FrenchBug82

On a side note, that means the rumors about them auditioning a Summer recast were either accurate or at least a  negotiating tactic because I can't imagine they are not going to bring Kyle back for this soon.
 

16 minutes ago, Khan said:

Wha??

LOL!

She actually got accidentally killed by Nick and he and Lisa Rinna faked a suicide letter and put her body on train tracks to disguise it as a suicide and make Rob Estes feel guilty to manipulate him into whatever it was they wanted from him at that time, if I recall correctly.

14 minutes ago, Khan said:

Was the ambulance supposed to be moving when he threw her out of it?

Yes.

And the only thing that made my skin crawl worse is the fact that the aftermath... when she walks back to her hotel with Jack and Adam there was played FOR LAUGHS.
Such a low low point for the show.

27 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

This show has had Malcolm, Phillip III, JT, and Adam like 3 times now come back from the death along with us seeing Victor, Sheila Sharon, and Katherine all end up presumed dead at some point. I’d like hope JG doesn’t screw this up but unfortunately I am quite sure he will find a way. 

I am not going to belabor this but Phillip is the only one of those who was clearly presented as dead-dead.

All the others were left ambiguous enough at the time that it was easy to guess the character wasn't really  dead or that at least the door was wide open.
Heck, Drucilla's death also left the door wide open.

31 minutes ago, Vee said:

I thought the idea of the Phillip story was intriguing on the page, especially given Thom Bierdz's IRL history and orientation. It had a very metatextual angle given the performer and his struggles, it was the kind of risk classic Y&R sometimes took with social issue storytelling and controversy. The problem was a) the handling of the story and the writing was terrible and b) Bierdz absolutely cannot act. Given those things it should've been left alone.

Since he's alive now though, they might as well recast.

I think my reaction to the Days Craig story will have clued folks in that I actually hate this: turning a straight character gay because the performer is gay infuriates me and sends a terrible message.
And this was all wrong with *this* character. The idea that he would have gone to such lengths because he was afraid to come out is an insult to all the characters involved.
I fully agree such a story would be worth telling but I really do not see how this should have ever involved waking Phillip from the dead.

Only positive thing that came out of it is that it finally brought Tricia Cast back to the show and that she KILLED those scenes (which made TB look even worse).

2 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

I enjoyed her on Dear John back in the day; her character and story on Melrose Place was pretty utterly over the top outlandish though. 

The MP story didn't work at all but I love Susan Walters and goddamn talk about aging gracefully! She looks fantastic.

36 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

We saw him die in the hospital and Jill weep over him.

The reason some of us hated his return is because there was zero reason for it beyond an insulting gay storyline that was over in about two weeks, all because MAB wanted to pat herself on the back. 

Oh that definitely made it worse.

But I hated the very idea that Philip wasn't dead - because it had proven such a pivotal moment that should not have been erased - and that he had faked his death, regardless of the insulting gay stuff, and it was completely not in tone with the show.
Sorry but it is just not a very Y&R story to do.

I give considerably more leeway to a show like Days to do things like this (which they overdo but that's a different conversation)

45 minutes ago, edgeofnik said:

Um, compared to Philip's 'death' and resurrection - this is nothing! Y'all act like Y&R hasn't done this stuff before. Anyway, SW was solid as Diane. Killing off the character was simply idiotic. Thank goodness, MW ended up in a far better situation at GH.

Well, Y&R did it with Philip and we all hated it passionately.

Did we ever see Philip dead back in the day?

I don't think the character should have been killed off in the first place, I loved SW in the role and all that but this makes no freakin' sense on so many levels.

It is not just the return from the undead but how she would be in any way related to Keemo and Allie, how Kyle ended up where he is if she was alive, ... 
And doing this when Kyle is not even on the canvas? Stupid.

There are too many plot holes to make it make sense in a way that fits Y&R storytelling style.
I'll take it because, well, Y&R needs all the help it can get and I am actually going to tune in for Phyllis' reaction.

