Planet Soap
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Unsuccessful: Rosales family Y&R
Successfully: The Buchannans OLTL in 1979.
We're OLTL's Rapparports considered successful?
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On 1/28/2023 at 9:39 AM, Faulkner said:
I do think, in its weird way, that arrested development is one of the few ways these soaps reflect social trends. Aside from Maura West (whose acting style is sort of a throwback anyway), there aren’t really any performers on soaps in that 40s/50s age range with the kind of gravitas that Beverlee McKinsey and Liz Hubbard and the Y&R actresses you mentioned had when they were the same age.
However, Y&R has essentially snuffed out any opportunities for a new generation, but I guess that’s a feature, not a bug. They’ve clearly given up on any succession plan and are content to be comfort food for their core demographic, riding out to the sunset with the few familiar faces they have and keeping their characters stagnant. At least we’re not seeing any new love interests for Victor anymore.
There really hasn't a been grand dame or domiant patriarch performer the likes of Marj Dusee, Susan Flannery, or Eric Braden and James Mitchell in todays below age 60 class of actors, minus Maura West. Again there is a diiference today in not just how we look but how we carry ourselves.
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7 hours ago, j swift said:
It is amusing to me that in 1973 Juliana McCarthy was 44, Jeanne Cooper was 45, and Dorothy Green was 53. Each played the mother of adult children, and they were considered the "older" generation of the show. Today Amelia Heinle is 49, Sharon Case is 51, and Michelle Stafford is 55 are they are written as perpetual 30-40 somethings who still get annual weddings in sexy white wedding gowns. It just seems like nobody is allowed to age in soaps anymore until they hit their 70s
6 hours ago, Faulkner said:People back then looked and seemed so much older for a lot of different reasons. It’s like the Cheers meme:
Although I like natural aging, the facelift did wonders for Jeanne Cooper both times!
Older Millenials and Gen X, People in their 40s and 50s *thankfully* look younger now. Being in your 60s are becomming more middle aged than seinor citizens now. Especially because of the economy where Gen Z/Younger Mellenials independence, marriage and parenthood is on track to come later in life, the attitudes of 40/50 year olds will be different with this generation. But I do like the sotocism and inner toughness that Kay and Jennifer Brook's generation had.
I will agree that there is an immaturity in the writing given to the Gen Xers: Nick, Sharon, Victoria etc.. Its especially odd (especially on Brooke & Taylor on B&B) to see the helicopter parenting of grown people.
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Its odd seeing everyone treat Esme with kid gloves as if amnesia erases the impact of what you've done to others. I like Laura but she needs to dial down her compassion and forget idea of Esme being a good mother.
Loved Spencer is supporting Cam and that the writers didn't make Cameron do something wrong to facilitate audience acceptance of Joss' cheating.
To my surprise and delight there is virtually zero support for Joss in the YouTube comments. The storyline is being recieved as black and white, Joss is wrong, Cam is the victim. This comared to odd support for Esme during the custody battle, plus the support for some of SJB Carly's antics.
Finally Liz's mother is revealed after all these years!
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AMC: Janet's regression, from the little I saw of it, seems disappointing given the extra lengths they went to redeem her in the 90s. Plus Kate Collins coming back basically undid the charachter's new face.
Y&R: I have to agree on Nick/Victoria and Jack. There's literally no hint that that he was their stepfather at all. Jack & Nikki today are lresented as friends but it's not referenced all that much that they were married. As someone saod earlier its most likely because of all the marital partners they've shared.
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12 hours ago, INFJWill said:
Y&R is especially bad at keeping up those ancillary connections. Both in the case of former friends/lover but also extended family & step children.
For example if you weren't watching back then you'd have no idea Paul & Lauren were once married. I can't remember a solo scene between them post early 2000's.
Also thought it was a missed opportunity ignoring the connection between Kyle & Victor. They shared some really sweet paternal scenes during the Blake Hood/Maura West era. I can't recall MM's Kyle ever crossing paths with Victor.
Ditto for Jack and his former stepchildren. I get why he and Nick wouldn't be super close given the love triangles. But Victoria and him seemingly never interact. Likewise Noah and Jack grew close during his marriage to Sharon, which the writers have collectively decided to pretend never happened.
