EricMontreal22

Aww that just makes me want to see it all the more... Carl do you know anything about John Kelly Genovese's Soap Opera Digest Scrapbook from 1984? I'm wondering if it collects his SOD reviews, etc, up to that point... I may just order it from amazon anywa as it's very cheap used.

Thanks for posting that review (as usual I'm late to read it). I always thought Dante's storyline was created by Agnes Nixon--she was HW during the climax of it anyway but I guess it started a bit before,

I'd never heard of Curtis' involvement in ponography before--which could have tied into Lily's feelings for him as you say. What year was that? I got hooked on the show during the Carter crossover (though I had started casually watching the Fall before when Jeremy and Ceara briefly went over) so I guess I liked it during that era. I did think Guza and Taggert did well with that quad you mention, but also agree Addie should have stayed on as HW.

So there's nothing else to the photo--this is the finished shot? It sounds like he's obsessed with Helmut Newton's infamous 1970s murdered models photoshoots as immortalized in Eyes of Laura MARS

Fosse would have at least got them to pose stronger

These leaked promo pics are AWFUL--please tell me it's for a campaign that was dropped or at least is unfinished? It looks so badly shot, for one thing, no background etc

I usually would agree with you but I think, almost surprisingly, Nolan's been far more complexly portrayed than that. He has seemed MUCH more horrified than Emily when her scehemes have gone so far (like when it appeared Lydia died), and has, albeit not very forcefully, tried to sora get her to see what she's fully doing it seems from the start, while granted eager to help her. This eagerness seems to be due to the fact that despite his money, nobody is nice to him in the community or lets him fit in (his desire for a friend, almost any friend, is both pathetic and kinda touching and reminds me of a more extreme version of some outcasts I knew in school who would buy teh rich kids' friendships by driving them to parties in their nice care when they drank, etc). He also feels an obligation to help Emily and to cover up her tactics thanks to how her dad made his career and I believe entrusted him initially with making sure she got the money (I always wonder how much older he's meant to be than her--the actor is 40 but the character is surely meant to be younger--how old was Emily when her dad died in jail?) So the Tyler thing got to him partly because, as much as he was posing as being in control with Tyler, he did obviously seem to be falling for him (it was more the fact he could never fully trust anyone genuinely being interested in him, granted which Tyler wasn't, without using him but I felt they could have developped that for a few more episodes), and also because Emily did something that personally involved HIM, Nolan, without warning or telling him first--for the first timne fully cutting her out of his game and making it affect him and even his reputation (what little he has). The New Yorker had a good review of the show that I mainly agre with. It has a typical New Yorker tone, but I like their current TV critic and while brief, by NY standards, I think it's fair: " Revenge,” a new drama on ABC, has found its own cunning take on the procedural, with a protagonist as charismatic as Dexter, and maybe even nuttier. The series is based—very, very, very loosely—on “The Count of Monte Cristo.” Emily VanCamp stars as Emily Thorne, who seeks weekly payback on the wealthy Hamptonites who had her institutionalized as a child and framed her father for unspeakable crimes. The show’s signature motif is of someone standing just outside a mansion, eyes narrowed in righteous melancholy. It could be the official soap opera of Occupy Wall Street. The show’s candied look suggests a camp-fest like “Gossip Girl,” but “Revenge” is actually a full-on melodrama, replete with strong emotions. Viewers may get high on the tablecloth pornography—the cameras swoon and swan over elegant swimming pools and thick marble countertops—but the people in those fancy kitchens aren’t kidding around. They rage; they are heartbroken; they say things like “Every time I hug you, the warmth you feel is my hatred burning through.” There are standards of quality even in over-the-top TV shows. Just as an ambitious teen show features interesting parents, a truly effective melodrama gives us villains with sad, complicated hearts. As Victoria Grayson, Emily’s nemesis, a charity-circuit viper with muffled remorse, Madeleine Stowe owns this show. One episode began with a severe closeup of her eye, fanned by delicate lines. “As Hamlet said to Ophelia,” Emily’s voice-over purrs (like “Dexter,” “Revenge” is fuelled by its arch narration), “ ‘God has given you one face and you make yourself another.’ ” Victoria’s eyes are sad, but her cheekbones round into a smile as an invisible someone brushes on blusher, preparing her for a photo shoot celebrating her marriage, which is falling apart. The show is full of gorgeous, ridiculous sequences like this, scored to lush pop: Douglas Sirk for the age of Botox. But “Revenge” is too juicy to write off as junk. It’s got strong performances, from actors who don’t condescend to their flamboyant dialogue. And it has a few intriguing modern elements—among other things, it’s as obsessed with paranoid voyeurism as Showtime’s “Homeland.” Every once in a while, I imagine that Emily was institutionalized for a reason; maybe she’s hallucinating this whole scheme? If she has a dark passenger, it’s probably Bernie Madoff. ♦ Read more http://www.newyorker...m#ixzz1gYrhD8w0 (the majority of the review is one of Dexter which I am 100% in agreement with about why this season has been such a huge let down and why the thought of two more seasons in this direction seems almost like a point to stop watching).

