EricMontreal22

From all I've read, Granger never really got a fair shake. But yeah--that remote was well advertised (I think Ava and Jeremy were even on Live with Regis and Kathie Lee) and was pretty awful. Granted, I had no idea who Faison was, but he didn't even seem to have any use or connection to Loving.

I will have to try to find, or pay more attention, to Genovese's reviews, because those are great, intelligent reads. It sounds like (from the few episodes I've seen and story outlines I've read), he's pretty much on the money. Agnes Nixon was writing then--from all I can figure out, though dates are so complicated to track down--and it does sound like, for the worst and maybe under pressure--Agnes was trying to restructure it into a more traidtional soap to gain ratings.

That Marlena piece is interesting. I didn't know that GH was definied by You're Dead back in 1990. Or that Agnes Nixon had always acted as consultant for the show, but since it was always owned by her, that makes sense. It does seem that she was always slightly at a loss in regards to a vision for Loving. I know that the instigation to create the show seemed to be a combination of ABC pressure and the Dan Wakefield interest, so I wonder if that was part of her lack of a clear vision, and you still get a sense that her heart was more into AMC (although when I watched Loving I still think her brief 1994 return was pretty great--as outlandish as stories were). While I think comparing it to Barbara Cartwright makes me think Marlena never tried to read any of her novels, I think some of that critique does ring true for what I know of Loving during the time. I still always wonder about the choice of name, and the Johnny Mathis theme certainly didn't help--I can't picture any man (except someone looking for camp) or most women tuning into the opening credits of the time and sticking with it.

It's true, and there was speculation at the time (of the City anyway--I didn't read the soap press during the end of Loving) that Agnes Nixon w as active enough that she helped bring The City not just to creation, but after it's first period (with the rather lame repeat serial killer story) into better focus, which (I felt--even with hackneyed stories like the Tony/Ally/Calra triangle) it was. I know Harding Lemay was infamously not a fan of The City when asked to view it, but I wonder how much he watched, because it did get a sense of generations and family once Tracy came on. (Of course he was apparently briefly a consultant on all the ABC soaps and I'm not sure his opinion, listened to or not, did any good for any of them at that time) I suspect that Debbi got over it by the time she joined Loving--but I could be wrong. Regardless it was a big mistake to not have her briefly visit Pine Valley on her way to Corinth and try to help viwers know she would be on the show--I don't even remember many promos. (Then again, I'm not sure if the Loving/AMC crossovers in 91 or 92 helped ratings at all--would be curious to know--even if it was what got me to watch Loving, a soap I had never even HEARD of before). Forgot to mention in regards to the clips, that I really loved the character of Lorraine and how she grew from Loving to The City--I think I'm VERY much in the minority there.

Those are terrific clips. Probably mainly because of Debbi, but Angie was written so consistently well throughout her different eras and shows. While the age difference is hard to get past, Frankie here (unlike when olive was in the role) also jives well with Cornelius in the role. Whille I'm starting to wonder if Brown/Esensten's writing was only so strong on Loving and--mostly--City because Agnes Nixon was "creative consultant" they also always did well with those characters, Angie's role on Loving only really starting to fit during Agnes Nixon's brief return and then when they took over. On AMC too, Jessie and Angie's story was one of the few standouts during their year (and I don't buy the belief that Agnes must have written all their scenes LOL). It's probably only because they were at AMC that we got any mention of how random it was that Angie had an ex husband who was Cassie's father who looked just like him... (though we'll forget that Jacob did briefly meet Jesse's ghost on Loving...)

I think Lily could have slowly been turned into a successful ingenue--it seems so wrong headed, as entertaining as some scenes were, to bring her back as the man stealing vixen when she came back as a recast, but I *think* that was after Agnes Nixon left again. Merrill and Roger would tick off soap fans--i get your point--at the same time, it seems like a brave, different type of story, still very much int he soap mode for the show. I wish Marland were still alive (for many reasons, but) so we could hear his thoughts about his time at Loving, why he asked to have his name removed as co creator, or that Agnes Nixon was more forthcoming (I still hope she has some sort of tell all book waiting in a vault to be published when she leaves us). I've read various things about some of the initial setup being still the work of Dan Wakefield when he was meant to be co-creator--I've read one of his novels and it was very strong (Going All the Way from the 70s which was made into a decent movie in the late 90s and shows strong character writing), and of course I think All Her Children is one of the best books on soaps, but I don't know his tv work at all--he did the much beloved, lightly serialized teen drama James at 15/16 which was a critical hit but never did well with ratings. A few decent looking clips are online, and I know Kevin Williamson claims that it was his top influence on Dawson's Creek (not sure if that's an endorsement or not), but it would be interesting to hear from Wakefield himself about why he decided writing a soap was too much for him.