And also, all that was said about MW's stint that is a bitter memory for me as a fan of Maura.

But this should have been nipped in the bud very early in the story process. This is not a Y&R story.

19 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

I wonder if they’re overselling it for hype, but we’ll see. I’ve seen Nelson Branco and Alan Sarapa both tweet that they’ve learned some soap bombshell about which they’ve had to swear to secrecy (or else). I was curious if it was about the person texting Jack on Y&R or the B&B twist.

Well there is some wording ("change the show forever") that can be easily dismissed as hype.

"Never done in daytime" is too specific for them to be able to walk it back so I don't think they would go there, especially since that specific wording isn't necessary to make it seem big, if it wasn't literally true.
And even if it is a "first in daytime" in a narrow technical sense because of some details that differs, it still wouldn't apply to most of the ideas on this thread - and I said that as someone who is impressed by most of them.
Who knows obviously but I tend to think they are actually throwing a Hail Mary here and we have to take it at face value... for now.

1 hour ago, Faulkner said:

I still think it’s Steffy-related and has something to do with Sheila keeping her role in Brooke’s ordeal quiet. Maybe she (alongside Thomas?) gets kidnapped and thrown in some secluded hideaway with some unexpected company (whether they be Ronn Moss’s Ridge or Phoebe or someone else). And that will account for JMW’s maternity leave, and her big return will be her and the unexpected company showing up alive in L.A.

Also: potentially sets up a Finn/Hope/Liam triangle.

Which would tie in with the speculation about Phoebe (potentially in a double role for JMW).
But I am still stuck on the "first for daytime" tease. 
A lot of stories we have mentioned would be big twists and I'd totally buy it (and some are fun!)... if it wasn't for that particular description which doesn't apply to any of our ideas so far.

That said, I am 100% agreing that it has to be Steffy related. JMW is just about to go on maternity leave, KA is the first one who mentioned the twist, etc.
It just makes sense that it is around Steffy

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

They did a little more with Frankie, but frankly, anything that ever worked with Frankie I would credit to Alice Barrett, not the writing.

This. I love Frankie but thinking back at it coldly thirty years later she was very irritating and 95% of her stories were garbage.
But AB was a joy to watch (and of course the chemistry with Cass) and sold the hell out of everything.

59 minutes ago, Chris 2 said:

Someone on another board suggested that the last few seasons should have been about JR’s redemption. Not that he would have turned into a goody two shoes. He could have still been a cunning, clever business man. But one with more of a moral compass. Larry Hagman had talent to make that characterization interesting. Then, they could have created a new villain to help drive the show.

I am one of these very few people who do find some redeeming features in the last few seasons and while the writing wasn't good enough to sustain it, I do think there was a lot of potential in the series of humiliations and defeats JR started to endure in the late years.
That could have set up exactly what you suggested if the show had had the guts to do it. But I think they wanted to play it safe with JR always reverting to "classic" JR.
Plus they wrote pitiful stuff played more for laughs (the asylum stuff) and they sadly didn't really manage to find characters that were up to this level and could have made it believable that JR was now vulnerable.
I always said JR had lucked out that Cliff was so lame and stupid and that it would have been nice if he had realized that part of his success was lucking out that his archenemy was mediocre.
McKay could have been a stronger contender and I still think the first half of that season with the ranch war was very effective in setting him up as a worthy adversary but for some reason they chose to then turn him into a sad sack.
But I can see a scenario where McKay gets something out of betraying Wendell and then becomes a equal-to-equal rival for JR at the same time JR realizes he isn't what he once was and that drives some recalibration on his part and some nice character evolution. And real suspense as to who will come out on top.
Dallas however was never that show and wasn't going to become thoughtful in its last legs.

