vetsoapfan

In an interview after she had written for TGL for a while, Long admitted that campy, far-fetched plots were not as effective as more realistic, character-driven storytelling. She said that she had learned it was better to "get real". IMHO, her later work showed more maturity than her earlier material. I loathed (and I mean LOATHED) all things Reva, and the low-brow fantasy/sci-fi/camp nonsense that dominated much of the 1980s (not all of which can be blamed on Long, of course). Certain interpersonal relationship material was her forte. Nobody understood the Phillip and Rick relationship as well as she did. The Phillip and Beth romance was sweet and effective. But it was under her and Gail Kobe's reign that the show was decimated in the early 1980s, with essential, viable characters being gratuitously hacked from the canvas, and the era of Meva Shayme (LOL) inflicted upon us, so my overall opinion of Long is not as positive as it could be.

CELEBRATING THE LIGHT

BEST HEADWRITERS:

--Agnes Nixon

--Harding Lemay

BEST PRODUCER:

--Allen Potter

BEST DIRECTOR:

--Ira Cirker

MOST MEMORABLE ICONS:

--The Opening Wreath of Circles

BEST STORYLINE:

--The Alice/Steven/Rachel saga

BEST ACTOR and ACTRESS:

--Beverlee McKinsey (Iris Carrington)

--Douglass Watson (Mac Cory)

LAST GREAT ERA:

--The 1973-4 season was the show's last, best year, IMHO.

CELEBRATING THE LIGHT

BEST HEADWRITERS:

--Irna Phillips

--Agnes Nixon

--The Dobsons

--Douglas Marland

BEST PRODUCER:

--Lucy Ferri Rittenberg

BEST DIRECTORS:

--Ted Corday

--Bruce Barry

MOST MEMORABLE ICONS:

--The Friendship Lamp

--The Destiny Poem

--The Lighthouse

BEST STORYLINES:

--Chuckie White's Death/Meta's Murder Trial

--The Long Destruction of Bert and Bill Bauer's Marriage

--The Roger and Holly Saga

BEST ACTOR and ACTRESS:

--Michael Zaslow (Roger Thorpe)

--Charita Bauer (Bert Bauer)

LAST GREAT ERA:

--Douglas Marland's reign as head writer, although the show rebounded for a time many years later, under the guidance of Nancy Curlee et al.

Harding Lemay criticized some actors, like Virginia Dwyer, for editing or changing their dialogue to better reflect their characters, and then turned around and praised other actors like Constance Ford for doing the exact same thing. He found fault with certain performers like Jacqueline Courtney, for using prompts to help them remember their lines, yet didn't lambast other actors in his book who had more difficulty remembering their lines, such as Hugh Marlowe. It comes across as personal dislike dictating whom he would criticize.

I can't find it either but I have a copy of it.  It's when Rachel is trying to get Alice the hell out of the house she shared with Steve so she can have a place for Steve's son Jamie (and herself, of course).  Alice lost Steve's baby and Rachel hisses to her, "What baby did you ever give him?"  Liz makes this incredible pained face like she's trying to swallow vinegar and glass and Alice roars and lunges at Rachel as Liz holds her back and Rachel scurries down the stairs and out the door.

"We had a kind of love you'll never know." -Rachel to Alice re: Steve

I had it in my "favorites" list on youtube, but it's been deleted, alas. All three actresses in the scene (Jacquie Courtney, Victoria Wyndham and Irene Dailey) hit it out of the park. Those were the days when characterization and interpersonal relationship were at the core of most soaps, and when we, the audience loved the shows the most!

I think late 1984 GL was when they started becoming so focused on plot over character. Just as an example, the Maureen/Ed/Claire/Fletcher mess. Did any of that benefit the characters or have any reason? By the time they got to the Alicia/Charlotte story it's unintentionally hilarious hysteria.

