EricMontreal22

Thanks for those--that's exactly what I want!  Isn't it odd that Hinsey doesn't mention Agnes Nixon returning as part of that new creative team she mentions?

On 9/30/2018 at 6:56 PM, dc11786 said:

@EricMontreal22, glad to see you popped back in. Agnes Nixon's 1993-1994 stint seems incredibly strong from everything I've seen and read. It seems much stronger than her 1985-1986 work post-Doug Marland. I like that she doesn't really dump a whole bunch of characters immediately the way so many other new writers / producers do when they first appear at "Loving." I admire that she really tries to make everything work even when it clearly doesn't (the Dante stuff always sounds cheesy to me). 

 

The writing credits for Loving are always so messy. Feel free to submit edits, but I think the latest is as I know it:

 

Doug Marland (6/1983 - summer 1985)

Agnes Nixon (summer 1985 - late 1985/ early 1986)

Bill Levinson (1986)

Ralph Ellis (1987 - spring 1988)

Writer's Strike (spring - early fall 1988)

Tom King & Millee Taggart (fall 1988 - April 1991)

Millee Taggart (April 1991 - late summer 1991)

Mary Ryan Munisteri (late summer / early fall 1991 - January 1992)

Addie Walsh (January 1992 - summer 1992)

Haidee Granger (defacto) (summer 1992 - late 1992)

Robert Guza & Millee Taggart (late 1992/early 1993 - 1993)

Millee Taggart (1993- fall 1993))

Agnes Nixon (c. October 1993 - September 1994)

Addie Walsh & Laurie McCarthy (c. October 1994 - January 1995)

James Harmon Brown & Barbara Essensten (c. February - November 1995) 

 

Episodes have finally appeared on trading circuits and I have most of November 1991 - September 1992.

 

That looks about right to me, though I think Agnes Nixon might have actually been there a bit longer after Marland in the first run.  I noticed that a lot of 1991-92, as you say, has recently suddenly picked up (I guess I didn't become a fulltime viewer until sometime in 92 with the Carter Jones/AMC crossover).  How dare you insult the Dante/caged "pet" story But that's pretty much how I feel--Nixon did as good a job as possible I think trying to make the show truly cohesive, etc (interestingly the review from Hinsey posted below seems to have been done just at the start of her run).

I mean complaints like that MUST be based on *something*--I guess I'll check a few more random episodes later tonight, but definitely the first 6 episodes are all a bit over 25 minutes (this information is 100% proven and accurate ).  There could be something fishy like they were given syndicated versions of later episodes (I'm not sure how heavily PP was syndicated but I know it was--though it's strange that Romance would show the originals in that case--stations like MeTV I've noticed tend to show the syndicated versions of shows.  I HATE that they show the extremely butchered syndicated version of Night Gallery, for example)

It is frustrating.  I'm a huge fan of the UK Queer as Folk and even the Deluxe DVD released in the US used the US edits which are based on the US cable airings and don't actually censor anything but join combine the first season's episodes so that each 35 minute original episode (weird episode length, I know) is doubled (ie episodes 1 and 2 become a long episode one)--but worse of all is so much of the music, which is integral to the series, has been replaced with generic techno.  Which is kinda odd because the UK release mostly used little known dance bands, etc--hardly anything high profile that would seem hard to license for N America. 

6 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

I have not seen all the commercially-released DVDs of PP, but soap friends have warned me that the eps are only 22 minutes long, whereas the show was originally aired with eps of 24 minutes. I cannot verify this, first-hand, I am only relaying what I have been told. I know Shout released terribly edited episodes of Rhoda, season one, which many fans bitched about because the missing scenes could be found on-line. 

I just checked disc one, every episode runs approximately 25 mins and 20-25 seconds.  But maybe shortened syndicate versions of episodes are on other discs?  (I don't have the time right now to check).  I've only watched thr first two sets and I thought I remembered noticing that they all came in around 25 mins...

6 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

After releasing the first two DVD boxsets, Shout Factory took FOREVER (literally!) to release any more. They just started again this year, which was an unexpected blessing, and I think they have put out a total of five sets so far. Ironically, I have had some friends tell me that the fan-made versions of the DVDs, recorded from the Romance Network, include more scenes that have been edited out of the commercially-released boxsets. That is sort of...annoying. I know other soap fans who had to resort to buying fan-made DVD sets of Beverly Hills 90210 because the commercial releases of the show were butchered so badly.