Oh for sure--either one would at least, I'm nearly positive, been *interesting* even if they had failed at the soap format spectacularly.

Wait the same link says August Wilson was also approached which would make him the first black HW. I LOVE the plays of Wilson and they definitely are soapy but... Really? lolI know it's Wiki but this seems too random for someone to make up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Marland#Loving (in the post death area)

I randomly read on the Dopuglas Marland Wiki page that hwen he pased away, they considered hiring Alice Munro as his replacement. This kinda shocked me--has anyone heard anything about this? She's one of my all time fave short story writers--and spent a lot of her time where I'm from in Victoria BC (where the biggest bookstore is actually Monroe's Books) as well as still getting published often by the New Yorker, and she definitely has a keen Chekovian sense of emotion, drama and particularly female characters, even if the drama is often lower key although can be quite devestating (the Canadian lit genre of Southern Gothic--as opposed to American Southern gothic was practically created by her). But to my knowledge not only has she never written a long form story let alone ANY dramatic writing (film, theatre, TV--though Sarah Polly adapted a short story of hers for her much praised movie Away From Her). So this just seems SO random to me--and I've never heard Alice talk about soaps or TV, and by the early 90s when she would have been already, she was such a successful and awarded short story writer she wouldn't have needed the money... So anything know any more? This would have been right after OLTL hired an untested author in Michael Malone and already was seeing some success--so maybe others wanted to try something similar? (Michael Malone is a successful writer but I'd argue Alice Monroe is a better known one...)

I cahnot believe she did that Playboy Bunny-ish pose! Granted, in a turtleneck...

From all I've read, Granger never really got a fair shake. But yeah--that remote was well advertised (I think Ava and Jeremy were even on Live with Regis and Kathie Lee) and was pretty awful. Granted, I had no idea who Faison was, but he didn't even seem to have any use or connection to Loving.

I will have to try to find, or pay more attention, to Genovese's reviews, because those are great, intelligent reads. It sounds like (from the few episodes I've seen and story outlines I've read), he's pretty much on the money. Agnes Nixon was writing then--from all I can figure out, though dates are so complicated to track down--and it does sound like, for the worst and maybe under pressure--Agnes was trying to restructure it into a more traidtional soap to gain ratings.

That Marlena piece is interesting. I didn't know that GH was definied by You're Dead back in 1990. Or that Agnes Nixon had always acted as consultant for the show, but since it was always owned by her, that makes sense. It does seem that she was always slightly at a loss in regards to a vision for Loving. I know that the instigation to create the show seemed to be a combination of ABC pressure and the Dan Wakefield interest, so I wonder if that was part of her lack of a clear vision, and you still get a sense that her heart was more into AMC (although when I watched Loving I still think her brief 1994 return was pretty great--as outlandish as stories were). While I think comparing it to Barbara Cartwright makes me think Marlena never tried to read any of her novels, I think some of that critique does ring true for what I know of Loving during the time. I still always wonder about the choice of name, and the Johnny Mathis theme certainly didn't help--I can't picture any man (except someone looking for camp) or most women tuning into the opening credits of the time and sticking with it.

