j swift

On 8/27/2018 at 11:31 AM, zanereed said:

Lenore Kasdorf was asked to return in 1989 along with Michael Zaslow and Maureen Garrett, but she declined. I believe the reason was that she would have had to relocate back to New York. However, I think Pam Long would have written Rita very well, and would have definitely found ways to distinguish her from Reva. It would be hard for me to visualize Kasdorf with Simon's Ed, of course.

 

And yes, Kasdorf left in 1981 because she didn't think that Marland had a good handle on her character, and she was probably right.

Rita may have suffered from the same issue that I mentioned with Craig in the ATWT thread.  By the time she returns in 1989, the entire town of Springfield had moved on. So now Christina, (who Rita last saw as a child running through the hall of mirrors) is Phillip's age and they're getting married?  Lenore Kasdorf must have some degree of vanity because how old would that make Rita?  Maureen Garrett might have wanted to play the mother of a grown woman while in her 40's, but Lenore's career was built on playing vixens, so I could see why it would have been a more of a risk.  Her entire peer group would have been the elder generation on the show when she was introduced as a lead; it lacks appeal.  Also, Eve and Alan had left the show by that point, and Ed was in another orbit, so there wasn't a lot of history for Rita to play into.

I believe that Roger Thorpe and Iris Wheeler are the only two characters in the history of soaps to return after 3-5 years off screen and be successfully reintegrated into the story; and they both suffered dissatisfying endings. 

I think our outrage would be more effective directed at our friends and acquaintances who would stay at show with Louis CK and give him an ovation.  It is all well and good to try to debate public figures, but jerks can come back whenever they choose. However, I wouldn't support it and I would shame anyone I knew who would choose to stay in that audience. 

These issues seem to be debated as if someone rather than the audience decides if we will tolerate this behavior.  I would much rather see people like this met with antipathy than antagony. 

I also think we shouldn't let the opposition name the movement.  It was originally called "times up" but those who wish to belittle a movement to a hashtag refer to it as "#me too".  I prefer Times-Up because it is a call to action not an identity which infers victimhood.  We need to remember the lessons of the pro-choice movement who for too long were referred to as pro-abortionists rather than protectors of a woman's right to privacy.

Craig is one of those characters, (like Tad AMC or Jamie AW) who was beloved in their first run so they weren't killed off when they left the story.  Then, years later, there's a hew and cry to bring Craig back, but everyone else has been SORASed or evolved and for viewers to recognize Craig he had to stay the same. 

Then, we get dumb things like Craig being in a love triangle with Dusty.  I remembered Dusty as the teen who lead Paul into shoplifting while Craig was having "intimacy issues" with Betsy; it would seem absurd that one day they would be competing for the affection of Barbara's daughter. 

So, we're stuck between a rock and hard place because you want characters to return, but they're doomed to return to a town that has gone on without them; as if they were returning from a time wrap in outer space.   It seems a herculean task to successfully write someone  back in after 3-5 years off the canvas, and I can only think of two cases were it worked successfully, Roger Thorpe on TGL and Iris Wheeler on AW; and neither had a satisfying ending.

1 hour ago, robbwolff said:

That recap isn't accurate. I definitely remember Jody referring to her mother as Billie Lorraine, not Billie Mae. The Edge website confirms that in a synopsis for July 1980: 

If you can't trust TUMBLR to not post fake news who can you trust?

It's probably those Republic of Eden-ites trying to re-write history. lol

On 8/16/2018 at 11:44 AM, robbwolff said:

As I recall, Jody's mother was named Billie Lorraine. However, when she eventually appeared in 1982 as part of the Eden storyline, the character was named Leonie Travis. The role was played by Delphi Harrington.

According to the recap Billie Mae was smothered!

Given that this is such a data driven discussion, has anyone ever counted about how many days of story were told per year?  In other words, sometimes a soap day can last 2-10 episodes, so how many actual days past within a year of stories?  I figured since all soaps celebrate Christmas one could start with that as a day and then begin counting until the next annual celebration.

