Videnbas

I am not quite sure how to answer that. If by B storyline male you mean any male who isn't Eric or Ridge, then, yeah. (Back in the day I heard it described as the "Non-Forrester Male Syndrome", meaning all men who weren't Forresters tended to get backburnered and/or eventually written out.) As for insufferable, I'd say the "A storyline males" are often worse in that regard.

Yes, I was actually going to delay posting it for a while for that very reason (at least until more posters reached the 1994 episodes), but my enthusiasm got the better of me! I have always loved Anthony's exit storyline because it was so unusually dark and morbid for B&B, and at the same time I remembered that B&B of the mid 90s was pretty crowded with psychos, not all of whom made sense in terms of previous character history (Sly as he was established as a character in 1992 and 1993 would certainly not have done what he did at the end of his run, and Maggie's turn to the dark side was also pretty unexpected). So naturally I was curious when Anthony was introduced which category he would fall into - the "suddenly randomly out of the blue psycho" or the "psycho all along" category. (Of course, in terms of character development and storytelling, the latter is far more satisfying.) Thus my special attention to Anthony's character development, and possible instances of foreshadowing. (#1701 is the biggest one yet.)

Okay, here goes! Anthony Armando - the thesis! 😁 (remember you have been warned) I am now watching early 1994 episodes (and I have watched a lot of old 1995 clips as well), and I have to say I find the character of Anthony Armando absolutely fascinating because of the way his character arc is structured. What really sent me down the rabbit hole regarding Anthony was knowing how his story arc in its entirety will play out, and wondering if the writers had his turn to the (very) dark side planned all along, or if it was an afterthought. And the more I see, the more I think they did at least have some idea (or if not, they retraced their steps and made excellent use of character history). Anthony’s murder of Ivana is, in my opinion, possibly the most evil crime ever committed on this show (even more sadistic and diabolical than any of Sheila’s individual crimes, although of course she beats him in terms of number of victims. But Sheila’s evil is mainly defensive whereas Anthony’s evil is offensive - Sheila is a cornered animal, Anthony is a predator. There is also the element of betrayal - Anthony brutally murdered a woman who loved him and thought that he loved her back - and the way Anthony was not tormented but actually enjoyed thinking about the crime afterwards). And I found it intriguing to check if there were signs early on in Anthony’s character history that he had this extreme darkness in him. So far, I’d say yes, there are signs but they are subtle - so subtle in fact that they could pass for harmless if one did not know anything about his future storylines. But in hindsight, they become major red flags - Anthony’s arrogance, his emotional manipulation, his casual lies, his offer to show Macy his ”dark side”, his crossing lines without asking for consent. Another dead giveaway early on is how Keith relates to him. Keith has always been portrayed as Macy’s ”guardian angel” - he is an excellent judge of character and sees things as they truly are, and he has always been ”pure” in his intentions towards Macy. The way the show contrasts Keith and Anthony is striking, and does a lot to convince me Anthony was always meant to be nefarious, even ”diabolical”. He is the archetypal Big Bad Wolf right from the start. There are also subtle references to classic myths and literature in his storyline - from Little Red Riding Hood to Shakespeare's Othello. But what really blew me away was the incredible "mirror symmetry" going on in Anthony's character arc, right from the very beginning. There are so many plot points and details that first occur in Anthony’s introduction storyline, and then return in a more sinister form, in the reverse order, in his exit storyline. Bear with me... Anthony’s introduction storyline: 1) Macy and Thorne together (starting point)—> 2) Anthony tries to have his way with Macy in her bedroom (kissing and possibly taking advantage of her sexually) but Thorne’s actions prevent him from succeeding—> 3) Anthony’s big ego makes him convinced Macy likes him although she is really furious with him —> 4) Thorne is adamant that Macy should stay away from Anthony and mentions her putting herself in ”harm’s way”—> 5) Anthony challenges Macy to have a drink with him (reverse psychology to keep her from drinking)—> 6) The "Dead Cat Gambit" - Anthony feigns grief over his (non-existent) dead cat in order to win Macy’s sympathies—> 7) Anthony designs a swimsuit for Macy and manipulates it in order to see Macy with her clothes off against her will—> 8)Anthony appears to become involved with another woman (Sally) but in reality still wants Macy 9) Macy turns Anthony down for Thorne—> 10) Thorne and Macy’s relationship changes (they get a divorce)—> 11) Macy involved with Anthony Anthony’s exit storyline: 1) Macy involved with Anthony—> 2) Thorne and Macy’s relationship changes in the opposite direction (they get engaged)—> 3) Macy turns Anthony down for Thorne—> 4) Anthony appears to become involved with another woman (Ivana) but in reality still wants Macy 5) Anthony designs a wedding dress for Macy and manipulates it in order to see Macy with her clothes off against her will 6) The "Dead Fiancée Gambit" - Anthony feigns grief over his dead fiancée (whom he himself brutally murdered) in order to win Macy’s sympathies—> 7) Anthony suggests Macy have a drink with him (hoping she will accept)—> 8)Thorne is adamant that Macy should stay away from Anthony and even escapes from prison to get her away from him—> 9) Anthony’s big ego makes him convinced Macy wants to marry him although she really hates him —> 10) Anthony tries to have his way with Macy in her bedroom (taking advantage of her sexually and then killing her) but Thorne’s actions prevent him from succeeding—> 11) Macy and Thorne together (end point) See the pattern? Anthony’s entire two year run on the show is basically a kind of "palindrome"!