Mimi Torchin once acknowledged that when she spoke with producer Gail Kobe, Kobe was of the opinion that story mattered much more than the characters. IMHO, she simply did not understand TGL, or its rich, character-based history. The damage she did to the series was immense.

The REAL Betsy Stewart! I adored her, and thought all the scenes with her and Kim meeting and talking in the park were so sweet.

To newer viewers it seemed to only be about Susan's affair with Bob.

To the rest of us, it harkened back to Dan Stewart, which was a much bigger rivalry between the women, at least to me.  But rarely mentioned.

As a longtime viewer, the Kim/Dan/Susan conflict ALWAYS remained in my mind whenever Kim and Susan interacted. It gave credibility to why Kim had such a hard time letting go of her anger, and it made the idea of Bob's sleeping with Susan so much worse; so much more of a betrayal. I doubt the more recent writers and producers of the show either knew about that story, or cared to find out, however. Using history was not their strong suit.

I never liked the bickering between them in later years. I thought it was beneath both characters, especially Kim.

It was quite painful to watch careless and/or clueless PTB decimate the integrity of once well-written, nuanced characters. Dreadful writing has crippled more than one legacy character on soaps, alas.

Similarly, when Douglas Marland inherited GUIDING LIGHT (after leaving GH) from the Dobsons in 1980, he commented as well that his predecessors had left the show in terrific shape.

Yes, I remember him saying that, and it was certainly true. Later, when Pat Falken Smith assumed the reigns of TGL from Marland, albeit for a very short time, HE had left the show in great shape for her, just like he had GH.

I would argue that Cenedella was fortunate to have inherited the show from AN since Nixon apparently left AW in good shape.  He didn't have to resuscitate the show the way some HW's do when taking on a new show.

Exactly. You get it. Working with a legend like Nixon, and taking over a stable show that she left in great shape, makes a writer's job much easier, and not everyone is as lucky as Cenedella to be in such a position. When Douglas Marland took over GH in the late 1970s, he inherited a total mess, but he was able to work miracles with the series, and turned it around. When Pat Falken Smith succeeded him, she commented in the press how lucky she was because Marland had worked his butt off for two years and left her a great, well-structured show. It's only logical to accept the fact that inheriting a stable show makes a writer's life easier than inheriting a mess.

Oh God, how mortifiyingly absurd...for the record, during HIS tenure as head writer, the show won TWO awards for its writing...AND Cenedella has at least one highly acclaimed novel to his credit.

So tell me, where is your evidence that Cendella wrote soley off of her ideas? LOL.

I have to say that I am constanly amazed at how often your opinions are NOT rooted in anything factual. Despite all evidence to the contrary, you are ALWAYS right. LOL. Oh well, on with more important things...like paper chasing...

Of course, I never said Cenedella wrote solely off Nixon's ideas. In regards to the Mary Matthews death timeline, I have already and repeatedly corrected the problem. You just cannot let it go, for whatever reason. So in your rush to flame, again, you've gotten yourself confused...again. I cannot spend all my time reminding you that contrasting opinions or reviews are not "wrong" just because they contradict yours. This is a public forum where everyone's views are valid. I am sorry that you cannot control yourself enough to post and act like a rational adult, but for the sake of the board, I hope you make more of an attempt to do so in the future. Remember what I've explained to you multiple times before: this is not a battlefield where one has to "win" the war of opinions. If you disagree with someone, try saying so respectfully. If that is beyond you, simply move on. But your outbursts will not help your case or your credibility, I'm afraid.

Oh God, how stupid...

Yet again, when faced with an opinion you disagree with, you degrade yourself by hurling personal insults. I cannot fathom what...issues drive you to such petulance, but acting out like this is simply not appropriate in these forums. I would respectfully ask you to calm down, and try to reign in your gratuitous aggression in the future. Thank you.

The person who contacted me with episodes of TGL from the mid 1970s was a male, or at least claimed s/he was, LOL.

