vetsoapfan

VET - AGAIN, you are incorrect. Those lines are from the script from that show on that date. That was Steve's last episode and it is famous for being his last and Dwyer's last show. Why are you saying otherwise when clearly you are wrong?

I have already addressed this in the correct, ANOTHER WORLD thread, but I'll be happy to explain again. Steven left Bay City for Australia first. Then Mary Matthews passed away in St. Croix. When the family found out about and dealt with Mary's passing, Steve was already gone. Alice had to call him to let him know what had happened. The timeline of events as I have outlined them does not contradict the summary posted on Eddie Drueding's AW homepage, which you are quoting, so I'm not sure why and what you fail to understand.

Well I guess we see things differenlty. The ratings slid badly from Windsor onwards and his notion of "writing it about a town" was insipid IMO. Bad enough that Slesar cut loose so many of the originals, then Winsdsor does the same. If Roy had done the right thing, the ratings would not have dropped.

As for bad writting, again, I have to disagree. Few people have ever said the show was badly written. Slesar may have been fanciful, but he was anything but a bad head writer any more than Windor was. The ratings DID go up during the Slesar year.

During its first four years, 1970 to 1973, the writing was largely very good to excellent. NBC was never very good at building successful soaps and often stepped in way too fast. If execs had done that on ABC, AMC would have been cancelled in a year or so as its ratings were awful for 2.5 years.

Most critics will agree that the show was well written and well acted and well directed, but the change of focus every two years or so was what hurt it in the end and I agree.

Finally, Slesar DID add romance and humor. What were character like Rowena if not for the sake of humor?

The idea of what constitutes quality writing is a personal interpretation. Even writers who are generally considered giants of the genre, like William J. Bell, Douglas Marland, or Harding Lemay have had their detractors. Even comments like "most critics will agree that the show was well written" is subjective; certainly the ones I read during the show's run did not approve of the weaker writers.

Ratings alone do not prove or disprove the quality of the writing either. Henry Slesar was very good at both TEON and SOMERSET. Contrary to your erroneous comments about my previous posts, I never labeled him a "bad headwriter". Rick Edelestein's tenure on HOW TO SURVIVE A MARRIAGE was brilliant, but the ratings tanked. Pamela Long's work on TEXAS was actually quite good, but the ratings never went up enough to keep the show alive. Winsor, an old master at creating successful soap stories, knew what he was doing, and if he had been given a longer time to lure an audience in, he probably would have succeeded. Regardless of great writing, it took Bill Bell a few years to pull in viewers at Y&R, or Claire Labine to attract an audience at RYAN'S HOPE.

Incorrect. Am surprised that someone who who watched if from beginning to end - I did for the most part - has forgotten that Lahoma was at times a comical character, always given some funny lines here and there. Bill Greeley often had funny/sarcastic lines, especially when someone got drunk at the Hayloft; Emily Matson's Aunt Rowena; Rex's Aunt Becky; his housekeeper Frieda Lang; Hilda Benson the astrology lady; Ambrose Ferguson the old geezer Becky dated; Mac Wells who owned the coffee shop...

Of course, careful reading on the thread would allow you to know that Carl had asked me about Roy Winsor's reign, and that's the point in the show's history to which I was referring. Lahoma was gone by then, and as were most of the other characters you referred to. In general, Winsor allowed "normal", everyday characters to have fun and express humor, which not all soap writers do or did. It worked very well.

I would like to see where Parker said that because in another interview, he claims to have left to join OLTL. Hard to know what to believe, but I would be surprised if the stopped the story based on that when the whole storyline was generating lots of press AND viewer interest. Frankly I do not believe it. When execs smell money, they RARELY kill a storyline. I could understand if they were getting heat about it and told them not to do anything like that again. But really, think about it. This was the era of relevance and sex on soaps. Y&R was INFAMOUS for scenes like this and getting good ratings.

P&G was notorious for being conservative, long after other soaps started pushing the envelope. Very possibly certain executives wanted the story dropped for other reasons, and used this "explicit" scene as an excuse. Of course you are free to believe or disbelief any reference to the incident you like, but personally, I'll take Jameson Parker's take on it.

I guess they were more upset if it was a younger man and an older woman in a relationship which wasn't a vamp and a naive young thing.

Some of what you describe with the humor reminds me of ATWT and GL in the late 80's and early 90's - people sitting around making fun.

Yes, light-hearted character moments, with folks having a good time, were also seen on ATWT and TGL. Somerset--and, indeed all soaps--work best when characters can be human, and experience the same ups and downs that we all do in life. Humor is part of the human experience.

I'm amazed that foot-kissing scene ever got on the air in the first place! On Ryan's Hope, Jill was obsessed with toe rings around this time, but I don't think Seneca ever kissed her foot.

It seems like the 70's were the era when soaps were most allowed to take chances, but as we can tell here, that had its limits.