 

I know studios often want to pennypinch when they release classic TV on DVD, but if they put out material that is inferior to what fans can get through other fans, the sales of their product will be in jeopardy.

I completely agree with, well, all of this--though I had never heard about them releasing edited episodes (from what I've noticed they all seem to be the proper length but I haven't gone through all of them yet).  SHOUT is usually pretty good at getting that right, and nothing's come up on the PP groups I'm on, but I'll have to investigate... 

YES of course I meant From This Day Forth (I guess I was thinking of the song title LOL).  Still, I prefer it as a title... 

Thanks for the welcome back--really enjoying catching up on your posts!

Peyton Place at least makes more sense to me--since Shout Factory seems to be doing their best to (ever so slowly) release them on DVD.  I admit I have umm... fanmade DVDs of the entire show (though I took a break and still have a "year" left of watching) that I bought when it looked like no other DVD sets were coming out--from the Romance Network airings, but out of guilt and a desire to support I did buy the two new box sets out this year.

6 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Rick Edelstein. And that storyline was beautifully done. Fran Brill won an award for Best Actress in a Single Sequence for her work as David's widow. (Afternoon TV magazine awards)

Love reading your thoughts on How to...  (BTW, anyone else agree that the working title, From This Moment On is better?  How to Survive a Marriage just sounds awkward and, well, negative).  I know much of the soap press at the time found Anne Howard Bailey's initial work on Marriage *way* too didactic--I've read pieces that claim that, unlike say Agnes Nixon's social issue storylines, the work on it (and speeches from rosemary Prinz' shrink character) often felt like lectures, though the general consensus agrees with what you said, that the show improved a lot once she left.  The rather infamous Lin Bolen and her investment in the show often gets lots of the blame as well (I think maybe unfairly--she was unfairly caricatured in the film Network which I see as being reactionary because she was a woman with so much power in the tv world).

Alas I've only ever seen the brief clip on youtube.

18 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

 

I would like to start watching TD reruns from the very first episodes that were released by Retro TV a few years ago, if they are available online anywhere. If not, I will start with the eps from 1969 onward, which I know where to find.

As you probably know, Retro started with mid 1967 episodes--but I don't know where you can find them now.  I *believe* those are the earliest episodes available from the company that packages the reruns--but have no idea if that means that that was when full episodes were saved to video tape or if earlier ones exist (and not just random kinescopes).

Exactly.

59 minutes ago, Khan said:

They had recast Kent Bogard once already.  Michael Woods was the original Kent, IIRC.

Ah had no idea, but that would make sense if they decided they might as well cut their losses...

That's right--thanks for the correction!  Apparently (I found a quote) Ruth was taken aside by the director who pointed out that four major characters had already been recast at least once (Kate, Jeff, Ann and Lincoln) and she could be next-- (although I wonder if there was much of a threat--I don't think any of those actors had the pedigree that Ruth had).

Yes the Kent murder mystery, I have it on good authority, was done when they decided to let go of the actor.  Dunno why they didn't recast though I assume he was pretty popular (I'm never sure why they decide to recast or not--but of course often when an actor is let go for a reason like this the recast is NOT well received--look at Pierce, or Dimitri)

 

5 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

Damn, these videos are blocked due to "copyright restrictions" for me.

Odd--where are you located?  They work for me here in Canadaland...

 

7 hours ago, SoapDope said:

It seems like I recall reading that. Aaron Spelling has said he and Leonard Goldberg came up with the idea in his kitchen. I think there was also a lawsuit brought by Robert Wagner who said he and his then wife Natalie Wood were the ones who pitched the idea for Charlie's Angels. 

Ah, this is what Wiki says:

"

Family became the subject of a 24-year legal dispute^[2] due to a lawsuit filed by writer Jeri Emmet in 1977. The claim was against Spelling Television and alleged that Spelling had stolen the idea for the show from a script that Emmet had submitted, entitled "The Best Years." Spelling responded to the lawsuit with a statement explaining that he had conceived the idea in his kitchen with Leonard Goldberg, his professional partner at the time. Next they pitched the idea to scriptwriter Jay Presson Allen to create the pilot. She had just completed writing the screenplay for the film Funny Lady, starring Barbra Streisand and directed by Herbert Ross.

