JoeCool
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10 minutes ago, Errol said:
Heard from people within ABC, as recently as last week, that the network itself isn't being considered for sale. It's the ABC Owned stations that are most in danger of being offloaded. While the stations are all profitable, Disney needs money to help buy up the remaining Hulu assets it doesn't already have.
Here is the money for Hulu:
Disney has the money for Hulu. Don't think ABC stations are in play or ABC overall.
The ESPN gambling venture will make a lot of profits for Disney.
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2 hours ago, Khan said:
I wonder if that could be attributed at least in part to TPTB's decision to streamline the cast, eliminating actors such as Peter Bergman (Cliff), Debbi Morgan (Angie), Robert Gentry (Ross), etc. I could be conflating all the actor exits - I know that Kathleen Noone (Ellen) and Mark LaMura (Mark) left prior; Maurice Benard (Nico), Rosa Nevin (Cecily) and Lauren Holly (Julie) left around the same time as others; and Candace Earley (Donna), Richard Van Vleet (Chuck), Vasili Bogazianos (Benny) and Matthew Cowles (Billy Clyde) maybe left later (followed by Michael E. Knight (Tad))? - but it seems like every ten years or so, AMC would experience some sort of cast purge/"reset"; and this one in particular might have been hard for some fans to take.
Agnes Nixon definitely did a reset in 1989/90. Peter Bergman left for Restless. Debbi Morgan was not happy that Angie and Cliff did not continue and said in an interview she was treated like a second class citizen at AMC because of her color which was untrue and those comments upset Agnes Nixon and prompted a public reply and rebuke from Agnes. Debbi Morgan was shown the door shortly thereafter. Agnes did a purge of the rest. Agnes did that when she took over AW in the 60s. Most of these AMC characters were on the periphery by this time and it was easier for Agnes to create new characters and enhance major storylines. Essentially, Agnes Nixon did what Bill Bell did for Restless when he shifted from the Brooks family to the Newmans and Abbots in the early 80s.
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36 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:
DAYS 10-16-91, 42 min. long but there is a blip of "NBC News Special Report" ... just FYI. Seems maybe an announcement of later given the episode length. I'm just guessing.
Clarence Thomas confirmed to Supreme Court on 10/15/91 could be related to that.
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1 hour ago, kalbir said:
Y&R April 1990 George Rawlins murder and Katherine/Marge storylines were coming to an end.
One Life to Live is tanking. Was Andrea Evans departure in April 1990?
Days got a boost this week. Was this the week that Peter Reckell and Kristian Alfonso returned?
B&B this week Caroline learns of her illness.
Andrea Evans quit in January 1990...she last appeared because of the taping schedule in February/March 1990.
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2 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:
You seem to think I am advocating for these things instead of pointing out that they did start to trend & this is when & this is why.
In fact, besides directing 2 failed soaps & 1 successful soap, Gloria Monty directed a number of Movies Of The Week. That is one of the influences seen, for example, when Luke & Laura went on the run.
I am sorry I did not want to start a debate. I agree with what you said about Monty's effects in the soap world. Monty's movies of the week were average/mediocre at best and she used those in GH to a success sometimes. Monty changed the soap world. Some good things. Some bad things. Overall for me not good. GH is the 80s became rather formulaic and stale and that is why it slipped and Restless overtook it.
6 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:You seem to think I am advocating for these things instead of pointing out that they did start to trend & this is when & this is why.
In fact, besides directing 2 failed soaps & 1 successful soap, Gloria Monty directed a number of Movies Of The Week. That is one of the influences seen, for example, when Luke & Laura went on the run.
Gloria Monty was a good director but overrated as compared to other soap directors and producers and especially overrated against Bill Bell, Agnes Nixon, Douglas Marland, and KatherineFalken Smith.
When Monty returned to GH in the 1990s when it was slipping and ABC sought her help, the same tactics she used with success in the 1980s did not work and she was fired. Monty failed to evolve and adapt and did fully see why strong characters and stories always win.
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9 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:
It is true that what she did, did not ultimately sustain. However, it is not true that these characteristics did not have a lasting effect on soaps in general. You cannot dispute that there has been much more plot-driven & action-driven storytelling throughout daytime since Gloria made GH #1. Same is true with sci-fi elements. Just because Bill Bell did not succumb does not mean most of soapdom was not effected & I would suggest adversely. AMC, examples McTavish & Pratt. We would never have had James Reilly burying Carly alive if not for Gloria Monty 80s GH. Etc.
McTavish was awful in the 1990s and Pratt was terrible. Both were horrible at AMC. I agree about James Reilly In the 1990s the soaps were competing not just with each but cable TV.