As a separate point that I will simply mention but not elaborate on because this is the Dallas thread, this is also EXACTLY what Y&R should be doing with Victor, if EB wasn't so insistent on screaming bloody murder as soon as his character is shown to be a human with weaknesses.
The decline of a once-powerhourse could be such a powerful storyline with lots of ramifications AND great material for an actor: how does one cope with getting older and seeing time pass you by and reassessing one's own morality and what is worth it or not. Great stuff.
Anyway..

3 hours ago, Khan said:

In retrospect, Kristin is a terribly weak choice for the culprit in J.R.'s shooting.

Do you reckon? How do you think this should have ended instead?

Coz the way I see it this was the least bad solution: it wasn't the lazy soap trope of making it some random character noone cares about but it also avoided the narrative problems that would come up if it had been a main cast member.
Kristin was a reasonably prominent supporting character of the previous season so the audience didn't feel completely cheated but she could easily be written out so the story could play out without long-term consequences.

That being said, I don't know how others feel about her but I just recently saw again pieces of Mary C's appearance on Knots Landing and while I have not rewatched that time of Dallas in many years, it reminded me that I thought at the time she was not a very good actress at all.
Smirking isn't acting.

9 hours ago, te. said:

I mean, the reason why Emma acted the way she did was likely because she had some sort of developmental disorder, even if the show never went into specifics.

Indeed.

Which is the way it should be btw in my opinion. So many shows could avoid pitfalls by not naming the (mental) health issues they are trying to portray. By keeping it vague, you avoid misrepresenting the disease and/or offending people with clumsy writing and sending bad messages.
And you grant yourself the flexibility to dial it up and down depending on your story needs, which isn't very honest or realistic, but useful for writers.

On the downside, as I mentioned a few days ago, I think it was a lost opportunity not to have Angela's guilt and suffering at the way her daughters turn out be more of a thing. Would have humanized the character and JW could have played the hell out of it.
We only got a handful of scenes and some very vague subtext. I feel it should have been even more of a thoroughline for why Angela was the way she was.

1 hour ago, soapfan770 said:

Is she back doing horror movies again? I haven’t followed her career but I do remember her being in the super campy Chopping Mall with Kelli Maroney from Night of the Comet. Lord what movies use to come on Saturday nights on third-tier TV OTA stations…

She never really stopped; she is really adored in those circles so she gets work all the time if only because having "Barbara Crampton" on the DVD box of a low-budget horror movie means a producer has almost a guaranteed floor of sales.
Down to her being front-and-center in small movie posters despite having a two-minute cameo.

Keemo had a crush on Mary Jo and she played along.

But I am almost certain they didn't consumate that crush: she was leading him on to bother Jack. So much so that there was a plot where she hired a hooker to get her off the hook of his sexual needs if I remember correctly.

And in the end when he realized that she had been involved with his father, not only did he break it off, but that was one of the stated reasons he went back to Vietnam (fact he went back to the US after that is new information as far as I can tell) because he couldn't bear the thought he had feelings for a woman who had been with his father and was disgusted with himself yada yada.
He left warning Jack she was bad news and then she was arrested for shooting Victor so I don't think there was any space for them to hookup post-departure.

I don't think there is any way for MaryJo being Allie's mother to make sense. Retcon be a retcon of course but...

I probably should have started a separate thread but this is all very interesting and I can't argue with almost any of the suggestions - a couple I had myself thought of - but there are more than I expected when you start listing them.
 

I wonder why they held off so long on revealing Esme's connection to Ryan. It was heavily telegraphed so it is not like it is out of left field but its impact would have been higher if it had been revealed at the height of the stalker storyline.

Genuine question, not a rhetorical one: has there ever been a soap teen scene where everyone was on-point?
I have always feel even the ones we remember fondly generally were really one or two very talented or very charismatic performers pulling upward a bunch of weaker, more green actors with the help of good writing and chemistry,
But I am sure there are exceptions to my vague theory.