Other examples...Chance/Chloe, Sharon/Devon & Lily
12 hours ago, j swift said:Can we call it early and put Y&R Jack and his granddaughter Allie on this list?
Also, did anyone on the production staff recall that Cricket was John Abbott's stepdaughter for a moment when he died?
You'd think Sharon would be a close aunt/unnoficial surrogate mother to them especially since Olivia, Malcolm (and now Neil) isn't around but nope. Tey've just erased any idea that Sharon and Dru were best friends--a friendship that I must say felt random.
I've said this before but I dont know what it is about Young and Restless that they are so bad at maintaining past charachter connections and evoking history. They'll take the time to endlessly mention one or two speciffic events like Victor and Nikki's wedding and Katherine's drunken divorce however.
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On 1/22/2023 at 3:42 PM, kalbir said:
It's so funny that NBC dominated primetime for the better part of 20 years (start of The Cosby Show until the end of Friends) yet was mostly a mess in daytime in that same era despite supercouple Days, Santa Barbara Emmy and SOD awards run, and Reilly Days.
What did you all think of Sunset Beach & Passions?
It's really something that all of the big 3 had an area where they struggled. NBC couldn't get daytime right, CBS still can't get morning news right, and ABC (since the late 70s) has had pretty balanced success in daytime, news and primetime.
Slightly off topic but the mid to late 2000s was not a great time for NBC as a whole. Tom Brokaw left Nightly News (he had a solid replacement though) Will & Grace, Friends and Frasier ended, Katie Couric left Today (her replacement was also good), Tim Russert died and Meet the Press hasn't recovered since, Jeff Zucker's leadership didn't help either.
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Y&R: Paul & Lauren
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What is a charachter thats underused (not being given enough story, or not being used to their full potential), or misused (given the wrong storylines or being taken in a direction not best for their charachter).
I'll start.
UNDERUSED-Justin on B&B. We could have really had a months/years long storyline of Justin trying to take over Spencer Publications. Instead we get him begging for forgiveness after trying to send Liam and Bill to jail?
UNDERUSED-Monica GH: all the Q drama going on, yet we havent seen Monica in months on the show! Not even for Thanksgiving.
MISUSED- Diane on Y&R 2022. She shouldn't be seeking redemption, she should be stirring things up on this otherwise boring soap.
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Definately GH Spencer & Trina, Y&R Nick & Sharon, B&B: Hope/Liam/Steffy, Bridge/Brooke/Taylor
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On 1/12/2023 at 3:50 PM, Forever8 said:
Sonny and Carly with Sarah Brown and Maurice Benard to Tamara Braun and Maurice. Though I think Tamara had more romantic supercouple chemistry with Maurice's Sonny than Sarah, they were more sexually charged and tempestuous.
On 1/12/2023 at 6:13 PM, titan1978 said:SJB’s Carly had the edge to be just slightly dangerous as the wife of a mob boss. If they were being shot at I can easily imagine her Carly firing away. Not to mention any antics she would get up to during one of Sonny’s mental health breaks, which happened more frequently back then.
Totally agree.
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59 minutes ago, Cat said:
Kevin & Chloe -- just the mention of those two breaks me out in hives. EVERYBODY from the show, to the press, to the actors themselves, were pushing that pairing. And nobody was buying what they were selling. Elizabeth Hendrickson wacka-wacka smart-ass delivery made for a sneering portrayal of Chloe. And Greg Rikaart was playing a psychopath who had more sexual chemistry with his onscreen brother ("Nobody Does Brothers Better" after all):
I also agree with you about Gina Tognoni, whom I loved on Guiding Light. I found her very brittle on Y&R and would have rather she played Victoria actually (!). It got to the point where I almost wanted Michelle Stafford back -- almost. Be careful what you wish for, because she's another overrated one.
Actually Tognoni as Victoria would make for much better television than Heinle. She would have to play the role a little less gritty and masculine but more sassy and prissy. Also ironic because Heather Tom replaced Gina as Kelly on OLTL.
44 minutes ago, Cat said:but because he looked down upon her as white trash. So he lived in permanent sexual frustration and rage. Josh was kind of unlikeable in those early days.