Monty did make writers and producers think more about the plot and action/adventure stories and that manifested in many soaps but true storytelling is an artform and Bill Bell as HW for 25 years understood what a great soap needs and what it takes to sustain quality. Monty did not understand those concepts that people like Bill Bell, Douglas Marland, Pat Falken Smith, Agnes Nixon understood and mastered. GH was overrated in the 80s and all the Aztec stories and the gangster stories and adventure stories seemed like bad movies of the week that would never make it in network primetime in the 80s.
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12 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:
Now you've just made me think by bringing up Glo in regard to 1980s trends. Of course, she is responsible for so many changes in soaps. A move away from character-driven stories to action-driven stories or plot-driven. More short scenes. A faster overall pace. More editing within scenes. Cross-cutting edits. More outdoor shooting but not on exotic locale remotes, instead just ordinary outside places. Very long shooting days. Cocaine. Inclusion of Action/Adventure sequences. Inclusion of sci-fi. Cheesy production values. Inclusion of "romcom" stories. Inclusion of Movie of the Week type "from the headlines" stories.
I agree but Gloria's changes did not sustain GH or surpass the expertise of Bill Bell. Bill Bell was the master at storytelling and Restless was always character driven in the 1980s and not have much in action/adventure sequences. Restless had strong stories and strong characters and did not need exotic locales and remotes. AMC also remained character driven in the 80s yes there were some adventure stories but they really were tame as compared to GH. Monty's changes were strong enough to save GH from cancellation then to Number 1 but not enough to sustain it. Strong characters and strong stories always trump. I always thought that GH was overrated in the 80s as compared to AMC, Restless and ATWT.
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@Khan All of what you said is true. However having a weak lead-in did not help AMC compete against Restless. Remember CBS moved up Restless in February 1981 to give Restless a chance to beat AMC. Restless destroyed RH which weakened AMC. Eventually Restless gained an edge over AMC and in 1986 overtook AMC. The point I did not make failed to make previously is if AMC went head to head with Restless it would have been a whole different ratings ballgame. Restless would have been number 1 eventually but I don’t think AMC would have weakened in the period between 85 to 87 if it had the chance too be in the 1230 slot. And yes Loving did not help AMC. Restless destroyed Loving more than it did RH.
AMC never had a strong lead in.Also Bill Bell insisted BB has Restless has its lead in. I wonder why?! Why not ATWT or GL? I do not think BB would have such success not being after Restless. Why not have BB start at 1230 and move Restless to 1 and have BB compete against Loving. BB was an average show until about 1990. Yes Bell was HW for its first 7 years or so but the show did not hit its creative strides until 3 years in.
Timeslot placement is important. I do not think BB would have fared as well against GH and SB either.
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9 minutes ago, Khan said:
I think that probably was their biggest mistake where RH was concerned. Even if expansion potentially meant losing the team that had created the show and brought it its' initial acclaim and accolades, I also think the network might have been more inclined to save the show, rather than give up on it, which they did at a certain point before actually cancelling it.
ABC wanted RH to go from 12PM ET to 1PM ET and have a block of 4 one hour shows then Edge. Labine and Mayer refused to do it in the late 70s/early 80s. Eventually ABC bought RH from Labine and Mayer and then when ABC made some changes in production and behind the scenes, Labine and Mayer wanted to but it back from ABC but that ship sailed. ABC gave RH more than enough time. RH should have been canceled after it could not compete at all against Restless and destroyed any lead-in for AMC. Having RH there so long weakened AMC because it allowed Restless to gain more and more.
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5 minutes ago, Khan said:
I'd have to agree with Agnes Nixon (and with Douglas Marland): if LOVING stood any chance at all of succeeding, it needed to be scheduled between AMC and OLTL. And I say that as someone who disliked LOVING and would have preferred RH getting that slot.
@Khan Ryan's Hope already had the best slot when it premiered in 1975 at 1PM ET. AMC was moved to 12:30PM and lost ground in the ratings. The 1PM slot had no network soap competition. Agnes Nixon was furious with ABC at the time. In 1977, AMC moved back to 1PM and then went to an hour in April 1977. RH moved to 12:30PM. Loving really deserved the 1:30PM slot. Also, ABC wanted to expand RH to an hour but Labine and Mayer refused to do it, then ABC bought it from them.
8 minutes ago, kalbir said:Correction: Y&R and All My Children were head-to-head at 1 pm ET from February 4, 1980 to June 5, 1981. CBS moved Y&R to 12:30 pm ET on June 8, 1981, so Y&R was now head-to-head w/ Ryan's Hope and the first half of All My Children.