In October 1981, the suit was dismissed for lack for prosecution. Jeri Emmet filed an appeal the same month. Approximately a year later, she withdrew her appeal as part of a settlement with Spelling and Goldberg for $1,000. Emmet later filed a legal malpractice action against her own lawyers in which it was argued that she would have won her original lawsuit but for the malpractice. The case went to trial and a jury awarded her $1.7 million in damages. The verdict was then successfully appealed based on the resumption of the suit having occurred beyond a one-year limitation period allowed in the law. The trial result and the judgment were thrown out.^[3]

Emmet sued Spelling a second time, in 1996, after Spelling published his memoirs. She claimed that Spelling had defamed her in his book, as she had not been credited with conceiving the original idea for Family. She lost on appeal in 2001, with the court saying she had not met the standard for showing damages due to the alleged defamation and that she had not explained how the defamation legally constituted a second theft of the same intellectual property. The litigation finally concluded with Allen retaining her "Created by" credit for the series

"

It's interesting that it does sound like it didn't really have a showrunner the way I'm used to in later dramas (even the Herskovitz/Ziwck shows that owe so much to this)--Allen is given creator credit and wrote the pilot but nothing else.  Goldberg/Mike Nicholls (!) and Aaron Spelling were, according to WIki as well, in charge of the show creatively.  It doesn't seem like it had a writer's room (did American primetime shows have it back then?) and they used many different writers.  Aside from David Jacobs, and Herskovitz and Zwick getting their start there so did Richard Kramer (who went on to do the first Tales of the City adaptation as well as being a writer on basically every later Herskovitz/Zwick show including writing the infamous "gay" episode of thirtysomething), and Ron Cowen and Daniel Lipman who went on to create Sisters and the US (*cough* inferior ) version of Queer as Folk.

Ah, that would make sense.  It's interesting looking at the old ratings--the soaps actually moved around somewhat (more so in the 1970s) week by week--something I'm not used to seeing lol.

Interesting, I know the creator of Marriage was out very quickly, but had no idea who else wrote it.

 

4 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

I think Lakin and Rick Edelstein were TD's very best writers. Marland did not do his best work on this show, IMHO, but so many of its other writers were so much worse. I do wish I could evaluate DePriest's material again. Where is everyone watching TD reruns? Is the series available on youtube, vimeo, etc? I keep meaning to track it down and check it out.

It's on the antennae old-school tv network Retro TV which I don't get, but it has been getting posted to youtube regularly.
 

I will say compared to other mid 70s soaps I've seen, I don't think The Doctors is... great.  But as others have said, compared to what we've had to endear for ages now on the soaps it's a breath of fresh air.

So what caused DAYS to go to number 1?  Was that HH or demos? 

Right--I saw that going through this thread.  Wasn't there just a lawsuit settled to do about the writing credits for Family??  Maybe something to do with credited creator Jay Presson Allen?  (Who has had some slight infamy with writing credits--the film screenplay of Cabaret is credited to her, however, most sources now acknowledge that playwright Hugh Wheeler did the final script).  

I can't find the quote now, but yes, Ruth says something about how someone involved (a director?) pulled her aside and basically said that she should want the audience to love to hate her--not just to hate her. 

Oh thanks!  It drives me crazy that we never got anymore of it on DVD.

On 10/31/2017 at 8:41 PM, SoapDope said:

This show is pretty much getting lost with time. Most people under 35 probably have never even heard of it. I couldn't tell you the last time the series was seen in reruns. The 80's probably. 

 

If a network would take a chance and run it, it may develop a new audience. 

I don't think it gets the credit it deserves--a lot of great writers came from it (Herskovitz and Zwick I believe met on it--nearly a decade before creating thirtysomething).I'll often see youtube and blog posts about groundbreaking "gay" themed episodes from the 1970s that mention stuff lie the gay bar on Taxi but completely ignore Family's Rites of Friendship episode from its first full season which is shockingly progressive in its take on homosexuality for the time (nevermind that Willie's "best friend" is never mentioned again lol)--or I believe there was a season 3 episode with Buddy having a crush on a lesbian teacher.