It would provide a metaphysical reason for SORASing if each year in the soap universe really only lasted 40 days, a soap character could age 10 years within the span of one human year.

27 minutes ago, Brolden said:

Have you ever realized that throughout his stints in Oakdale (spanning all four actors), Craig Montgomery has been romantically involved with:

- 1 trio of sisters (Iva, Ellie and Meg Snyder)

- 3 pairs of sisters (Betsy and Emily Stewart; Lucinda Walsh and Samantha Markham; Carly Tenney and Rosanna Cabot)

- 3 mother-daughter pairs (Lucinda Walsh and Sierra Esteban; Barbara Ryan and Jennifer Munson; and worst of all... Betsy Stewart and Dani Androrpoulos).

 

That's amazing!  Soap writing can be so sexist, the men never age and their women keep getting younger and younger.

Jason Priestly turned 49 today and I saw at least two social media posts suggesting that if one should feel old as they remember him in his youth. 

It struck me that this was really rude for a couple of reasons: (1) as I recall he was in an auto accident and required plastic surgery, so references to his appearance seem uncivil, (2) there are men and women who made a living off of their looks and it seems unnecessarily cruel to point out their age as if they no longer have a thing of value to the culture, (3) Jason Priestly could still probably get it any time he wanted, (4) he's a human being, not a thing by which we tell time.

It plays into my overall concern with celebrity culture that it dehumanizes people into memes rather than recognizing our similarities.  

I'm confused by how much of an actual entity ABC Daytime is any longer?  Tamran and GMA will fill two hours (both produced by the news division), and GH a third.  However, I thought that after the cancellation of OLTL and AMC,  the daytime division got sucked into the overall network structure and affiliates were no longer required to play the entire daytime schedule.  ABC Daytime even got renamed Time Square Studios once more time was given to the affiliates to schedule on their own.  Furthermore, it was my understanding that NBC has handed most of daytime programing to the affiliates with no specific daytime department, while CBS maintains a daytime division to handle The Talk, the game shows and their deal with Sony for the soaps 

So, if ABC Daytime is a thing of the past, why would ABC expect the same clearance across affiliates for Tamran as they got for The Chew?  There was a time when stations were threatened with loosing network affiliation if they didn't broadcast all of the network's shows.  But now that time was given back to the affiliates to fill with cheaper to produce/higher rated local news doesn't it doom most new daytime network shows?

I was a fan of Maggie and Dave the Deli Guy in my youth.  At the time we did not have the "opportunity" of hearing other fans opinions, so I was unaware that people hated the period of the show when the action left the bar.  I later watched the early soapnet episodes and the tone is so different that I understand why long time viewers would not enjoy the Maggie/Max/Dave saga. 

My specific recall is a Friday cliffhanger when a bomb had been placed in the deli.  I was going to summer camp that weekend and made a friend promise to send me a postcard telling me the outcome of the cliffhanger.  Mail took some time in those days, and I got caught up in my own summertime experiences, so when a postcard came and said in big bubble letters, "the bomb never blew" I actually had no idea what it meant.

I compared Maggie to Kimberly because they both shared relationships with Roger that in hindsight seem a little creepy.  Not just the age difference, but Roger got so obsessive when he was in a relationship.  Writers were always walking a fine line with Roger between being romantic and being ominous.

@DRW50Did you prefer Maggie over Kimberly?

It seems to me that head writing is a lot like chess, in that you have a few players and you have to plan ahead.  I think that the projections on to writers of being bored with certain characters, or even the old chestnut about writers being financially compensated for not writing for a prior writer's characters, are overblown.  Occum's Razor suggests that a writer like Pam Long didn't write for Rita because her story function was already fulfilled by others on canvas. If Long wanted a liberated woman who could go up against Alan she had Reva, so she didn't another character who played the same function.  If Long wanted an alternate mother figure for Phillip she had Alex so she didn't need Jackie.  Similarly, when Bill was killed off, Lesie's father Dr. Jackson was still around to play a mentor toward Ed. 