I think Connor didn't become interesting until he was out of Brooke's orbit and hanging out with Karen, Anthony and Macy. Connor and Anthony is the most interesting dynamic I've seen with the Connor character so far (very early 1994). I think after the point where you're at, the two major things that happen are the introductions of James Warwick and Anthony Armando. Both of these are very welcome additions to the show IMO. And interestingly, they serve the EXACT SAME plot function in two different storylines. It's kind of interesting how Ridge's and Thorne's marriages face almost identical challenges at this point, and how Stephanie gets totally involved in saving Ridge's marriage while refusing to lift a finger to save Thorne's. (The character of Anthony I find so fascinating I'm going to write a really long and n̶e̶r̶d̶y̶ overanalytical post about him when I have the time. 😂)

I actually think that going back and watching Karen in 1992-1994, the later development of making her a lesbian makes sense. Karen never did seem comfortable with (straight) sex. And she was really quite different from Caroline, once she got past the phase of trying to transform herself into Caroline. But on the whole, Karen was strangely out of place on B&B. She never really fit in anywhere. However, I did like that she seemed to have a certain kind of common sense and self-awareness, like ending a relationship if it didn't feel right, and thinking responsibly about intimacy. She seemed to grow into a very "balanced" character. But it seemed like TPTB never quite knew what to do with her.

I think the final nail in the coffin of the "real" B&B was when SF and RM left in 2012. Stephanie's absence in particular is a void that the show has never been able to fill. She was truly the center of the show.

I think for me it was more the way the "happy series finale" type scenes in that episode with the voice over and rose petals falling romantically in slow motion were juxtaposed with scenes of a bitter heartbroken Sally over at Spectra. I loved Sally and the Spectras, and Throoke's happy wedding with everyone else celebrating felt kind of like the show was twisting the knife in Sally's heart, while painting her as the unreasonable one for not rejoicing with the others.

Right, the voice over did make it feel like the show was ending, I remember that now. (Although Stephanie giving Brooke away felt more like her resigning to the inevitable after being persuaded to attend, rather than Stephanie genuinely accepting Brooke.) I never did warm up to Brooke and Thorne though - that pairing just left too much destruction in its wake and it was all kind of swept under the rug for their "happily ever after" wedding. So I'm glad the show didn't end with them being end game.

That was exactly what I meant! The first half of 1995, if I remember correctly, was phenomenal. I think it was probably the most action packed period in the history of the show, with Taylor returning from the dead and revealing herself to everyone, Sheila going completely insane with the dungeon and the goodbye party, and Ivana's murder storyline going on all at once. Then all those storylines culminated and were resolved within a very short period of time, leaving very little momentum after the summer. I vaguely remember a D storyline involving a triangle between Jessica, Dylan and Maggie, but not much else. That's why I remember when I watched the entire cast gathered at the Bikini for Thorne and Macy's 1995 wedding I felt almost like the show was ending. There was just nothing very significant left to resolve at that point. Sheila was behind bars, Anthony was behind bars, Ridge had picked a wife, there was a party going on involving every character of the show. I don't recall the show reaching such a natural "end point" before or since.

So, today Dr Finnegan just casually took off his nasal cannula and walked out. Realistically, that was a dumb move that could literally kill him. Or at the very least cause him to turn blue and collapse right in the middle of his heroic display of defiance. Finn is a doctor. Surely he knows what it means to need extra oxygen. Maybe he doesn't need it, but he would have to make sure of that before just getting up and leaving. This is the kind of behavior that makes me think Sheila was right to sedate him because he doesn't seem to have any sense of self preservation.