5 hours ago, Pine Charles said:

I thought Kent was hot.  LOL
I loved the ''All About Eve''/''Gaslight'' storyline they did with Silver and Erica.

It's too bad he was apparently a jerk on set which is why Susan used her clout to get him fired....

I agree with everything you say Vee   Didn't know that about Giles.  I corresponded with him briefly after the book on FB and he seemed pretty laid back but every so often would take offense at seemingly random things.  Regardless, the book truly is a treasure. 

11 minutes ago, BetterForgotten said:

I think Patrick Mulcahey's commentary about Nixon's feedback on his LOV scripts was that she was a severe micro-manager and her feedback ultimately wasn't helpful to him.  

 

Thanks for posting that.  This is my bias, but from all the interviews with Mulcahey I've read--he likes to come off as rather irreverent so I assume he's exaggerating (at least I hope so ).  I guess my take away from that is not a very popular one--I think Nixon has every right to, well, micromanage her show (though I'm a little surprised at how involved, day to day, she was during the time Marland was writing--I can sure imagine this was a big reason why he left after a year).  I completely get why for many that would be a horrible way to work, but...

From my interviews I know that during the 95-97 Broderick era Nixon remained very hands on even if she took no official credit (though if I recall she did go up with the writers when they won the Emmy)--in that she offered her feed back on every script (apparently sometimes would even phone up one of the main writers late at night with a story thought), even though she wasn't credited *however* they have also said that--by that point (and Loving ten years earlier may have been different) she was also respectful enough that she knew that they didn't *need* to take her input and put it to use by any means.

It's funny with Nixon and AMC in that I think fans tend to (myself included) both overplay her involvement and underplay it.  As has been mentioned, a lot more credit--especially for the early 80s greatness--deserves to go to Wisner, but other writers as well, for creating fave stories and characters.  On the other hand, by all reports, she was overseeing things (I suspect even, though to a lesser extent especially with her prolonged grief at the death of her husband, during the awful second McTavish run) and while her power greatly diminished, she seems to have been overseeing the show to *some* degree during some of its worse times (for me the solo run of Passanante after Nixon stopped writing with her officially being the nadir--others will prob pick a McTavish run)--the only time that she wasn't allowed to offer story input and advice being during the Pratt era. 

Again from her confusing memoirs it does seem that officially she was co-HW of OLTL with Gordon Russell from 73 (when she left the HW position) to 75 which is when she started to feel too occupied with AMC and "comfortable" leaving it with Russell, but she also claims to have consulted at least through the end of the 70s (I know that during the 80s and I think even early 90s she did hold an official post at ABC as consultant for all of their daytime shows but that could mean anything). 

One brief comment about the original 1960s DID story--in Agnes' memoirs which I've just re-read for my thesis (and, I'll say it again, are a mess), she does make it clear that she took the Vicki part of that story , and her trauma, very seriously but also saw Nicki as the number one source back then for the comic relief element that Nixon felt was so important for her soaps  (she mentions how she was able to first use comedy when writing Another World and she felt that was as responsible for the rating climb as the Rachel/Alice/Steve stuff).  Nowadays I admit I always find it in poor taste when they use DID stories for comic relief (as arguably Carlivati did)--but I also understand things were different back in '68....

2 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I thought the writing for Niki was still somewhat layered in the '80s, even if the performance wasn't. Bits like her helping Viki recover from her stroke. 

 

The '95 stuff was when she just seemed to become complete scum. And this was also the start of inviting viewers to laugh at sexual abuse (as it was supposed to be both weird and hilarious that Niki's abuse led her to do things like try to have sex with Joey), which Ron took the ball and ran with in later years.