She really does seem like an Erica/Tina hybrid--and I admit she seems more like Erica in some ways--at least vintage Erica--than Lisa Peluso did. Was RM introduced when Agnes came to Loving as full time HW?

Max, sorry it took me so long to find this. I do agree with you, but I stand by the fact that P&G were relatively late to the game with their progressive storytelling (with both major CBS shows--particularly ATWT, it took Marland to do that--which he did VERY well, and Lemay's AW as admirable and theatrical as it was didn't particularly make a point of dealing with social issues--nor should it have--but for all its sophisticated drama and psychology it was still very much white--in fact I've heard it suggested both GL and AW regressed from Agnes Nixon's slight efforts to integrate them in the 60s after she left). AMC, was kinda disliked by the soap press especially for a while partly due to its social stories which seemed to get it--and OLTL to a lesser degree--an audience of younger viewers who didn't watch soaps before. While an illegal abortion is in some ways more shocking it also was a trait of melodrama, going back to Tennessee Williams in the 40s if not more. Many say Irna Phillips (with Bill Bell--who later did melodrama to perfection on his own at DAYS) spent her first year creating AW on high melodrama in an attempt to get instant ratings but her heart never felt into it and it was a poor fit for her, and it sounds like people thought the abortion story was very poorly handled and just a plot driven excuse. Regardless, illegal abortions had been handled, probably not well, on various primetime hospital shows, etc, before--so Erica having the first legal one when the very fact that it WAS legal to have an abortion was still seen by a huge percentage of the population as shocking if not downright wrong IS why AMC got so much attention. But I definitely agree that much of the progress these shows did was forgotten and I think you raise a valid point.

Pamela Blair was one of the breakout stars of Chorus Line. The problem was the original cast were the toast of New York when it premiered, it was such a phenomenon. And then it never really elad to HUGE careers for any of them (Bishop was a successful character actrerss--Gilmore Girls etc--Wayne Cilento became a well paid choreographer, etc). A lot of the cast was very disillusioned by that--I think they all but thought--and they were largely quite young--that it would lead to them being movie stars. They also were mad that they didn't get more than their small royalties--since the musical was based on long recorded sessions of the dancers having drunk discussions with michael Bennett about their experiences which were then crafted into a musical. No one thought it would go beyond off-Broadway, so when it started raking in billions, they were understanably hurt. Pamela Blair was in the 80s outspoken about htat but more recently she has basically come to terms about it and calls Chorus Line the best experience of her life. Either that was after Marlena's column, or (i suspect--all due respect to Marlena) it was earlier but Marlena was basing it on Pamela's famous 80s interviews. WOuld LOVE to be able to compare a review by the same author over the years. I dunno, it does sound liek they were trying to make a statement in a way--but it also sounds liek stories could have gone longer--certainly the original family setups, which were so quickly decimated, had potential for long term story, and we know that some like Lily's were apparently rushed/cut short due to network pressure.

Thius ia a great review--where was it published? It makes it sound that creatively, Loving was still on very strong feet nearly a year into its run. Wasn't this around when Nixon (who apparently did have a lot of overall story say already) replaced Marland as HW? Nixon's Loving seemed to try to make it a more traditional "big business" soap from the get go--a rare case of her really seeming to doubt the direction she started in due to ratings and maybe network pressure--and the fact that so many fo these characters that this critic anyway makes sound so compelling were written off. It's a good point, and not often raised, that the Lily incest story correctly showed that DID personality is almost always caused by sexual abuse usually from a parental figure--years before Malone and Griffith re-wrote Vicki's DID on OLTL. I'd kill to somehow be able to see the first season of Loving. I do really feel from the little I've seen that it was a victim of its times--Agnes and Douglas seemed to really want to return to a low key, 1970s AMC feeling soap, when AMC and all the other soaps (AMC less than many) were starting to go all big city, and maybe that just wasn't enough to quickly catch the audience's attention. Or maybe even in the early 80s things had changed--OLTL and AMC needed a number of years before they made any real impact on ratings. Loving seemed to, within its first year alone, suddenly be under a number of endless re-toolings and changes in direction when maybe it shoudl have gone steady for 3-4 years...