@kalbir@Khan Loving was doomed even before it aired. ABC already had 5 soaps and RH and Edge were not doing well. Loving needed the 1:30PM slot and RH and Edge needed to go.
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2 minutes ago, kalbir said:
Correction: Y&R and All My Children were head-to-head at 1 pm ET from February 4, 1980 to June 5, 1981. CBS moved Y&R to 12:30 pm ET on June 8, 1981, so Y&R was now head-to-head w/ Ryan's Hope and the first half of All My Children.
@kalbir Thanks for the correction..dates were mixed up. I corrected it.
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1 hour ago, kalbir said:
With the 1980s ratings now fully posted, lets see how each network stacked up.
CBS was shaken at the beginning of the 1980s with the huge rise of ABC, thus the rearrangements of the schedule and changes to the shows themselves, but ends the decade with Y&R killing it, B&B showing growth, As the World Turns performing strongly, and Guiding Light middle of the pack. Prior to its expansion to 1 hour, Y&R was a Top 3 show but the expansion derailed all its momentum and Y&R doesn't fully recover until the second half of 1982. Y&R would become CBS's highest rated show by 1983 and #1 overall by 1989. As the World Turns remained middle of the pack until it started showing growth in Fall 1986 thanks to Douglas Marland writing. Guiding Light was able to hold its own in the early 1980s against General Hospital and was CBS's highest rated show but with Douglas Marland departure, Gail Kobe/Pamela Long chasing all the 1980s trends, and the writer turnover during the first half of Joe Willmore run, the ratings dropped and Guiding Light ends the 1980s as CBS's lowest rated show. Search for Tomorrow was middle of the pack but P&G was not happy with the time change and CBS had enough of P&G complaining so Search for Tomorrow CBS run came to an end. Capitol was a placeholder/time filler until Bill Bell had another show ready.
ABC started the 1980s with its big three General Hospital, All My Children, One Life to Live killing it and ends the decade with its big three still performing strongly but not as dominant as it was in the beginning of the decade. ABC's weakness was its shows outside the big three. Ryan's Hope was effectively over in 1983 when Y&R blew up, The Edge of Night suffered from lack of clearances, and Loving only made it on the air because of Agnes Nixon clout with ABC.
ABC approached Agnes Nixon, the creator of All My Children and One Life to Live, to create a new soap opera for the ABC afternoon lineup in the early 1980s. ABC wanted a 30-minute program to be added to the lineup. Agnes just finally left her AMC head writing duties in the early 1980s and Agnes approached soap great Douglas Marland to co-create the new ABC drama. Agnes wanted the show to be focused on young love and contemporary social issues. The tentpole family, the wealthy Alden family would be the new drama's prominent family with the blue-collar Donovan family and the backdrop of the small city, Cornith, PA with its promenient University would provide an array of socioeconomic characters in contemporary stories. Loving's Bible indeed filled with young love and the trials and tribulations of the Alden family. The show was initially titled Love Without End. ABC also wanted the show to have stories focused on action and adventure which was not Nixon's and Marland's niche. Loving premiered on June 26, 1983 as a two-hour movie premiere that featured much of the original cast and acclaimed film actors Lloyd Bridges and Geraldine Page.
What doomed Loving from the start was ABC and its interference. Agnes Nixon wanted Loving placed at 1:30PM, sandwiched between All My Children at 12:30PM and One Life to Live at 2PM. AMC would move from 1PM to 12:30PM and compete directly with CBS' Young and the Restless. Y&R and All My Children were head-to-head at 1 pm ET from February 4, 1980 to June 5, 1981. CBS moved Y&R to 12:30 pm ET on June 8, 1981, so Y&R was now head-to-head w/ Ryan's Hope and the first half of All My Children. Agnes wanted a block of her shows in the afternoon and thought Loving would strongly benefit from AMC's strong lead-in. Douglas Marland concurred with Agnes' analysis of Loving's placement.
On Monday, June 27, 1983, ABC placed Loving at 11:30AM ET against the strong second half of the hit game show The Price is Right where Loving garnered low ratings. Agnes Nixon was horrified about ABC’s early morning placement. On October 8, 1984, ABC moved Loving to 12:30PM ET against the Young and the Restless. Nixon stated in interviews and in private that this move was doomed from the start. Nixon again implored ABC to move AMC to 12:30PM ET and place Loving at 1:30PM. Restless destroyed Loving in the ratings. Loving was cancelled in 1995 and ended on Friday, November 10, 1995.