I must have blacked that part out because watching it when I was a teen, I got no sense that we were meant to find any of it funny.  Of course I coulda been too connected to the material as it was the first time I saw on TV anything dealing with or acknowledging the long term effects of sexual abuse which, bla bla bla, is something I can personally relate to.  Certainly I did think Higley made it distateful and Ron treated it as comedy (it's funny--again the Giles book--that the actors all praise Carlivati to the Heavens--and I think Giles is biased towards him as well--but then they have a random comment from Hillary B Smith where she says that the one time she basically wanted to disown her show she felt so disgusted with it was when Mitch was trying to "rape" his daughter while spouting bible verse and then the electro shock--however they don't make it clear to a reader who wouldn't know that that WAS during the Carlivati/Valentini era--despite the book, which I love, making both men sound infallible.

1 hour ago, j swift said:

So, we all agree that Pete O'Neil was the true love of Niki/Vicky's life; right? (lol)

 

My problem with the reiteration of the DID story was the tonal shift.  Under different writers and producers in the 1980's Niki Smith was an unintended campy performance.  Vicky would throw on a long red wig (wig buying was a previously unknown symptom of DID), look at herself in the mirror with a maniacal smile, and become Niki.  It was more similar to Samantha and her evil cousin Sarina on Bewitched.  It was a plot point in a murder story and later Tina and Maria used it against Vicky to try to hump Clint.

 

When Vicky's DID was re-introduced it was suddenly supposed to be a mental illness storyline, told with some sensitivity, about the origin of her psychosis.  However, in my experience of watching both, it seemed to silly to treat this plot point seriously that had previously been so campy.  Coupled with all of the soap DID tropes, like a sudden different wardrobe for each personality to convey the personality changes to the audience, it felt like it was underestimating the viewer's sophistication about mental illnesses.  Trying to tell a story about the effect of childhood trauma while trapped in a secret room of a mansion is a mix of silly and serious that never worked for me.  Also, unlike alcoholism stories where they are careful to make the character never drink again, or medical stories where they always showed the scar, Vicky psychosis had no effect on the characterization.  She was still  a solid citizen whom others look to for support.  Nobody ever questioned her decisions or treated her differently despite the fact that she went completely unmedicated for years.  It was another 90s attempt to try to be socially relevant but really being a bit insensitive and wound up poorly informing the audience.  

 

Then, when it was repeated a third time with Jessica it was even sillier because now the audience was fully aware of DID, and Jess/Tess did not fit the profile of a DID client.  OLTL had to learn the lesson that once you go to Heaven, the Ol' West and Eterna you should not try to tell sensitive dramatic stories with the same set of characters.

I somewhat disagree--it worked for me and I think the show DID manage to get away from the Rauch camp under Gottlieb/Malone/Griffith into *some* semblance of a modern take on the 1960s version (at least kinda...)  But I completely get your point (and remember, it was this era where I started to watch the show was a 12 year old--only seeing clips of older stuff thanks to the "Megan Death Flashback Week" ) and as I said, even St Nixon treated it as comedy when she was playing Nicki (although not dark comedy as Higley et al. would--Nicki just wanted to basically have the fun that Vicki, due to her father, would not allow her--nothing more or less).  I would argue though your point that under Rauch, Nicki was "unintended camp"--I have to think O'Shea at least was aware of the camp during that era.

Were the O'Neil's introduced during that quick time Henry Slesar was co-writing with Sam Hall?  it's too bad that no one asked Sam Hall about that confusing time (the Corringtons then coming in) while he was still alive.  Of course knowing grumpy Mr Hall he woulda just said what a terrible writer Slesar was and left it at that (his comments about Gordon Russell  in Giles' book are hysterical--implying he never wrote, he just sat around drinking and flirting with women and Agnes Nixon had a crush on him so let him get away with everything, etc...  I mean the very fact that OLTL's style changed when Russell passed away proves that obviously he wasn't just HW in name only)

6 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

 

How were the notes from Nixon and Cenedella different, did they say?  Nixon was very detail oriented and I assume back in the day, she had to fight as hard to get anywhere as Irna had to.

 

I dont know why Depriest had shorter term stints (except for Days where she was conned wrote for 2.5 yeaes..or Another world 1.0 where she lasted almost 2 years).   But I am loving her take on The Doctors and am sad it is close to an end since the story is at a pivotal point...but she will he leaving the show in a fairly good hands for Marland to take over.