I think all of them are good. Possibly with the best being 1990 and 1993. But all of these years really have good writing and character development, as well as some great storylines. I don't think there are really any bad years in this early era of B&B. 1987 and 1988 have a different feel to the show from 1989 onwards, due to the introduction of Sally and her gang. I personally love the Spectra side of the show. I think the next "shift" in the show was around 1997/1998 when Amber arrived (I didn't necessarily enjoy Amber, or at least not THAT much of her). But the show was still good, it just didn't have the "magic" of those early years. Then there was another major shift in 2003 (with Nick and Jackie's introduction) and that's when I feel the show started going downhill. My favorite era of the show is roughly 1989-1995.

Yes, a lot of drama packed into one episode! I had forgotten just how much of Brooke's Forrester takeover was motivated by her desire for revenge against Stephanie. The whole office thing was nothing more than a power display, there was no other reason for it. And I like this version of Sheila - trying the best she can to play both sides so that she can ultimately gain something for herself. (By the way, has Sheila's fantasy sequence about Forrester happened yet? It is GOLD! I don't remember which episode it was.) And it is an interesting change of pace to see the normally so "soft" Thorne SCREAMING at Macy. I think the hospital scenes are the real payoff to the alcoholism storyline.

Both Venice and Portofino/Camogli were beautiful! The clip of Thorne and Macy by the lighthouse was in Camogli, and the scene with the two of them standing on a bridge in the pouring rain was in Venice. Both those scenes were visually quite stunning.

I have actually tried while watching the classic episodes to make a list of birth years and birthdays as established or hinted at in dialogue during the early years (before SORASed kids came along and messed up the timeline): Eric: around 1939? Stephanie: around 1942? James Warwick: June 29th, 1957 Ridge: January 28th, 1960 Thorne: 1961 or early 1962 Angela: December 1962 Taylor: Fall 1963 Storm: Fall 1963 Caroline: 1964 Kristen: 1964 Macy: October 23rd, 1965 Brooke: late 1965 or early 1966 Darla: Spring 1967 or 1968 (she and Clarke(?) couldn't agree on her age at her birthday party in 1992) Felicia: 1968? Donna: late 1968 or early 1969 Katie: Spring 1970 (I don't include the kids born on screen because their ages will never make sense.)

I was wondering if anyone else of the "1993 watchers" has reached James Warwick's introduction storyline yet. James Warwick really intrigues me because his storyline is such a refreshing change of pace for this soap - it plays out like a psychological whodunit, and he is an unreliable narrator who constantly keeps you guessing as to whether what he is saying is true, true on a metaphorical level, or not true at all. And some of the ”therapy” scenes are truly riveting and beautifully written, almost poetic. I especially liked the "guided imagery" dialogue. I think the show did a good job portraying a man who is very intelligent and analytical, yet unable to cope with his own emotions and inner demons. There is this ambiguity about him where you don’t know if he’s a victim or a perpetrator until the very last moment. In a way, he is a more sophisticated version of Jake Maclaine (and the parallels between the two storylines are really very striking). James’s confrontation with his father in Scotland had me at the edge of my seat. At the moment, I don't recall if James was ever this interesting again after he was "cured" of his psychological problems.

Li looks like she was raised by wolves. That must have been some crash.

So Sheila (not for lack of trying) actually did manage NOT to kill anyone this time.

Absolutely. Thorne's history with the Spectras went a lot deeper than his history with Brooke. And since they made him a designer it would have been natural for that to play into his storyline.

I thought her behavior with Eric Jr before the wedding was OOC. Even if she is insane, she can still have a consistent personality, and that moment didn't quite fit. Sheila has always had an obsessive fondness for babies and small children. She would not have an "evil stepmother" moment - she would direct her aggression towards the real mother, not the child.

I think part of the reason why these triangles never worked was that as wonderful as Susan Flannery is, she did NOT have romantic chemistry with any of her co-stars. Stephanie and Eric worked as an "old married couple" but she was never believable as "falling in love" with someone new, because the spark and excitement of "new love" was just not in Stephanie's character. Sally had it, and Jackie had it, because they were both very sensual characters, but scenes like Stephanie and Jack going skinny dipping in the pool simply did not ring true on any level.