Truth. Starting at 16:39, Josh lambasted Reeva for intruding on him and Annie at the ball saying she allowed herself to be molested and that she was a slut having slept with numerous men in the room. Josh had such contempt for Reeva, ignoring the fact that her **post partum depression** led her to drive off that bridge. Her diagnosable psycological reason for attempted suicide was never really addressed from what I saw.
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1 hour ago, Liberty City said:
It is B.S., and why I was so off-put by Sussman's 2016 interview. It read as "I was fired. I'm back and I am undoing everything that's been done that I hate," and honestly, Josh Griffith's efforts have felt the complete same. She was picking and choosing stories she wanted out and stories she was going to acknowledge. Devon did need a goal, but she had no vision on how to provide it.
Exactly. I mean, what happened to Gloria working as Jack's secretary? There is no one at that desk anymore. Hell, from what I can tell, no one is outside of Eric Forrester's office on The Bold and the Beautiful anymore, either. You can just walk into these offices at any given time. It's hilarious and unrealistic as f**k.
Networks still think middle-aged housewives are the majority of the ones at home watching soap operas. And most are likely DVRing or waiting for On Demand to upload the episodes. We don't necessarily need social issues, either. We just need smart writing. Nothing about American soaps are smart!
Ava vs. Esme is going to happen in regards to Esme's pregnancy. But it'll be child's play in comparison to what could be told if Disney-ABC weren't so shiny and clean. Imagine if we got something like this:
Saying you don't care about the baby? Esme mentioning Ava's parenting of Kiki again? That would never air on American daytime. Of course, British soaps air during primetime hours, but still.. that alone would be some awesome material. I'm not saying this exact scenario needs to happen, but something like this would be... refreshing for American daytime.
The problem, especially with The Young and the Restless, is that there is zero depth to the dialogue. It's all at face value with no real emotion or intent behind it. Ashley, Nikki & Phyllis vs. Diane could have been great had it been rooted... but it's just a high school-esque hallway drama-rama playing out, and it's so not worth it.
Agreed that Y&R's dialouge is flat and doesn't reference the past enough to make charachter conflicts rooted in something.
I second that the housewives notion is outdated. Soaps need to look at who is home in the daytime. Yes moms, but also the elderly, unemplyed, night workers, etc. They need to in some way appeal their stores to whatever sexes, racial groups, ages etc, make up those demographics.
There is a youth obsession from the networks. However, Gen Z/ Younger Millenials are busy streaming whatever and largely dont give AF about soaps, unless they grew up with a family member who watched it.
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14 minutes ago, Faulkner said:
Which I feel is total unimaginative BS. And kinda suspect to be honest. There’s a wealth of ideas for a young character who comes into money, especially having to defend that wealth from bottom feeders (like Colin, Cane, Tucker, the list goes on). And does Victor not have goals or drive because he has all the money in the world? Even the BLM story, while timely and certainly relevant, sounds like SSM putting Devon in his “place.” She’s right that Devon needed a goal, but his wealth didn’t preclude that.
That said, it’s hard on this show because they have to think super small. You can’t dramatize wealth that easily because you can’t show it. You watch a show like Succession and it’s so fleshed out and populated with so many small characters to show what a big company looks like. Soaps will never ever compete at that primetime level, but you don’t even have a secretary or extras at the once rarely seen Jabot or at Newman anymore.
Exactly. When I hear Victor or Devon called billionaires I have a hard time feeling it because the show can't really illustrate it based on budget.
Modern soaps in a nutshell. Abuse the loyal audience with terrible story lines -- and when they finally change the channel -- blame the change in viewing habits for the cancellation.
I'm surprised network heads still interfere so heavily in soap storylines, because it's been proven that the audience will stick around for anything given how s**tty the shows are currently.
The appeal of 20th century era soaps was that they did cutting edge material versus what you would get on prime time. Now, almost every show on television is tackling social issues. Would taking soaps deeper in that direction improve things? I'm not sure.
Now, people probably watch daytime for it's campy yet intricate and creative long-form storytelling. Even though we've maxed out the camp factor where almost nothing feels shocking anymore, there's a horrid lack of imagination in Y&R's current storylines. It's too realistic and boring. At least B&B (as awful as it is) pushes the camp envelope with Vinny jumping infront of a cliff or Sheila's toe lol!