 

Speaking of which...Marland is always created with being this genius..but he's over rated.  The only show I can see where he worked any sort of magic would be GH (that show needed help)...but when he took over GL..it was in great shape...and when he took over ATWT..it had already been repaired by Bledsoe Horgan...and he didnt do much to tweak what she had put in place except for those horrid Snyders (and now we know he didnt create the Dancys on the Doctors...but seeing that family, you could see how they would inspire him...but early Dancy's were more likable than the Snyders..imho).

She only sent me one of the Another World scripts as I wasn't too interested in it or Somerset, but basically Canedella's notes were just VERY sparse and didn't feel too "involved".  I will say that she seemed to love working with him almost as much as Nixon...  Nixon's on the other hand, as I said, were just all over the place--but by no means mostly corrections.  Lots of comments about what she liked (on one page she makes a note "And here is where people across America will start to cry!" ), they just seem really involved as if she was picturing the drama while reading the script and trying to see if it fit her vision--if that makes sense.  They're not here at school with me but I've been meaning to scan at least a few pages as they're really fascinating (the three AMC ones don't really involve any big storyline though the OLTL ones are during the Marcy (Francesca James) gaslighting Vicki story.)

I think DePriest can be a cold writer--I take that away from every era of her writing I've seen but she certainly made AMC a much colder feeling show in her brief time--she also really pulled it into focus (the final year of Broderick's run that time sorta became a muddle IMHO) and emphasized dramatic moments.  It's purely conjecture on my part but I just assumed that maybe she didn't often do SUCH short runs (under a year) due to being hired then fired but rather agreed to them -- as at least in the case of The Doctors, AMC and OLTL she seemed to be called in when they felt the show needed sharpening up and more drive.

I'm with you on the Cult of Marland.  I admit, I might feel differently if I had watched his ATWT or his GL as it aired.  And of course, to be perfectly clear, I do think he's a very strong writer.  But from what I've seen comments like "he could do every genre and type of story" don't ring true...

7 hours ago, cct said:

Eric, it is so good to "see" you again. You always bring a sincere thoughtfulness to the boards.

Thank you!  I'm glad to see you are still here

3 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I think having Sloan dying and the stress/sadness of that made sense for her DID to come out...Vicki never was good with coping with stress....but not even mentioning her first true love Joe was an insult.  She should have said she hadn't felt this sense of loss since Joe left her..even Express regret that Kevin/Joey never got to know their father, etc.

 

I think the abuse element made sense...vicki and victor had this emotional incest vibe from what I read of the early history...with sweet Meredith being almost like their child.  I think it would have fit history wise if it wasnt sexual abuse..but emotional abuse that eventually led to Vicki's DID... hence why Nikki Smith was wild and free (because she was a part of Vicki that was repressed).

The abuse aspect made *complete* sense to me (if it hadn't been so well done, though, I probably would think differently).  I can't fault Malone/Griffith for that personally.  (I can blame Higley--well for everything but especially for making Nicki guilty for practically pimping young Jessica out, not to mention how Higley had a shrink say it was beneficial for Clint and Vicki to watch the kidding porn made from that session--NO shrink would say that--etc etc.)

And let's face it to those who say it ruined Victor--he was already, well, a creep to put it mildly, especially after the 1980s "revelations".  I guess some think molestation was a step too far--but is it really after him sleeping with Irene Manning and everything else?  It seemed a natural further revelation to me. 

(One thing I find amusing is on in interviews Susan Bedsow Horgan stated how they consulted with Agnes Nixon who thought it was a great and powerful idea--then in the Giles book Nixon basically says it was a terrible idea she had no input in, I think with the thought that Victor was somewhat based on her father, and she wanted to be clear HE never sexually abused her.  I adore Nixon as everyone knows, but she has contradicted herself before--especially later in her life--the Giles interviews were done post-stroke--so who knows where the truth is...)

It DID annoy me how Joe (Kevin's father for [!@#$%^&*]'s sake) was essentially erased after the Heaven story really.  On one level I get it--in All Her Children (back in 1975) Agnes talks about one dilemma with soap writers is how much of the character history should you keep referencing---her example was that Ann Tyler was a divorce from a wealthy European aristocrat, but that by this point in her history in the show--while that shouldn't be ignored--it just made things too complicated to ever even mention it.  However, in this case fans knew about Vicki and Joe for more than a decade...