Loving was plagued with a revolving door of writers and producers. Marland and Nixon exited Loving in 1985 and Nixon would return several times to try to save the show. When Nixon returned to AMC in the late 1980s and stayed for several years at AMC, ABC employed its own executives in the early 1990s to write, produce and guide the show -- which proved to be a disaster. Nixon returned in 1993 and stayed until 1995 - the show improved but the damage was done. ABC's failure to follow Nixon's sound advice about Loving's time slot placement is what caused Loving to fail before it even aired and ABC's own disastrous interference in the early 1990s in guiding and running the show further weakened Loving.
Loving should be remembered for its strong storylines featuring major social issues such as incest, alcoholism and post-traumatic stress syndrome of Vietnam veterans and its strong cast. Loving 's strong acting cast included Celeste Holm, Wesley Addy, Nada Rowland, Lisa Peluso, Noelle Beck, Lisa Walters, Lauren Marie Taylor, Laura Wright, Bernard Barrow, John Gabriel, Nancy Addison, Ilene Kristen, Thom Christopher, Perry Stephens, Christine Tudor, Roger Howarth, Augusta Dabney, Catherine Hickland, Matthew Cowles, Pamela Blair, Patricia Barry, Luke Perry, James Kieberd, Susan Keith, Anthony Herrera, Ameila Heinle, Patricia Kalember, Genie Francis and Bryan Cranston.
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45 minutes ago, kalbir said:
I'm sure you've seen the SOD write up for One Life to Life as Most Disappointing Show in 1989.
We know Andrea Evans departs in early 1990 due to unfortunate real-life circumstances. I haven't dived into 1990 ratings yet to see the impact of her departure.
Oh yes, SOD was on point with its analysis of OLTL in 1989. 1990 is not good for OLTL as it slips down to Number 5, Number 6, Number 7 and even Number 8 during some weeks. Andrea Evans' departure caused a nose dive for OLTL. I loved watching Tina...Andrea Evans was awesome..RIP. Overall, the writing went down for OLTL in the early 1990s.
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1 hour ago, JAS0N47 said:
FROM THE VAULT: WEEKLY DAYTIME NIELSEN RATINGS: WEEKS OF 9/18/89-9/22/89 & 9/25/89-9/29/89:
FROM THE VAULT: WEEKLY DAYTIME NIELSEN RATINGS: WEEKS OF 10/2/89-10/6/89 & 10/9/89-10/13/89:
GH and OLTL starting to slip. AMC holding steady and in the Number 3 slot. AW in the 3-4 range..ouch! Also, Days slipping below 5! That HW at Days is awful!
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3 hours ago, kalbir said:
Yes it was. The write up is here.
Yes and I will note All My Children was selected as the best show of 1989. Agnes Nixon returned to AMC as HW in the fall of 1989 and the ratings went up and stabilized. AMC getting back into the top 3 fairly often in 1989 and will cement that position in 1990.
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5 hours ago, JAS0N47 said:
FROM THE VAULT: WEEKLY DAYTIME NIELSEN RATINGS: WEEKS OF 7/24/89-7/28/89 & 7/31/89-8/4/89:
FROM THE VAULT: WEEKLY DAYTIME NIELSEN RATINGS: WEEKS OF 8/7/89-8/11/89 & 8/14/89-8/18/89:
August 1989 was the time All My Children and One Life to Live began to fight for the Number 3 spot. OLTL will start slipping in the ratings and drop. All My Children will firm up the Number 3 slot. GH will also begin to drop and keep Number 2. GH's ratings will slip further in 1990 and AMC will overtake GH for Number 2 in 1990 while OLTL will drop out of the top 5 during 1990 and never again strongly compete in the ratings.
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14 minutes ago, GLATWT88 said:
I agree that YR would have done well either way, its rise to the top wasn't only a matter of a cushy timeslot, but really strong storytelling and soap as well. However, AMC could have held off some of this growth if placed head to head.
I wonder if YR being scheduled so close to local news programs (12:30pm on most east coast affiliates and 11 on the west coast) plays any role in all these preemptions. Although, it does say full preemptions...
Agreed. Restless had great stories. I think Restless would have got to number 1 even if AMC was moved to 12:30PM ET. I think the competition would have been fiercer and the battle between Restless and AMC would have been strong. Bill Bell was a legend and so talented. No show could beat his writing.
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2 minutes ago, Gray Bunny said:
It is pretty strange how at one point, you had ABC's 3 hourlong soaps at the very top of the Nielsens heap, and their 3 half-hour shows at the very bottom. A scheduling change could have helped/saved at least 1 of the weaklings.