Yeah, Macy's storyline gets better and better once they start playing all the beats. I actually think they did a good job of making "manic overconfidently sober" Macy somehow more unsettling than "passed out drunk" Macy. LOL, "the grandparents triangle" is a wonderful name! I have to say that my opinion of both Stephanie and Taylor went down a bit because of their disrespect of Sally's engagement to Jack. Taylor was encouraging her father to reconnect with Stephanie, and Stephanie and Jack kissed on his wedding day to Sally. Of course Jack still did have feelings for Stephanie, but it just strikes me that neither Taylor nor Stephanie would accept another woman getting close to their fiancé so close to the wedding, and yet they think it's okay to do it to another engaged woman because the marriage hasn't happened yet. But of course this was "only" Sally Spectra's wedding... I kind of think it ties into the general contempt that Stephanie has always had for Sally and her family. As for Jack, I feel he starts losing momentum as a character right about here. He was the most interesting to me during the poker storyline, and he had some moments with Sally, but Jack and Stephanie just don't generate any sparks to me - they really do have a, well, geriatric feel to them. And the dynamic between him and Taylor is really not that interesting now that their conflict is resolved. I have to say Jack is one character I didn't miss at all once he faded into the background.

I am a bit on the fence about the Spectra revival. It had the potential to work really well either as an homage to the original Spectra gang, or as a new generation of Spectra characters, but the show didn't really invest enough in either of these possibilities. If it was a nod to the original Spectras, they should have played up the parallels between past and present even MORE and really developed modern takes on the old storylines and characters. If it was a new generation of Spectras, they should have made them LESS obvious copies of past characters and instead anchored the new Spectras to actual legacy characters like Macy and CJ. The way it was, I felt they did a bit of both but lost interest too quickly. They lost a lot of momentum by not immediately recasting Thomas so they could have kept the business side going. A lot of the relationships were underdeveloped, like Sally/Coco (who were the equivalent of Sally/Macy and thus should have been central), Coco/RJ (where I feel they should have milked the Romeo and Juliet parallel for all it was worth and really tormented the poor kids), and Sally/Saul (I will NEVER FORGIVE the show for passing up the OBVIOUS opportunity to have Saul unleash all his secret love for Sally in a Broadway style musical number!). I feel the Tawny Moore-like grandmother kind of dominated the group and prevented those other relationships from developing. Like so many other storylines of recent years, the Spectra revival was a premise that had me cheering at first but in the end left me disappointed because it did not live up to its potential.

Same here! The Spectras are my all time favorite group of characters and my main reason for rewatching the classic episodes. And I am still mad over Macy's (pointless and poorly written) second death too - if they hadn't done that, I actually believe the Spectras would have had a fair chance of staying viable past DC's real life death a few years later, and they might still be around today.

Yes! I have been waiting literally for decades for some of these episodes! I can't believe it's finally happening and that we have the complete seasons up until 1994 now! And I'm so glad there's a bunch of us who are watching these 1993 episodes because it's half the fun to have someone to discuss them with!

I agree putting Sheila on the backburner and letting her just be "normal" for a while was a great move. It really raised the stakes because it gave Sheila something to lose - a marriage, a career, a relatively stable state of mind. It makes sense that she would go to great lengths to protect the life she had built for herself, and that in turn opens the door to her desperation and unleashed insanity when she feels that life being threatened. As for Macy's alcoholism, I wonder if it was really that the beginning was rushed, or more like it felt that way because too much of it took place off screen. I have noticed this a lot with Thorne and Macy's storyline in comparison with the Taylor/Ridge/Brooke story. Often, Thorne and Macy's story moves forward with ONLY the essential/pivotal scenes being shown, while Taylor/Ridge/Brooke scenes tend to have a certain built in redundancy and show everyday life and the passing of time (miss a Taylor/Ridge/Brooke scene and you are usually fine, miss a Thorne/Macy scene and you don't know where they live). Look at the number of romantic/domestic scenes with Taylor and Ridge - not all of them are necessary from a narrative point of view but they establish Taylor and Ridge as a stable couple having a home life and a love life. Meanwhile, Thorne and Macy are often only shown when there is a significant shift in their relationship. And this makes some plot points feel rushed because we don't see the groundwork being laid. Another thing that stands out to me about these episodes is how the show is basically divided into two separate parts and there is very little interaction between them. Thorne for example is almost completely absent from the BeLieF storyline.