vetsoapfan

I was surprised too. It wasn't very good.

You are being too kind in your description, LOL! It was...offensively boring. Soooo tedious! It was like TPTB were actively trying to annihilate the audience!

Liz Hubbard ad at around 15 minutes.The other woman also looks familiar to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADhKWBZwt0I

The actress in the commercial with Hubbard once played Anne Jeffers on THE GUIDING LIGHT, back in the 1970s.

Stefan and Laura were smokin'!

I always found Luke to be so unappealing; such a degenerate. I never understood his "appeal." I would have accepted Laura and Stefan as a couple, but what I REALLY wanted was for Laura to realize that she had always belonged with Scotty, and reconciled with him.

Gary Tomlin didn't know much about the character of Alice? One of the original cast members and most popular actresses/characters of the 60's and 70's?

I find it incredible if true that there weren't people at P&G or the studio who could advise him. Wouldn't you as a writer want to know what went before as a source of ideas?

Reading through 67 synopses when Ada was introduced,she was blackmailing Liz into paying for a private room at the hospital for her beloved Rachel.

I imagine there were people involved at P&G who remembered the show's history, but not every writer cares enough, or takes the time enough, to do his research. Those of us who followed scribes like Pat Falken Smith, Douglas Marland, Claire Labine, etc., were spoiled, because it was very clear from their material that they had done exhaustive research into their shows' histories. Other writers, not so much. Also, in his autobiography about the time he spent writing AW, Harding Lemay admitted that TPTB at P&G and the network weren't particularly helpful about filling him in on the show's history. He found more background information in fan letters, LOL.

Well from reading the show's synopsis, Alice and Iris didn't like each other around the time Iris came to town b/c Iris' estranged husband, who hired Alice to care for Dennis [iris' son], was falling for her [if I am not mistaken].

Also, I think that around the time of Alice's return, she [Alice] dated Mac while Rachel was involved with David Canary's Steve.

Yes, the Alice/Iris/Iris conflict was developed in the early 1970s, with the Jacqueline Courtney, Beverlee McKinsey, and James Douglas playing the parts. It was great!

The character of Alice came and went several times over the course of the show. A tepid, colorless recast, Linda Borgenson, was playing Alice at the time Rachel and David Canary's Steven Frame were involved. Corrine Jacker was a dreadful writer, and the storyline was a bust, even though Canary did make a pretty good Steven.

It sounds like Gary Tomlin needed a strong co head writer to help him study the history of the show like Pam Long had with Nancy Curlee over at GL.

Alice was a huge character in the 60s and 70s, and having the original actress come back right at the 20th anniversary of the show should have perhaps tipped Tomlin off that this character was important. In fact, wasn't her return one the main reasons the show had a decent increase in ratings during that era? I'm going to guess that her and Rachel didn't really interact all that much during that year long stint except for the one scene of Rachel having amnesia with Alice tearfully saying that she couldn't disclose to Rachel parts of their history due to it being painful to her still.

Yes, certain writers, like Pamela Long on TGL and Hogan Sheffer on ATWT turned out their best work when paired with strong co-headwriters.

Rachel and Alice did share a few, token moments here and there, under Tomlin, but the show never capitalized on their history, or never really reignited their conflict, which would have been a boon for the show.

That's too bad that Suzanne and Sam's marriage didn't work out. I wonder what Sam is up to these days? Retro TV is going to start airing his old syndicated tv show soon. I remember it as "Simon Locke, M.D.," but I think its name was changed to "Police Surgeon," or something similar.

I found a few more synopses. This time related to Michael Horton's impending birth. From the September 22, 1968, "La Crosse Tribune."

Oh, dear God in heaven, Sam Groom's show from the 1970s? That wretched mess? Even today, I remember how bad it was.

I think I remember reading that he wanted to leave, to expand his security business, but I'm not sure.

I felt like Robinson had more chemistry with Leslie Charleson than he did with Denise.