It's true, and there was speculation at the time (of the City anyway--I didn't read the soap press during the end of Loving) that Agnes Nixon w as active enough that she helped bring The City not just to creation, but after it's first period (with the rather lame repeat serial killer story) into better focus, which (I felt--even with hackneyed stories like the Tony/Ally/Calra triangle) it was. I know Harding Lemay was infamously not a fan of The City when asked to view it, but I wonder how much he watched, because it did get a sense of generations and family once Tracy came on. (Of course he was apparently briefly a consultant on all the ABC soaps and I'm not sure his opinion, listened to or not, did any good for any of them at that time) I suspect that Debbi got over it by the time she joined Loving--but I could be wrong. Regardless it was a big mistake to not have her briefly visit Pine Valley on her way to Corinth and try to help viwers know she would be on the show--I don't even remember many promos. (Then again, I'm not sure if the Loving/AMC crossovers in 91 or 92 helped ratings at all--would be curious to know--even if it was what got me to watch Loving, a soap I had never even HEARD of before). Forgot to mention in regards to the clips, that I really loved the character of Lorraine and how she grew from Loving to The City--I think I'm VERY much in the minority there.

Those are terrific clips. Probably mainly because of Debbi, but Angie was written so consistently well throughout her different eras and shows. While the age difference is hard to get past, Frankie here (unlike when olive was in the role) also jives well with Cornelius in the role. Whille I'm starting to wonder if Brown/Esensten's writing was only so strong on Loving and--mostly--City because Agnes Nixon was "creative consultant" they also always did well with those characters, Angie's role on Loving only really starting to fit during Agnes Nixon's brief return and then when they took over. On AMC too, Jessie and Angie's story was one of the few standouts during their year (and I don't buy the belief that Agnes must have written all their scenes LOL). It's probably only because they were at AMC that we got any mention of how random it was that Angie had an ex husband who was Cassie's father who looked just like him... (though we'll forget that Jacob did briefly meet Jesse's ghost on Loving...)

I think Lily could have slowly been turned into a successful ingenue--it seems so wrong headed, as entertaining as some scenes were, to bring her back as the man stealing vixen when she came back as a recast, but I *think* that was after Agnes Nixon left again. Merrill and Roger would tick off soap fans--i get your point--at the same time, it seems like a brave, different type of story, still very much int he soap mode for the show. I wish Marland were still alive (for many reasons, but) so we could hear his thoughts about his time at Loving, why he asked to have his name removed as co creator, or that Agnes Nixon was more forthcoming (I still hope she has some sort of tell all book waiting in a vault to be published when she leaves us). I've read various things about some of the initial setup being still the work of Dan Wakefield when he was meant to be co-creator--I've read one of his novels and it was very strong (Going All the Way from the 70s which was made into a decent movie in the late 90s and shows strong character writing), and of course I think All Her Children is one of the best books on soaps, but I don't know his tv work at all--he did the much beloved, lightly serialized teen drama James at 15/16 which was a critical hit but never did well with ratings. A few decent looking clips are online, and I know Kevin Williamson claims that it was his top influence on Dawson's Creek (not sure if that's an endorsement or not), but it would be interesting to hear from Wakefield himself about why he decided writing a soap was too much for him.

She really does seem like an Erica/Tina hybrid--and I admit she seems more like Erica in some ways--at least vintage Erica--than Lisa Peluso did. Was RM introduced when Agnes came to Loving as full time HW?

Max, sorry it took me so long to find this. I do agree with you, but I stand by the fact that P&G were relatively late to the game with their progressive storytelling (with both major CBS shows--particularly ATWT, it took Marland to do that--which he did VERY well, and Lemay's AW as admirable and theatrical as it was didn't particularly make a point of dealing with social issues--nor should it have--but for all its sophisticated drama and psychology it was still very much white--in fact I've heard it suggested both GL and AW regressed from Agnes Nixon's slight efforts to integrate them in the 60s after she left). AMC, was kinda disliked by the soap press especially for a while partly due to its social stories which seemed to get it--and OLTL to a lesser degree--an audience of younger viewers who didn't watch soaps before. While an illegal abortion is in some ways more shocking it also was a trait of melodrama, going back to Tennessee Williams in the 40s if not more. Many say Irna Phillips (with Bill Bell--who later did melodrama to perfection on his own at DAYS) spent her first year creating AW on high melodrama in an attempt to get instant ratings but her heart never felt into it and it was a poor fit for her, and it sounds like people thought the abortion story was very poorly handled and just a plot driven excuse. Regardless, illegal abortions had been handled, probably not well, on various primetime hospital shows, etc, before--so Erica having the first legal one when the very fact that it WAS legal to have an abortion was still seen by a huge percentage of the population as shocking if not downright wrong IS why AMC got so much attention. But I definitely agree that much of the progress these shows did was forgotten and I think you raise a valid point.

