a week entry,before going to twice a week in the fall.It dealt with Betty in NY and would air Mon and Fri 9.30-10.00.Days after the announcement,plans were changed claiming there wasn't enough time to put together the whole show.Barbara Parkins was dismayed.

That does make sense--I even wonder if some of her New York storyline was meant to lead into that...

The Ferros are listed on about a 1/4 (maybe a few more) of the episodes, but they're not listed as story or script editors or consultants in the main credits--just for that episode's script.

I always thought The Girl From Peyton Place was meant to air after the show was canceled. I don't know if it would've worked having PP on air and a similar spin-off. Might be too much burn out. Now I do wish they had tried to launch another primetime soap in those days. I know in 1969 Lana Turner headlined a soap called The Survivors, but info is limited and episodes are not available at all. Other than Return To Peyton Place, I'd love to know more about the 1979 pilot starring Elain Princi as Betty Anderson and Adam West was cast as well.

The Survivors is apparently kinda infamous for being such a collasal flop/disaster.

Hrmm Schemering mentions Parkins being very upset with it in 69 so maybe it was.

I always thought The Girl From Peyton Place was meant to air after the show was canceled. I don't know if it would've worked having PP on air and a similar spin-off. Might be too much burn out.

According to Schemering, it was to air when the show was canceled. When Ryan O'Neil disagreed to join as well it was canceled.

Minor spoiler for episodes 30-40

There was an episode on YouTube some time back.Betty was in New York going for a job and back in PP,I remember the Harringtons gathered in their living room.Someone was leaving townAallison was in this ep also and Dr Rossi had just arrived,I hope I'm not mixing things up.

Eric,could you tell me which ep it was?

It would be around eps 30-40, Jan-Feb 1965 (the first few discs of box set 2) I loved Betty's New York storyline (she meets a "party girl", Sharon Purcell played by Dayna Ceder who i loved, at work there who she moves in with) and felt it coulda lasted more than 6 episodes. Julie Andersen, Les' disaproving sister who is in love with Dr Rossi and who was married to the doctor whose practice Rossi took over when he died, is leaving on a world toru (I expect her to come back soon in the episodes I'm watching--I really liked her when her character became a bit more knowing). Rossie arrived in ep 1 though

From the credits he was the headwriter for most of Peyton Place.

He hasn't been listed in the credits so far--by ep 46.

This has very very slight spoilers, next to nothing specifically about story. It's from the Museum of Broadcasting interview with Del Reisman. He's been involved in a TON of major tv and was hired early on with Peyton to be story editor/consultant I believe.

Starts at 17:15

And the beginning of this has him mention working on the bible for Return To Peyton Place

Thanks for the reply I'm actually surprised there aren't more on here who seem to watch it--especially with the commercial release. ShoutFactory (to my honest surprise) have actually said it's been one of their top sellers out of their pre 1980s titles. I guess to most people on here it would have less name recognition and instant appeal compared to Dallas, Dynasty, etc... Like I said, it's much more like a daytime soap, even how it's structured--those primetime soaps usually have each episode end with a huge cliffhangar--Peyton Place ishappy to have each episode just be a series of scenes, often with no real episodic structure...

I'll promise to stay away from spoilers--I'm on about episode 45 or so... I was going to read the entry on the show in Schemering's Soap Encyclopedia but then realized I didn't want to know any spoilers... It's hard though. robert J Shaw has a crazy primetime resume (including, oddly Our Private World, and Dallas--not Falcon Crest, as well as some early 80s General Hospital)--like in the 50s and 60s he wrote nearly any show that mattered. The writing team of Theordore and Mathilde Fero who script many of the best early episodes did lotsa famous sitcoms like Leave it to Beaver and were a very early, shortlived writing team on General Hospital pre Peyton Place. Paul Monash, who developed the story and refused to call it a soap (LOL) calling it instead a television novel (he was instigated to create it when he saw the success of Coronation Street in the UK) has an awesome resume as well (going as far as helping with the 80s version of V).

I LOVE Betty (and Barbara Parkins) as well. She's so... well layered. Entitled but also sympathetic--I won't get into her more cuz of spoilers, btu she's prob my fave. That said, I honestly like all of the characters, even the lecturing Matthew Swain! I'm surprised you don't know any of the actors--particularly Ryan O'Neil and Mia Farrow (never saw Rosemary's Baby?) Both grew up to look quite different I think though when Allison talks I always think of Mia's voicework on the Last Unicorn, lol. She only took on the show expecting it not to be a hit apparently, which is why the much older Frank Sinatra who she was dating, finally broke her out of her contract. I lvoe when Betty and Allison have their discussions and you get that Betty doesn't actually blame or hate Allison. Great scenes.

However if you ever are looking for a quintessential soap opera movie--many say the impetus for Dallas, please rent Sirk's Written on the Wind, from 1956 I believe. Douglas Sirks' 50s melodramas are essential soap viewing--through his inspired directing he raised the "women's picture" in all its contrivances into an artform (the four to watch are his first hit, the really ridiculous Magnificent Obsession, the much better All That Heaven Allows which was the inspiration for Far from Heaven and of course both of those stared Jane Wyman, Written on the Wind his most controverisally sexual film, and then the most over the top Imitation of Life). But Malone is just amazingly awesome as the sexually forthright, near villainess in Written--which i think she won an Oscar for. It's a long ways from Constance McKenzie (I love her fake endlessly fluttering eyelashes!)

And I love George and the actor whose name escapes me--he does a dynamite, near schizophrenic job. It's just so compelling--and yeah he's not just some abusive monster, through the writing and the acting you really get why he is as he is. It's an example of how layered the show is.

Well when I watch a big batch of episodes I watch the titles for the first episode, and then skip the rest usually watching the closing titles for the episode I've finally resigned myself into accepting will be it for the night

I think you're right. I just thought the original (swinging adults included) leaked pilot had so much potential--by the nd of thehort run I didn't care who the murderer was, etc....