I've always gotten the sense that Veleka was not popular in a lot of her roles, so I wish I could see her as Vicki. I'd love to see Tina Sloan as a neurotic bitch as well.

According to Jameson Parker, the foot kissing was a spontaneous gesture; a decision made on the spur of the moment, which probably would have been vetoed early on if it had actually been in the script. But it's curious that the executives reacted so strongly against it. On the same network, in 1976, DAYS had young Mike Horton sleep with the older Linda Anderson, after decrying the fact that he had been impotent with Trish Clayton during an earlier attempt at love-making. Mike appeared with no shirt, bulging away in some very revealing pajama bottoms, but no firestorm from the network caused the actors to be fired. I guess the executives' ire was arbitrary.

Who were the comical characters on Somerset?

The show didn't have specific "comical characters", but rather, ordinary, regular characters were allowed to joke around with each other, be amusing, have fun. Just like in real life. It was great.

Did the Roy Winsor keep Slesar's mystery theme or did he go back to melodrama?

Winsor was great, because he mixed suspense stories with family drama, romance, and lots of warmth and humor. I think that by the time he took over the reigns, the general audience had been burned by Somerset's bad years and tepid writing, and weren't interested in giving it another chance, which is a shame, because if they had tuned in, they would have been treated to the work of (IMHO) the best writer the show ever had. I thought Winsor was even better suited for Somerset than the great Henry Slesar, because of the romance and humor angles he added.

With respect, you are incorrect. Reinholt's last episode was the very same one in which Mary died. See:

MARCH 28, 1975 (EP. #2708)

Rachel wished Steve a good journey when he phoned to arrange to say goodbye to Jamie. Steve told Alice the project was his opportunity to leave his mark on the world when she was sad about leaving their house, even if it was only temporary. Steve and Alice phoned Mary and Jim with their news. Jamie told Steve the house wouldn't be the same without him. Steve said goodbye to Jamie, then Alice made ready to take Steve to the airport. Jim woke up from a nap to find Mary had passed away in a chair on the terrace.

Jamie: "[THROWS HIMSELF IN HIS ARMS] I'll miss you, Dad."

Steve: "And I'll miss you."

Jamie: "[HE LOOKS AT STEVE] Bye, Dad..."

Steve: "Bye, son... [JAMIE TURNS QUICKLY AND GOES OUT]

Jim: "[HE KISSES HER] Thank you, darling..."

Mary: "For what?"

Jim: "For sharing my life... I've been wondering what I would have done without you."

Mary: "We don't have to wonder things like that, do we? Now, you get your rest-"

Jim: "I'll just give Pat a ring. You want to talk to her?"

Mary: "Yes, I'll be right in. [JIM GOES INSIDE. MARY RISES AND LIZ GOES TO HER]"

Liz: "Oh, Mary."

Mary: "What is it?"

Liz: "Do you realize what a lucky woman you are?"

Mary: (Exit Line) "Yes, I do... And I'm grateful to Jim for making my life so much easier than most people's. Now, do you want to say hello to Pat?"

Liz: "No, you and Jim talk to her. I'll go find some more shells for that necklace for Marianne. Give them all my love, will you. [sHE HURRIES OUT, AND MARY STARES AFTER HER THOUGHTFULLY, THEN GOES INTO THE HOUSE]"

Alice: "Darling, can we just walk around the house once before we leave?"

Steve: (Exit Line) "Sure... I'm going to miss this as much as Jamie will. [HE TAKES HER HAND AND THEY GO OUT]"

'ST. CROIX TERRACE. THE SUNSET IS REFLECTED ON THE TERRACE. JIM ENTERS, STRETCHING.'

Jim: "Mary, I didn't mean to sleep so long... I thought you were going to wake me. [HE LOOKS AT HER. SHE'S IN THE CHAIR, WITH HER BACK TO HIM, HER HEAD TURNED TO ONE SIDE.] Mary? We should get ready for dinner. [HE GOES TOWARD HER AND THEN STOPS, STARING AT HER. HE SEES HER MAGAZINE FALLEN TO THE FLOOR AND THE TEA GLASS SHATTERED BY IT.] Oh, no! Mary! Mary! [HE GOES TO HER, AND THEN TURNS TO LIZ, WHO'S COME TO THE DOOR]

Liz: "What is it, Jim?"

Jim: "Call a doctor, Liz... Something's wrong with Mary! [HE LEANS OVER MARY, AND LIZ BACKS AWAY SLOWLY, THEN TURNS AND HURRIES INTO THE HOUSE]"

In the episode dealing with Mary Matthews' death, everyone found out about her passing after Steven had left Bay City. He was already out of the country, which is why Alice had to make a long-distance phone call to him from her sister's house. She postponed her own plans to join him in Australia because of her mom's death.