Very late to this thread (as I always am--forget to check out this folder). Yes, Frankie was shooting documentaries and had one about the homeless and drugs in NYC. He filmed a junkie shooting up who then ODed and for the sake of his art he didn't do anything about it (hard to imagine someone raised by Angie would put ambition over humanity...) and then when it was clear he had died he regretted it. Somehow it came out that that was Simone's brother. It was Mia who had a kid with him who had been adopted (he'd been a busy busy guy between Loving and coming back to AMC. What I don't get is if he was in NYC film school why he wasn't on The City, except--I think--for a brief period when it started).

Actually I think they come in at 37 something now--but you're right, I exagerated.

Watching all these classic episodes I didn't realize that even in the mid 90s soaps, without commercials, were around 39 mins... I wonder when they were cut down to 33 or however they are now.

I got the feeling he might have--as it also gave him a chance to be alone in Tyler's and get the speech.

Right, I thought there would be no way Carla would come back for one episode...

OK I'm confused. Carla made an appearance on OLTL in 2000??? This is from Wikipedia under Carla Gray: In September 1985, Carla accepted a job in Arizona similar to what she was doing in Llanview. She left with her mother Sadie and moved to Arizona. Soon after Ed and their son Josh, left town and moved to Arizona to be with them. Sadie died off-screen in the 1990s - but Carla, Ed and Josh came back to Llanview after Ed and Carla's grandson (Josh's son), Jared Hall (Herve Clermont) came to town and fell in love with Rachel Gannon in 2000. Now I do remember Ed coming for Jared's trial and quickly disappearing as Jared did, but not Carla...

I really appreciate you continuing to post these 1996 episodes--as I always forget to check and would miss them otherwise.

Yes, I'm excited she's joined the show. I'm starting to have a hard time waiting till April for this. (but for some reason the video won't play here, on ent weekly's link or the HBO website--must be a Canada thing, boo.)

Ashley turning on Emily was way too rushed IMHO. Up until last week she never seemed to even be slightly annoyed with Emiuly--even when she was mean to Tyler on their group date, and then suddenly she pretty much hates her?

Numbered for 20 years? I do get your point though.

Ha! I forgot she came seeking Brooke's help. I got the feeling that as soon as she appeared they knew it was an exit for good, after two recasts of Pierce. Incidentally there was a funny bit in the essay in Worlds Without End that mentions polls done towards gay male viewers about soaps (and AMC in specific which they claim had the highest gay male viewership--this was 1996/7), and they said people on the show were surprised that more women found Chris Bruno as Michael one of the hottest actors on the show than gay men--who generally picked the first Pierce as their favorite.

I loved that bit where she fell actually. To be fair, Brooke had a house before, the one on Phoebe's property, and they hadn't shown the legit Tyler set for AGES (was it even shown in the 90s?)--but I do believe RW probably did at least partially need that wheelchair, as you say, though perhaps it was for insurane reasons. Certainly James Mitchell was very frail his last appearances and always sitting down, but not in a wheelchair (same with Eileen Herlie although she seemed remarkably strong until her very final moments).

Right and there's definitely hinted a lesbian Single White Female vibe with "Amanda" for Emily... That was one thing in the episode I wasn't totally sold on--Jack has been shown as such an upstanding guy--would he really suddenly be into slathering sunscreen on a random, nameless, woman? I mean--it's not completely unbelieveable but...

Right which brought us back to the wonderful (eye oll) character of his ex girlfriend from there whose name I've forgotten...

Yes, they did play that angle of Jason up--which I thought was realistic, if you're going to show someone who was so homophobic (of course it also--I thought--tied into his alcohol problem, seeing Dixie as some sort of saviour, etc).