Exactly. I agree. ABC was not willing to make the schedule change and lost the daytime ratings crown to CBS. EDGE at 4PM ET was already low on clearance levels. RH and Loving battled clearance issues.
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6 minutes ago, kalbir said:
Yes, that's right. The addition of the Spectra gang is paying off, plus I think we will be seeing clearances increase during the rest of 1989 and into 1990.
I really enjoyed Guiding Light during Robert Calhoun's run and it disappoints me that the ratings didn't reflect the quality of the show. From the annual ratings, GL remains in 7th place in 1989/90 and 1990/91 but the actual ratings drop.
It's so funny that during the second half of 1989 CBS daytime is hitting its stride w/ all four soaps plus the game show block and CBS primetime is in the midst of its third place mess era.
@kalbir CBS Daytime took off in the second half of 1989 and by the end of the year was unstoppable and unbeatable. GH really begins to drop in 1989/early 1990. CBS Primetime was a mess though.
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31 minutes ago, JAS0N47 said:
I never heard of that trial series before. Thanks for the info. Per Nielsen, it was 11:30AM.
FROM THE VAULT: WEEKLY DAYTIME NIELSEN RATINGS: WEEKS OF 5/29/89-6/2/89 & 6/5/89-6/9/89:
FROM THE VAULT: WEEKLY DAYTIME NIELSEN RATINGS: WEEKS OF 6/12/89-6/16/89 & 6/19/89-6/23/89:
@kalbir Also BB showing growth. BB beats ATWT for the first time the week of 6/12 and beats both ATWT and GL both for the first time the week of 6/19.
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13 hours ago, GLATWT88 said:
True. ABC did very little to compete with YR and it ultimately hurt them in the end. Having AMC go up against YR's full hour when it was at its strongest could have taken a bit of steam from YR's engine, especially since AMC remained quite strong ratings wise until the mid-90s.
Instead, ABC decided to have weak soaps or debut new soaps in that very difficult timeslot against YR. It was almost as if YR had a whole half hour without much direct competition to establish itself and gain and grow an audience.
Moving AMC to 12:30 would have been better for ABC. I think though Restless would have still become Number 1 but when and for how long who knows. ABC was not willing to do it and they eventually lost the daytime ratings crown. This is my opinion, I think AMC would have done well going up against Restless and would have done well through the 80s and 90s. I think ABC was too worried and focused on GH than AMC.
AMC also lost ratings momentum in 1975 when it was moved for RH. So I think moving AMC to 12:30 in 1983 would have been a move of strength and would have increased Loving's ratings at 1:30 or if RH went there. RH was awful at 12:30PM. ET in the early 1980s.
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ABC approached Agnes Nixon about creating a 30 minute daytime drama in the early 80s. Why ABC wanted it is beyond me. Agnes always thought Loving was to replace either Edge or RH and she did not want Loving to premiere at 1130AM. RH and Edge were at the bottom of the ratings in the early 1980s and by 1983 were awful ratings wise. ABC should have cancelled either RH or Edge or both. ABC misplayed their hand badly.
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12 minutes ago, Donna L. Bridges said:
And of course it also had problems with clearances which would also have been helped by its being tucked in tight.
ABC Daytime was too rigid in its scheduling and really paid the price in the 1980s. Clearances really doomed RH, Loving and PC and of course Edge. ABC never really recovered once Restless moved to 12:30PM and ABC was not aggressive in trying to lessen Restless. RH overstayed its welcome on ABC and ABC starting Loving at 11:30AM doomed it from the start.
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1 minute ago, Donna L. Bridges said:
@JoeCool & @GLATWT88 Thank you both for replying. I have a sorta fascination with ABC not tucking half hour soaps in between AMC & OLTL. I specifically wish that they had done so with PC. And that one oddball time PC's ratings jump amazes me. I know when Wendy Riche conceived of it, her thought was to begin & end the day with the hospital. But I always thought it should have had AMC as its lead-in.
In the late 70's, Fred Silverman and Jackie Smith created the 3 hour block of 1 hour shows back to back and ABC never wanted to break it up. ABC should have shook up its schedule. because CBS shook up the schedule once Restless went to an hour and eventually Restless went to Number 1 and CBS Daytime went to Number 1.
As for PC - it was doomed going up against Restless just like RH and Loving were destroyed by Restless.
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ABC Daytime
in DTS: Cancelled Soaps
Posted
Hulu will merge with Disney +. Everything will be integrated with Disney +. ESPN app will stay separate.
ESPN will eventually go all streaming and will not be available on cable at all. Disney will make much money that way and then people who dont want ESPN will no longer get it and have to pay for ESPN channels they don't want.