Pamela Blair was one of the breakout stars of Chorus Line. The problem was the original cast were the toast of New York when it premiered, it was such a phenomenon. And then it never really elad to HUGE careers for any of them (Bishop was a successful character actrerss--Gilmore Girls etc--Wayne Cilento became a well paid choreographer, etc). A lot of the cast was very disillusioned by that--I think they all but thought--and they were largely quite young--that it would lead to them being movie stars. They also were mad that they didn't get more than their small royalties--since the musical was based on long recorded sessions of the dancers having drunk discussions with michael Bennett about their experiences which were then crafted into a musical. No one thought it would go beyond off-Broadway, so when it started raking in billions, they were understanably hurt. Pamela Blair was in the 80s outspoken about htat but more recently she has basically come to terms about it and calls Chorus Line the best experience of her life. Either that was after Marlena's column, or (i suspect--all due respect to Marlena) it was earlier but Marlena was basing it on Pamela's famous 80s interviews. WOuld LOVE to be able to compare a review by the same author over the years. I dunno, it does sound liek they were trying to make a statement in a way--but it also sounds liek stories could have gone longer--certainly the original family setups, which were so quickly decimated, had potential for long term story, and we know that some like Lily's were apparently rushed/cut short due to network pressure.

Thius ia a great review--where was it published? It makes it sound that creatively, Loving was still on very strong feet nearly a year into its run. Wasn't this around when Nixon (who apparently did have a lot of overall story say already) replaced Marland as HW? Nixon's Loving seemed to try to make it a more traditional "big business" soap from the get go--a rare case of her really seeming to doubt the direction she started in due to ratings and maybe network pressure--and the fact that so many fo these characters that this critic anyway makes sound so compelling were written off. It's a good point, and not often raised, that the Lily incest story correctly showed that DID personality is almost always caused by sexual abuse usually from a parental figure--years before Malone and Griffith re-wrote Vicki's DID on OLTL. I'd kill to somehow be able to see the first season of Loving. I do really feel from the little I've seen that it was a victim of its times--Agnes and Douglas seemed to really want to return to a low key, 1970s AMC feeling soap, when AMC and all the other soaps (AMC less than many) were starting to go all big city, and maybe that just wasn't enough to quickly catch the audience's attention. Or maybe even in the early 80s things had changed--OLTL and AMC needed a number of years before they made any real impact on ratings. Loving seemed to, within its first year alone, suddenly be under a number of endless re-toolings and changes in direction when maybe it shoudl have gone steady for 3-4 years...

Very late to this thread (as I always am--forget to check out this folder). Yes, Frankie was shooting documentaries and had one about the homeless and drugs in NYC. He filmed a junkie shooting up who then ODed and for the sake of his art he didn't do anything about it (hard to imagine someone raised by Angie would put ambition over humanity...) and then when it was clear he had died he regretted it. Somehow it came out that that was Simone's brother. It was Mia who had a kid with him who had been adopted (he'd been a busy busy guy between Loving and coming back to AMC. What I don't get is if he was in NYC film school why he wasn't on The City, except--I think--for a brief period when it started).

Actually I think they come in at 37 something now--but you're right, I exagerated.

Watching all these classic episodes I didn't realize that even in the mid 90s soaps, without commercials, were around 39 mins... I wonder when they were cut down to 33 or however they are now.

I got the feeling he might have--as it also gave him a chance to be alone in Tyler's and get the speech.