I understand that a well designed character could have returned, or stayed, for any period of time.  However, I don't think that writers have a duty to maintain or retrieve characters if their function is currently being replicated by another character that they created.

As I recall, Rae was introduced when her husband died at the hospital (maybe in a helicopter crash?).  Does anyone recall how long it took for Kimberly to be introduced and was it assumed that Rae's husband was her father?  I know it turned out to be Hollis Kirkland, but was Kim's paternity ever discussed prior to his arrival?

28 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Ben's a pretty common name though. 

I would argue that in a universe where your exes are named Calla, Blake, and India, Ben is a little rarer (ed note, I forgot about Ben Reade)... 

It has become my life's work to prove this theory - Soap writers who repeat first names within a character's history rarely care about cannon, and are invariably hacks who failed to entertain long time viewers.  Who would argue that the writers who created Ben Warren or Sarah Shayne were better than those who created Ben McFadden and Sara Mcintyre?  If a writer lacks the creativity not to reuse a common name, they usually lack creativity in plots as well.

When you think about Ross's immediate family, Jackie & Justin exiting, and Marland's Carrie story getting cut short, it is a wonder that he lasted as long as he did within the story. 

BTW another proffer of my theory that when a writer repeats a first name within character's story they don't care about cannon - Ben McFarren, who Ross competed with romantically during the story of his sister Lanie being injured & Ben Warren his retconned half-brother who never knew Lanie existed. 

Also, while I agree with the comments about none of the ladies of Springfield being frumpy (until later), don't you miss off-beat looking actresses like Sofia Geier who played Diane? 

22 minutes ago, rlj said:

Did y'all know that Marcus Patrick (ex Jett Carver Days) is a Dancer/Masseuse at a gay club?  And he seems to have a British accent?

Yes, and here's a tidbit.  Trevor Donovan (who played the ill-fated Jeremy in the same story) lives in Weho near where Marcus used to dance.  I have seen him walk his dogs and never acknowledge Marcus or the huge picture of Marcus that was on Santa Monica Blvd.  Trevor still looks great but is often seen wearing athletic tights under his shorts and that is a look that I do not prefer.

20 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

The stupid retcon about Amanda being Alan's sister rather than he daughter drove me insane. Of all the idiotic, history-trashing mistakes TGL made in its final decades, this was the one I most wanted to be fixed.

It didn't even make sense within the plot at the time.  Amanda didn't need to be SORAS'ed or De-SORAS'ed in order to be involved with Roger because he had been with Rita who was supposed to be a similar age to Amanda.  There was no advantage to making her Alexandra's niece, rather than her sister.  It was like a posthumous slap to Jennifer that she slept with both father and son, then didn't know the father of her own kid (although if she didn't know, how did anyone else find out?).  And don't get me started on a woman who played with dolls until she was 20 suddenly becoming a Malibu madame.

I think the biggest travesty was pitting Alan against Phillip.  Alan was always protective of Phillip growing up, he fought for custody (even thought it mostly motivated by spite for his ex-wife), and even A-M was jealous of their relationship.  However, all of the BS of Alan shooting Phillip, competing for women together, and what I consider to be Alan's failing to take care of Phillip during his mental health issues betrayed all of that early stuff.  If all of those yucky years hadn't happened, I would have liked Hope, or ghost Elizabeth, or even Beth to verbally acknowledge Alan for being so loyal to Phillip before he died.

22 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Are you referring to Holly's brief, off-screen marriage to Dietrich Lindsey in the 1980s? We never saw him. I don't recall is he had a title, himself, or bestowed one upon Holly. Maybe other members will remember. 

Yes, as I recall there was a mystery over who was the European lady who bought the TV station (WSPR?) and it turned out to be Holly.

There's a topic on the other board about families that look alike.  The Bauer's look like German/Irish-mom Bert, with her Irish-looking son Ed, and his Italian brother Mike.  Are we sure that Bert didn't have an affair with a local Sicilian while Bill was drunk?