I haven't watched those clips in a few years but my main memory is sad Terri Webber and her bad singing.

I can see why Monty was so horrified by the lighting.

Yes, Michael Gregory chose to leave, which was unfortunate. Chris Robinson was okay, but he lacked the gregarious, easy-going sex-appeal and charm that Gregory exuded.

The story of his life. Seems like he is repeating the same thing at DAYS with many characters, which is why it is so lackluster as of late.

Yep.

What a shame. Jacquie (and her fans) deserved much better.

Yep, again.

How long did the OG version of Rick last into Monty? I've seen him in lots of clips but the show is so boring until Marland arrived. I've never seen what he can do with more meaty material.

I don't remember how long into Monty's reign he played Rick, but he certainly had a great warmth and charisma, and there was good chemistry between him and Denise Alexander. When Chris Robinson took over the role, I found that Rick became more aloof, more reserved, and less charismatic.

Jeff Webber!

The first and better Rick Webber!

In the 1970s, Jeff, Rick, and Scotty Baldwin were all on my "to marry" wishlist!

It sounds like Alice was totally a supporting character, sort of like a greek chorus or a talk-to.. with occasional stories for herself that played like a B or C story.

Do you think had Jacqueline Courtney not been fired, that Alice would have continued to flourish well into the 80s instead of teetering out as the 70s ended? I know her replacement Susan H was a decent replacement and a good actress.. but lacked the charisma that JC had possessed.

The clueless powers that be on so many soaps have decimated their core characters: killing them off or shoving them onto the backburner, over fans' protests, so it's hard to know if Alice would have continued her reign as one of the show's leading heroines.

Susan Harney was adequate, but fans never warmed up to her more matter-of-fact, less emotional version of Alice, and even Harding Lemay admitted that she lacked the star appeal that Courtney exuded. When Courtney returned in 1984, I had high hopes for what the show could do with her, but she was marginalized terribly: kept on the backburner, given little to do, paired with an uninteresting costar, given a dreadful and inappropriate butch haircut, dressed in hideous, mannish clothes...and then fired after a year. The writer, Gary Tomlin, later admitted in an interview that he had not studied the history of the show well enough to understand Alice, and didn't really know the backstory between her and Rachel, which was undoubtedly a principle reason why Courtney's return was a flop.

Is there any video of Susan Trustman playing Pat? I've only seen stills of her. I remember watching in the late seventies when Harding Lemay actually used some of Pat's original story to create a new story with Pat, her daughter Marianne, and the man who came between them, Greg Barnard. Production did a great job of recreating the original story (Pat and Tom Baxter), using Beverly Penberthy and the actor who played Greg.

Yes, I appreciated Lemay's using history in that story, with Pat flashing back to Tom Baxter's death after she had killed Greg Bernard.

There was a continuity error however. In Lemay's story, Pat had supposedly stabbed Tom Baxter to death, but in the original episodes which aired in the 1960s, she had shot him with a gun.

Still, I always appreciate writers mining a show's past for present-day stories.

Summary of a 1974 episode.

Jed Andrews and Laurie Brooks discuss Jed's plans for divorcing his wife, Betty, and the alimony arrangements. After Jed leaves, Brock Reynolds arrives and tells Laurie not to destroy Jed and Betty's marriage. The following events also occur: Stewart Brooks talks to his daughter, Leslie, who is worried about Brad Eliot; Laurie invites Betty over and gives her advice about how to save her marriage with Jed; and Leslie confronts Brad about his deceptive decision to allow others to believe he is dead.

This storyline point was very effective, because it allowed viewers to see that underneath it all, Lorie could actually be sensitive and altruistic...well, to a point, anyway.