Maybe they need to look to true crime stories, Lifetime movies, or scandals or something to inspire their plots because nothing happens.
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Basically the title.
Y&R: Jack & Phyliss. Its been done, it's boring now, Michael & Lauren!!!, Nina/Ryan/Victoria/Cole.
GH: Sonny & Carly. When they broke up in 07, Inwaited years for a reunion. The poor wiritng since has made them boring and the Nina Nixon falls plot was a disaster.
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Y&R: Lightning rod...have mercy...Gina Tognoni's portrayl of Phyliss. I found her to be too hard and rough, like she was trying to oversell Phyliss's edge.
Kevin and Clohe, Adam & Chelsea. Never felt either couple. I would rather watch the OG Adam with Sharon.
Paul & Christine. They had interesting drama surrounding Michael and Isabella in the early 2000s. That pairing should have ended afterward. Both charachters have been stiff ever since. You'd never realize Paul was a playboy back in his day.
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Y&R: Lilly & Cane, Nick & Phyliss Maybe I haven't seen enough of Nick and Phyliss together but I don't get the hype.
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Any soap moments/charachters/writers/shows/ couples that don't measure up to the hype? Elaborate.
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13 hours ago, Paul Raven said:
A lot of characters break up after the first problem instead of them trying to work through it and having the issues in the background to come into play later on.
Exactly. Working through issues or even a separation --but not divorce--gives more weight to relationships. Best cases: GH's Alan and Monica or ATWT's Tom and Margo. Couples built up and really written for with so many years under their belt, that you feel the intensity when things go wrong.
I also find it more compelling when couple issues aren't constantly driven by romance. Maybe its the kids or the business, something other than cheating that strains the marriage. (GH's Alan and Monica are a mix of this because they did nothing but cheat, but thats not for this thread lol).
But then there is Nick and Sharon. Married a solid decade who endured countless consecutive issues that by the time they finally divorced the pairing felt beaten and exhausted.
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On 1/15/2023 at 1:54 AM, Paul Raven said:
I agree he was sometimes to quick to split up couples, rather than try and get a few more years story from them. with long term characters that is important, otherwise we see 5 or 6 marriages and credibility is lost.
Exactly! I have little to no investment in seeing Jack, Ashley, Victoria or even Sharon get married or even be in a relationship because they've all been married or coupled all over the map so many times.
The Bold and the Beautiful is a prime example of couple pairings having zero effect because everyone's been with everyone.
Writers have to learn that it's okay to have some people be single for a few years instead of romance being the go-to B plot to fill airtime.
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GH: Maxie and Nathan were all the rage for a few minutes until Nathan was killed off.
Patrick and Sabrina were big back in 2012/13 until Robin came back.
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On 1/5/2023 at 10:54 PM, Darn said:
They've all done such insane shít.
GH is a strange soap. Nefarious people are integrated members of the community. From the attempted humanization of Franco to Oberect, to Sonny being friends with Mayor Laura, and the Jason apologists, the morality is all weird. Josslyn for example was able to look past Sonny's criminal lifestyle until he cheated on her mother? I get having complex characters, but this is all mixed up. What's even worse are moral high ground women like Robin who excuses them, or like Alexis who still ended up having a child by Sonny.
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As this year marks 20 years since the panic room storyline, question: how was Ric a functioning charachter after imprisoning a pregnant Carly and slipping Elizabeth birth control? How did he not go to jail or how was he not killed? He was able to become a detective (or was it police commissioner) and was able to marry Alexis.
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Speaking of quads and triangles, I know we established the Bell wasn't big on supercouples. Outside of that, the couple pairings on the show lacked the power of say ABC daytime pairings. It seemed like charachters just hopped from one to the next after about a year or so. Only a handful of relationships like Neil and Dru or Victor and Nilki really had much impact.
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Existing Recasts that Another Actor Would Have Excelled In
in Discuss The Soaps: Archive (2021 - 2023)
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Are there any recasts (which actually happened) that you feel another actor would have done well in?
Y&R: Someone wrote on Facebook that Gina Tognoni or Tamera Braun would have been suitables recast for Heather Tom's Victoria.
I think Sarah Buxton would have been a good replacement for Sandra Nelson had Michelle Stafford not returned, or even when she left again in 2013.