I thought she was around a lot longer than that. Thanks.

So Ellen - the only remaining original cast member - wasn't even there at the end? That's a shame.

I wonder why they treated her that way, since she'd been so popular on AW. Executives always ruin things.

No, Ellen Grant was not there at the end of the series. The last we heard about her, several characters were having dinner at a restaurant, and Jerry kane asked if anyone had heard from Ellen Grant lately. He was told that she had been away, on a cruise with her sister India,

As for why network executive are so abusive...only God knows, Their attitude and behavior has certainly decimated more than one soap over the years.</p>

Avis was on around a year? I can't remember. I wish I could see her.

Did you see Vicki Paisley as a great character (as some soap critics did)? What about the Ellen/Dale romance? Do you think it shouldn't have been ended?

Vicki Paisley was a great character; very fun, charming, charismatic, and a little bit naughty. Think Lorie Brooks on Y&R. Or 1970s Julie on DOOL. Veleka Gray was perfect in the role. She could make you vexed at her character's machinations, yet understand and feel sympathy for her at the same time.

The Ellen/Dale romance was considered quite daring for its time. It might have lasted longer if they hadn't pushed the envelope in certain ways. Molly Picon's character made the comment once about his pants always being "good and tight, let me tell you!" which I thought would surely raise the ire of conservative viewers if not the censors. At one point later, they had Ellen and Dale in the Grant living room, with Ellen sitting barefoot on the sofa. Dale took one of her feet to his mouth and kissed it playfully, which DID end up causing trouble behind the scenes. Jameson Parker admitted that TPTB found the gesture too provocative, too sexual, and ruled that Dale be written out of the show. They decreed that Ellen should have a more mature, discreet (i.e. non-hot, non sexual) romantic partner from then on. It was a mistake, I think, because at that time, viewers were more sophisticated than the reactionary executives gave them credit for.

What did you feel about Audrey Landers, Sigourney Weaver, Ted Danson, Jobeth Williams? Did you think they'd go on to big things?

I always wonder if the last year of the show was the big improvement which some of the soap press said.

Sorry to keep asking questions.

As someone who watched the show religiously from beginning to end, it's always struck me that some of the actors whom I thought were destined for bigger and better things never found the fame they deserved. Both Gary Swanson and (particularly) Gene Bua were extraordinarily attractive, personable and charismatic; perfect romantic leading men material, but neither one of them had much mainstream success. Jobeth Williams was quite appealing on the show; very likeable, right from the start. Ted Danson and Sigourney Weaver were good, but no better or no worse (IMHO) than many other competent soap actors have been. Audrey Landers was a curious case. She was not a good actress, and had limited range, but she still exuded an indefinable "star appeal" that made you want to watch her, and have her on the show.

Wow, I'd never heard this. That's one of the most insane reasons to quit a job - she didn't seem to do a lot of acting after this, did she?

I appreciate all the analysis on the show's early years, and the cast list. I didn't realize they had so many AW crossovers, or that we saw Liz so much (what was Liz doing in 1971, since Missy was gone by then).

Do you think they should have recast India when Marie Wallace left?

In an on-line audio interview with Rioux, she explained that she had left the show after difficulty with executives who bullied her and told her they were going to fire her. She never mentioned any problems with homosexuals making her flee. I'd love to see a link to the "homosexual" quote. As you say, Carl, that would have been an extraordinarily absurd reason to quit any job.

That is interesting.  I didn't realize he did that.    I don't mind soap days that last forever, but like the idea of one episode/one soap day, but how did Friday cliffhangers work?   I just wish they would go back to longer scenes.  I was watching LIAMST on Youtube.  There was only one scene per act, but the show really moved.  Each scene had a beginning, middle and end.  By the end of the show you felt like a lot had been accomplished

When there was an exciting event at the end of one episode (for example, a Friday cliffhanger), Winsor generally started the next episode with characters discussing what had happened "yesterday". One time he had two episodes dealing with the same, one storyline day was when a murder took place at a carnival. But that was rare. Most of the time, as I said, he followed the one episode/one soap day rule. There was a lot of story, a lot of humor, a lot of romance, and the show was great. But he was an expensive writer and when the ratings didn't pick up immediately, he was replaced. It's too bad, because really, in all its run,m the only two truly excellent writers the show had were Winsor and Slesar.

vetsoapfan,

Are the 10th Anniversary show and the Mary Matthews death episode (which I also believe was the last appearance of George Reinholt on the show before being written out in May...?) within the P &amp; G archive on videotape?  I have seen the July 1968 footage (black and white) and Jacquie's Emmy reel (color kinescope clips) along with the September 1974 episode (black and white kinescope), but I was wonder about these other two.  Thank you!