9 minutes ago, Vee said:

Jeff Webber was always kind of a dick and often volatile, but if they really go for some sort of repressed abuse thing with Liz here that'll be way too far. I do hope they bring on the parents,

Not to keep referencing OLTL in other threads but Victor Lord was an even bigger stretch so maybe...

I do love the wishcasting though.

Thus, it is completely gratuituous on my part but I think BS would have walked by Season 6 at the very latest.
I don't think she had a sense of loyalty to keep powering through c**p the way JW did.
Some women feel that strength means perserving in tough situations with her head high - the JW "lady" way.
Some women felt about speaking up and standing up against garbage - more BS way. Ready to walk if things go downhill. Which would have accelerated the downfall of the show faster.
 

5 minutes ago, Khan said:

In that case, though, I'd say the network interference was justified.

It always amazes me how Dynasty recycled the whole "Nazi treasure in a mine" plotline in its Season 9. Of all the dumb plots to copy...

3 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Well she did stick around at Big Valley for 4 seasons.

Falcon Crest was still in decent shape after four seasons

I do find the entire exchange about who his "boss" is very interesting and SO telling.

He could have let that go but I think ultimately the core of the problem is there: he is correct that literally his boss is Ken C. and THAT is the only person he needs to please.

That mentality - the network and producers is who I need to please - is obviously very common among head writers and that's how the worst of soaps come about.

Again, it is not to say he has to always make the audience happy but the notion that no criticism he receives is ever constructive comes from his ego.

26 minutes ago, Khan said:

I get what Claire Labine told Damon Jacobs in their 2016 WLS interview: you can't write for the audience; you have to write what interests and pleases you, because audiences can be fickle.  But, on the other hand, if something is clearly not working, and you know it's not working because your audience is telling you loud and clear that it's not working, then you have to try something else.  Period. 

And it is not even that he is resenting some specific criticisms and standing by a story that he thinks is more worth it than the audience thinks.
I am the first one to say that audience whining should not be the lodestar - especially at Days where so many stories that we regard as classics were constantly complained about at the time by fans of this or that supercouple who didn't want them separated.
BUT that's not what he (or the actors celebrating) are doing here.
They are mocking the *very concept* of fans criticizing them. As if the skills and hard work involved made them immune to us reacting to the end result.

I am sure writing is hard work - it is hard work whether you work great stuff or crap. Pointing out that it is crap is not invalidated by the fact it was hard work that required some skills we don't have. It is his job to use those skills and hard work to make something good. He is well-paid for it.
If a mason takes a year to build a house, and it is crooked, you'd better believe he will be criticized for it, no matter how much work he put into it and whatever professional skills he has that I don't.
If the end result sucks, he is going to have to hear the feedback and take it.

26 minutes ago, Orea Mou Kiria said:

Is this supposed to be a  "daytime first" sort of thing, or something that will turn B&B around "forever" again?

We have had it teased both ways

I love a lot of people involved in cheering him on here and I realize that there are people who are annoying and tell you how to do your job.

BUT if you work in the entertainment industry, people criticizing what you put out for our entertainment is NOT the same as telling a doctor what they should be doing.
Acting, writing, producing is about pleasing people. IT IS THE POINT.

When we say "the story you are writing is bad", we are not criticizing the technical skills involved, the way someone criticizing the paralegal was. We are criticizing the end result, the way I would criticize my lawyer if he lost my case.
If you can't take feedback from fans or criticism when something doesn't work, maybe show-business is not for you

An unheard twist for B&B? Hmmm

Brooke says "No" to a man?

One thing I am pretty sure would have happened with Stanwyck is that Angela would not have anchored the show almost all throughout.
Granted, the writing for Angela and FC was better than anything they gave her at The Colbys but the way she reacted over there and trashed the show tells me she wasn't the kind of actress with the patience to pull through the inevitable run of bad stories that come with being on a long-time soap.
I bet she would have bailed, which is gratuitous on my part obviously.