I asked for a demo tape or sample DVD, making it clear I only wanted to evaluate the quality from various episodes and did not expect him to send me dozens of complete episodes for free. I asked him to copy 2-3 minutes of perhaps five different episodes, and send them to me on a videocassette or DVD, for which I would pay $20.00, including shipping. He became quite angry and accused me of not "trusting" him. Well...duh. of course I was not going going to trust a virtual stranger enough to send him two thousand bucks for material he wouldn't even let me evaluate first. I reiterated my offer of $20.00 for a preview tape, but he simply disappeared, which in itself says a lot.

Breaking up couples is common, but that particular writer (Henry Slesar) had a habit of breaking up couples and NOT allowing them to eventually re-unite.  I think that some viewers become disinterested in their favorite couples and tune the soap opera out.  This may be good for the present storyline, but I don't think that it is good for the eventual outcome.

I think it depends on the couple and how well they are working. Slesar always brought "star couples", with great chemistry, back together, like Adam and Nicole Drake on EDGE. I was surprised that he broke up Laurie and Vic Lamont completely on that same show, however; a move which, if done often enough with couples the audience roots for, can indeed be frustrating for the audience,.

Cenedella was not "lucky," he happens to have been already on the show as one of her two assistant writers BEFORE the Steve-Rachel-Alice story began. Nixon herself credited Cenedella as hugely responsible for the shows success, which came about several years before Reinholt came on the show. It was also Nixon who recommended Cenedella become head writer when she left in February 1969 to concentrate full time on OLTL.

In other words, opinions are one thing - facts often quite another. Some may wish to assume Nixon did not know what she was doing when she hired him AND kept him on the show AND saw to his promotion...I on the other hand, agree with the dear lady - The man was a fine writer.

Yes, Cenedella was very lucky, both to have had Nixon as his boss originally, and then to have her longterm storyline to work with after she left. Who would not benefit from learning and working with one of the masters of the genre? Sadly, as time went on, Cenedella's own material, like Pat's being poisoned by her housekeeper and the tiresome winding down of the Wayne Addison murder mystery, were not as effective as Nixon's great stories. Cenedella may have impressed Nixon as a script writer, working off her ideas, however. Pat Falken Smith praised Margaret DePriest, upon turning over the reigns of DAYS to her, claiming DePriest was a fine writer with a solid background who would "do a very good job". She was proven wrong, too, alas.

I have been wanting to see that too. Kathryn said she added that in herself.

Nobody could fry something to the wall like our Kim. When she called someone "Pal", for example, you KNEW they were in trouble.

There are various episodes of many soaps floating around in the hands of private collectors. The studios and networks may not have cared about preserving the episodes, but die-hard fans sure did. Actors too. Jacquie Courtney said in one interview that she had had kinescope copies made of many of her most significant episodes as Alice Matthews Frame on AW. Now that she has passed away, I imagine her family has inherited them, but of course, that doesn't mean the public will ever have the chance to see or archive them. A private seller contacted me a few years ago, telling me that he had videotaped on Betamax, an entire year of TGL from 1976. The tapes had been for his mother, and after she died, he was willing to sell them. He wanted $2000.00 for (he said) about 260 episodes. There was no way I was going to pay that kind of money for unseen material, with no assurance of its quality, but he did swear up and down that the episodes existed. Whatever happened to them in the end, I have no idea. I'd love to get eps of the show from the mid 1970s, but not at that price!

vetsoapfan,

Is the quality of the 1974 Tenth Anniversary episode that you have videotape quality or color kinescope quality?  I was just curious.  Thank you for any reply.

It's a tape, actually, not any sort of kinescope, and the quality is fine. Better than I thought it would be.

I think that Robert Cenadella was one of the best writers on soap operas.  Somerset was not written poorly during its early months!  One thing that may have hurt it, though, was that so many of the characters from Another World:Bay City crossed over to Somerset for cameo guest appearences.  I had never seen Another World, and the crossovers would sometimes get in the way.