Hi, Zanereed,

Actually, George Reinholt had already been fired, and his character was gone to Australia, when the characters found out about Mary Matthews passing away. In the story, Steven Frame had gone to Sydney, Australia, to oversee business for his company, Frame Enterprises. On the day of Mary's death, we saw Alice alone in her sister's living room, placing a phone call to Steven. Unable to reach him personally, she just left a message for him to call her back as soon as possible. Then she curled up in an armchair, sobbing, &quot;Oh, Mama....&quot; as the scene faded to black, closing the episode. It was quite touching.

I'm not sure exactly what they'll find in the P&amp;G archives. From all accounts, what little they did keep from pre-1979 was not well preserved or documented. I have a tape of the 1974 wedding/tenth anniversary episode, and it's been confirmed that the Mary Matthews death episode is also floating around in the hands of dedicated soap opera collectors. But apparently, P&amp;G never even kept a copy of many historically-significant episodes, like the premiere of SEARCH FOR TOMORROW from 1951, which I also have a videotape of, but P&amp;G doesn't. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they unearth from the archives, and hope for the best.

(I realized I had worded the first paragraph of this post poorly, which has caused some confusion about the timeline of events, so I have tried to clarify it better.)

I like that idea. I know that some other writers stretched things out (I think someone said India being unconscious/bashed over the head went on for weeks).

The longest, single day in s soap opera history must have been the Masquerade Ball on OLTL, when Olympia Buchanan was skulking around. It went on for two months!Laura Horton's pregnancy (with Jennifer Rose)surely holds a record, too. It lasted through two Christmases, LOL!

I would totally buy it even if it was before my time.

The Alice/Steven/Rachel saga is so famous and well-regarded (justifiably so), that I'm sure many folks would line up to buy copies of its classic episodes.We know to exist:

--Steve and Alice meet for the first time at Lenore's and Walter's wedding

--The 10th Anniversary show (featuring Steve and Alive remarrying)

--Mary Matthews' death episode (Good Friday, 1975)

--Various clips of the triangle from 1973/4, from Jacquie Courtney's Emmy reel

These, along with any other unearthed treasures, would be a collector's dream come true.

Thanks. Great interview. I always forget he played Kent on AMC. I think Lee Godart played that role for most of the run didn't he? I wonder if he just magically gained an accent when they replaced Michael?

I think the Dreaming Death story came before the story with Jim and Annabelle. I think it was his first on the show.

The Dreaming Death. UGH. It's my firm belief that these idiotic, low-brow stories lead to the destruction of the soaps (along with gutting core characters and dumbing down the writing in general). Plots like TDD temporarily attracted the fly-by-night teen audience who wanted to see campy stories, but never really became longterm, dedicated fans, but ended up driving away much of the older, veteran audience who had kept the ratings healthy for decades.

It depended on when you watched Somerset. From what I gather, the best period for the show was 1972-74, when Henry Slesar was doing double duty with this show and Edge.

I want to say there were some Nielsen charts that actually showed Somerset's ratings rising to the point where it was at the middle of the daytime pack and showing signs of becoming a hit. Then Slesar was reassigned solely to Edge (in defense of P&G, Edge's ratings were really dropping around this time) and the parade of writers began. From 1974-76, Somerset lurched back and forth between domestic drama and crime drama and really lost a lot of momentum with the stories.

It was around the end where the show got some momentum back, but by that time the damage had been done.

Somerset had a lot of ups and downs, mainly thanks to whoever was writing it at the time. I watched it faithfully, from beginning to end, even when it was a CHORE to do so, LOL. The best periods were definitely when Henry Slesar held the reigns, and later, for several months when Roy Winsor did the writing. Winsor kept things moving very fast, with lots of humor and fun dialogue, and made the choice to have every episode represent an entire day in the lives of the characters (i.e., he didn't have one storyline day run over ten episodes).

April 1974 Daily TV Serials

In the Sexiest Somerset man, I'd vote for Ernest Thompson!

It's too bad that Kin Shriner never found a haircut to suit him.

That never bothered me. I would have been messing up his hair, myself, all day and all night, anyway, if I had had half the chance.ROTF!

I've always wanted to know what happened to Trish Stewart, who was the original Chris Brooks Foster on Y&R. I adored her; she was gorgeous, very personable, and a great actress. After a few appearances on primetime TV, post Y&R, she simply vanished.

http://www.iann.net/movies/time_travellers/cast/trish_stewart_std.jpg

Gorgeous photos of a young Kin Shriner (Scotty). I had such a big-time crush on him! How Laura could abandon such a sweet, sexy Scotty for that repulsive degenerate Luke, I'll never know.

During its heyday, AW was la creme de la creme of daytime drama. The years written by Agnes Nixon and Harding Lemay were superb. They should do a DVD release on all the existing material of the original Alice/Steven/Rachel saga: the best triangle in soap opera history.

1974 episode

Ahh, the halcyon years of AW!