Also, to go back a few posts, didn't Holly have a title like Lady Lindsay or something when she lived in Europe after leaving Springfield?  I giggle at the detail that Holly was a stewardess; that's a thread that was dropped over the years.

I was thinking about how Ed's entire character and motivation changed as he aged.  Feel free to correct, but Ed always struck me as the most ambitious Bauer.  He looked up to Dr Jackson and wanted to ascend at Ceder's.  He bought the house next to the Spaulding's (I know Rita wanted it, but Ed gave in quickly) and looked down upon Bill as a loser.  Obviously he was humbled by his fight with alcoholism, and he let jealousy ruin his relationships, but not until the last week when he ran away with Holly did he seem like the guys striving for more; as he had been in the 70's.  Its funny how on soaps, unlike real life, people mature simply because they age not because of lessons learned.  

3 minutes ago, Franko said:

Early '93. Roman and Marlena were going to a Marx Bros. festival. He was Groucho -- she was Harpo. They ended up roping in John as Chico.

That's amazing!, thanks for filling in the blanks.  I remember it because there was also an "E" Behind the Scenes episode being filmed of the event and Deidre promised that Marlena and John were getting back together.  The whole time I was thinking that it was implausible that Marlena (nor either of her ex-husbands) would be fans of slapstick comedy.

How funny is little Fredrick upset on the sofa looking at Crissy?  I wonder if he's thinking, "someday she's going to implicate me as the father of one of her twins!"

Also, wow, Dr Sara is much prettier than I imagined when reading about her!  She was always marrying some loser on the rebound while on vacation, so I guess I thought she was frumpier.  Although, given soap casting, that could have been considered frumpy at the time...

9 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Marlena will have a new best friend-PT Barnum. As her circusy name suggests, PT's an outgoing actress type based on Bette Midler's role in the movie Beaches

I feel guilty saying this, but my first thought on reading the proposal was that Deidre Hall has always overestimated her comedic appeal.  I recall an early Salem Place episode when they dressed up in funny costumes to go to the movies.  There was something about Marlena's overly made-up/coiffed sophistication mixed with the silly costume that did not work to full effect.  Marlena as "straight man" to Eugene was the cringiest time of DAYS for me (a psychiatrist goofing around with an ex-client creeps me out).  So, I guess I'm glad this didn't go forward; 25 years ago.

Also, while I am intrigued by Tommy Horton's adaptation to medicine in a tropical setting,  Sandy Horton was never intriguing enough to build a spin-off upon.  I'm sure it was more of an issue of casting than character, but she was always a bit of a bore.

If we're playing fantasy spin-off, I would have liked either a Dark Shadows-esque origin story of the Dimera family in Europe or an EON-type short mystery arc oriented soap with Marlena and Whomever in Hart to Hart-like roles.

On 1/25/2018 at 12:38 PM, John said:

Pacific Lives

On the Classic SOD tumblr there was a whole story about Pacific Lives and the plans for the series.  Has Deidre Hall ever discussed what happened?  Was it shelved for Sunset Beach? I cannot remember that timeline.

The bible and proposal for that show would be so fun to read.  I wish those things were digitized and searchable.

10 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Here's a picture of young Frederick from shortly after Leslie's death. At that age, having memories of her would be possible.

Touche, you've found the weakness in my argument about facial recognition in the afterlife - lol.

That picture is fantastic, the costumes for Jackie and Rita look so contemporary and chic.

That was before my time, so please excuse my ignorance, but who is in the light blue dress next to Ed?

11 hours ago, JarrodMFiresofLove said:

None of the actors ever talk about the end of the show (except for Mary Stuart who did some interviews later on). A lot of the cast from the 80s is still living. It would be nice if someone interviewed a few of them to get their behind-the-scenes impressions of the last year.

Given his track record it would be hard to predict if a Chris Goutman memoir would be well written, but I bet he has good stories.