Had Dark Shadows remained as it initially was (not turning into a horror soap opera), I think that Cenedella would have been an EXCELLENT writer or headwriter.

Mr. Slesar has a pattern of breaking up the couples that he inherits or sometimes creates, such as Laurie Ann and Vic on The Edge of Night, Liz and Steve on The Edge of Night, Adam and Roxanne on The Edge of Night, Tony and Jill on Somerset, David and Emily on Somerset, Steve and Deborah on The Edge of Night, Winter and Logan on The Edge of Night, etc.  This sometimes hurts his shows because the audiences are not happy.

To be fair, what long-running soap opera writer does NOT break up popular couples on a regular basis, if only to get the audience agitated enough to tune in regularly, hoping to see the characters reconcile? I think most times, fan know in their hearts that the star-crossed lovers will eventually find their way back together, so they accept and watch the storylines with anticipation of that happening. I do agree that viewers get peeved when incompetent decisions by the powers that be screw up characters' histories. On the soap opera General Hospital, do viewers appreciate how Guza and company destroyed the Luke and Laura legacy? I doubt it. Sadly, in the last decade or more, writing for all the soaps has taken a serious turn for the worse. There are only four soaps still being produced, all in California (how tragic that all the NY soaps are dead), and none of their writers are producing quality material.

Of course, different critics can view the same material and come away with different opinions on its merit. Asserting that another critic's assessment is "ill informed", simply because it contradicts one's own, is akin to proclaiming that no one else can judge a piece of art negatively, because you had once read something, somewhere, praising the art to the sky. Ten different viewers could have judged a show's writing during its first few seasons and all expressed  varying opinions on it. Rationally, since personal opinions cannot be wrong, they should not precipitate any sort of ire among fans. I find it curious, surfing the net, how viewers of such diverse series as STAR TREK to I LOVE LUCY can become livid with rage when other viewers "dare" to have opinions of their own.

Was Cenedella the single worst writer in the history of soaps? No. Was he the best? No. The shows he was involved with benefited from his leaving; AW with Harding Lemay taking over and Somerset with the gifted Henry Slesar assuming the writing reigns. Cenedella was also very fortunate to have Agnes Nixon's long term storyline in place, and to have the wonderful characters and situations she which had evolved, to work with during his tenure on the show. It was Nixon and Lemay, bookending Cenedella's work, who really benefited AW the most.

I've always wondered how Fawne Harriman was on Somerset because the only thing I've ever seen her in was that 1 episode of "Charlie's Angels" she did and I've never read one good thing about her performance in it.  Every comment I've read typically states that she the 1 single client the Angels had where everyone was unanimously rooting for the killer to get her just to shut her up.  I can't recall the title of the episode off the top of my head, but it was Fawne played "Angela" who was a college roommate of Sabrina's who's a stewardess being stalked and left black roses and the Angels have to go undercover at the stewardess school which turns into a take-off on Airport '75 where Kelly has to land a passenger plane.  I do love watching old episodes of episodic 1970s television, though, because you never know what classic soap star of the period you'll end up running into.

Hi, Matt. Those comments about Harriman on Charlie's Angels are hilarious! I thought she was okay on Somerset, but paled in comparison to Renne Jarrett, who was much more charming. I agree about 1970s TV; all sorts of soap stars turn up, which is fun to see!

This isn't it is it?

Oh, no, this suit is MUCH LESS HIDEOUS than her 1976 purple polyester disaster.

Hover mostly seemed to be known for his being big in the "muscle" photo era. I guess that would have been an interesting story for Russ...

Did Groom play out any of the Cindy story?

I believe Groom was there at the beginning of it.

In Lemay's book he made it seem like one of his early stories was killing off Cindy.

Yes, that's right. The Russ/Cindy story was quite touching, although Robert Hover, the second Russ, was rather pallid.