Lorie always wanted to be Stuart's good girl and gain his approval, and so she went over to see Betty and tried her best to set the poor, frumpy woman straight. She told Jed's wife that her hairdo and fashion sense were all wrong, and made her look unattractive, and then proceeded to give the woman beauty and fashion advice, and tips on how to be more attractive to her husband. Betty was resistant to change, but Lorie was persistent, LOL.

These were small, character-based scenes, but both effective and memorable.

How I miss the halcyon days of this once-great series!

What interests me is that Alice is basically a supporting character in the first few years..did she do anything of.note pre Rachel's arrival in 1967? Or even after Rachel shows up.but before Steven comes on in 1968?

During the first few years of the series, Alice was indeed a supporting character; the main heroines were Pat and Missy.

When Rachel showed up and married Russ Matthews, however, Alice's role expanded. The newlyweds moved in with Jim and Mary, so Alice and Rachel had a lot of interaction. Rachel grated on Alice's nerves, and Alice could see right through her, so there was a lot of tension in the Matthews home.

I will NEVER forget Rachel manipulating Alice out of her own bedroom (which Rachel wanted for herself because it was bigger than the one Rachel was using.)

I agree with Dan's comment about how disrespectful it was to have that repulsive shoot-out on the show.

The decision to shoot up the Bauer kitchen, an iconic symbol of the series, was inexplicable. It showed how little understanding of the show or its audience TPTB had. Certain decisions would simply infuriate the fans, and alienate them gratuitously.

Imagine DOOL having a Satan-possessed Marlena gleefully masturbating with the Horton family's Christmas ornaments before smashing them into the fireplace.

Or a churlish Sonny being so furious that his mob cannot take over the administration at GH, that he urinates on the picture of Dr. Steve Hardy in the hospital lobby.

UGH!

I had such a long history with The Guiding Light, and loved its storylines and core characters from 1950 to about 1983, and then watched in agony as incompetent, clueless powers that be started dismantling the core and turning the show into a low-brow campfest.

I kept hanging on, but nail by nail, they cemented that coffin shut.

I loathed:

--The 1983/4 cast massacre

--The start of the campy, stupid stories: The Dreaming Death, The Ghost in the Attic, Jonathan Brooks' Talking Computer

--The Grating Reva Show of the 1980s

--The Killing of Maureen Bauer

--The Firing of Michael Zaslow

--History Denied: Brandon Spaulding is Alive! Amanda Wexler is Alan's Sister! Springfield Patriarchs Went Fishing Together!

--The Replacement Beth Raines and her Ill-Defined Characterization

--Cartoon Harley

--The Santos Boobs...er, Mob

--San Cristocrap

--Meva and Crassie, the Shayme Sisters

--Goopy Richard Winslow

--Reva the Ghost

--Reva the Amish Amnesiac

--Reva the San Cristocrapian Queen

--Reva the Clone

--Reva the Illegal-Immigrant Savior

--Reva the Blind

--Reva the Time Traveller

--Reva the Saggy & Bedraggled Object of Every Man's Desire

--Releasing ESSENTIAL Vets like ver Dorn and Garrett

--Peapack

((Sigh))

Unpopular opinion warning:

I agree that killing Maureen was stupid and short-sighted, but I'm so tired of hearing about it like it's the only thing that went wrong in the nineties. In my opinion, GL's wheels didn't come off until sometime between 1994-1996, when the whole thing was handed over to Reva (and to a lesser extent, Phillip and then Harley as well).

There was a lot of great stuff going on before, during, and after Maureen's death. Yes, it was cruel to get rid of her in such a fashion, but I thought some of it (maybe not the events leading up) was heartbreakingly true to life in that we all suffer tragedy and sometimes horrible things happen to people who don't deserve it and the repercussions were played out over the next several years.

But I do agree that Buzz was horrible and if it's true that Maureen was culled to make way for his worthless ass, THAT was the most stupid, unforgivable thing about the whole thing.

Killing off Maureen was far from being the only misstep TGL took in its final decades. The overemphasize on the Reva character, the San Cristocrapian nonsense, the nauseating Santos mob, the reliance on adolescent and cartoon plot devices over character delineation and interpersonal relationships, the destruction of (and contradiction of) history...the list goes on.

However, I have always felt that soap fans will remain loyal to their series, even through periods of bad writing, if the core characters whom they love and want to see remain on-screen. If both the main beloved characters AND the quality of the writing are absent, it's a lose-lose situation, because we have no one left to care for, and the plot mechanics forced upon us by incompetent writers turn us off. That's when the ratings are wont to take a nosedive.

Is this Jacqueline Schultz?

Yes, it is.

Killing off Maureen Bauer was one of the most bone-headed and inexplicable decisions ever made by the powers that be at The Guiding Light.

For YEARS, the fans had been begging for a return to the show's roots, and a return of its core family, the Bauers. Losing Bert was unavoidable, of course, but killing off Bill and Hillary for the sake of a simple-minded short-term story, replacing the affable Mart Hulswit with the more aloof Peter Simon in the role of Ed, and firing Don Stewart and Elvera Roussel as the popular Mike and Hope had a major crippling effect on the show. Ellen Parker's warm, sympathetic portrayal as Maureen allowed her to develop quite nicely into the matriarch role left empty by Charita Bauer's passing, and by killing off Maureen, the show was essentially gutting itself of its heart in order to give us a grating...Buzz. UGH.

I found the Daytime TV Stars article I have on the firing, although it may be the one you already mentioned.

I'll upload it in a little bit.

Who would you have recast Alice with, if you had to choose any actress?

That's a good question.

Courtney was so popular, and so iconic in the role, my first thought would have been NOT to recast the part at all.

If the network or P&G forced me to do so...mmmm.

I have no idea.

What actress would have been your choice?

DRW50!

Thank you so much for finding and sharing those AW articles!

As always, you are amazing.

I have these same articles, but being 100% clueless about how to upload them to the internet, I was frustrated that I could not share them with y'all.

I thought the articles were published in Afternoon TV, but it was actually Daytime TV Stars. (After almost four decades, my memory was fuzzy.)

Do you also have the interview with Jacquie Courtney from LaGuardia's book, or the article with Virginia Dwyer, published after her firing, entitled something like, "I would not die for them!"

I'm also happy to see that magazine cover with Trish Stewart and William Gray Espy. Along with Courtney and a few others, Trish Stewart is one of my absolute favorites. Her Chris Brooks is probably my best-loved Y&R character of all time.

Again, thanks so much for generously sharing your treasures.

What was your view of each of the Alices after Courtney?

Jacqueline Courtney was the definitive Alice, of course, and none of the replacements (whom I always referred to as "the fake Alices") ever really impressed me. Courtney moved over to OLTL on November 12, 1975, and I became a staunch and loyal supporter on that show from that moment on (even though I had already watched and enjoyed it previously).

My rating of the Alices:

Susan Harney: ** (out of four stars)

Wesley Ann Pfenning: BOMB (What was Rauch thinking?!?)

Vana Tribbey: **

Linda Borgeson: *

They might have, although I'm not sure how much fans cared about her Alice.

vetsoapfan, I'm trying to find more of the Reinholt firing stuff I posted, but here's one.

Yes, I had seen that article, but thanks for pointing it out again. Reinholt's ego was out of control, LOL, but he was right to resist Lemay's writing an entirely new and contradictory backstory for Steven Frame, than had originally been played out on screen.

Do you think fans would have been more accepting of it if they had played it out with Susan Harney?

The audience's interest in Alice dwindled significantly after Jacquie Courtney was fired. Even Lemay admitted in his book that despite continued storyline attention paid to the character as played by Susan Harney, Alice was never again a hugely popular character as she had been with Courtney in the role.

So whatever they did with Alice after the replacements started piling on (and most of them were dreadful in the role), the audience wasn't very interested in Alice anymore.