FrenchBug82

1 hour ago, Paul Raven said:

For Nikki to be on her 3rd marriage by the time she wed Victor seemed in accord with her flighty nature (although some of her later marriages shouldn't have happened) But Ashley, Jack and Victoria stand out as having way too many trips down the aisle.

On the underlying criticism, I fully agree. 

But I am going to play Devil's advocate a little.

For instance, Nikki's first marriages may make sense because of her flighty nature but I don't think they make as much sense as she got older. The experience she had with Jack and Victor should have made her less marriage-happy. Her marriage to Steve Landers was in particular plot-driven and never made sense to me.

And inversely I think Jack being marriage happy can in a way be explained by his overcompensating for his irresponsible youth now that the Bergman recast had turned Jack into a forever-looking-for-love kind of guy.

Victoria being marriage-happy was also established when she was focused on marrying Ryan despite there being no rush and being underage. I thought it was stupid at the time but in a way one could say that set up this as being part of the character.

But in the end I agree. I think the reason it stands out a lot more for Victoria and Ashley, as well as Jack to an extent, is that a lot of their marriages were to minor characters who disapeared quickly and didn't make much of a mark (and often for plot-driven reasons and little actual chemistry).
 

Is this really where everyone thinks this is going?
Coz it would be really weird to set up an elaborate retcon to give Sheila an insta-son only to kill him off after a few months.

3 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Blade and Ashley was a non event. This is when Bill Bell's 'try things out onscreen approach' failed dismally.

The story would definitely have been a little bit easier to be invested in if they had had even some minor chemistry. This instead was cold fish and pretty obviously a relationship created artificially to set up the story which is a no-no.
Get people invested in the couple and THEN create obstacles.
 

4 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

And why marry Ashley and Blade? It made no sense at the time and longterm just gave Ashley another marriage  on her resume that made her look foolish and fickle.

The whole story could have played the same with them as a couple. Play up Ashley's reluctance to commit based on her track record.

Same with Cole- a relationship if we must but not a marriage.

And soaps overmarrying their characters is definitely one of these things I will never understand. That has died down somewhat but Bell was the worst offender.
All the drama about Victoria wanting to underage-marry Ryan for some reason used to drive me nuts back in the day. 

40 minutes ago, j swift said:

It was in true Bell-style to name a character Blade Bladeson.

Humorously I wondered if his twin was so jealous because he took the only "cool" nickname in the family.  I mean Rick is hardly as unique.  And, Son Bladeson doesn't have the right ring to it.

I checked because I had always assumed Blade was just a nickname based on his last name and his birth name was indeed Alexander Bladeson.

4 hours ago, j swift said:

The Bladeson brothers saga is best left in the past

The very only thing that was a positive in that whole saga was that it gave Brenda Epperson some really really nice scenes once she found out.
But since that was basically the end of the story and actually if I remember correctly her own exit as well, even those were bittersweet.
Although I will say that considering the avalanche of absolutely horrible doppleganger stories Y&R inflicted on us in the subsequent twenty years (Sarah Carter as Lauren, Sheila as Phyllis, Patty as Emily, Marco as Jack...) this story seems quaintly mundane in its mediocrity in comparison.

I mean Kim wasn't wrong...

6 minutes ago, David_Vickers said:

IF the show goes with Rey & Chelsea it's yet another butchering of a character.   I agree, Rey shouldn't even be friendly with Chelsea after she almost killed him. 

I am an incorrigible optimist so if this is the setup for them to leave in the sunset together, I will accept it.

12 minutes ago, Khan said:

I think most viewers found the premise (of Nazi treasure being buried on FC's grounds?) to be preposterous; and the casting of Paul Freeman, who played a similarly antagonistic role in "Raiders of the Lost Ark," didn't help matters either.

As a general rule there should be a Godwin's law for adding anything Nazi-related to any show not set during WW2.
It never works.
 

2 hours ago, Khan said:

God bless Maura West, but she was seriously miscast as Diane.  Y&R would have been better off bringing her on as Sharon's long-lost half-sister.

She was so perfect for Y&R acting-wise, just not in that role. Alas we can't rewrite history.

On a side note, I am always fascinated that they never found the time or interest to revisit the identity of Sharon's father and all the possibilities on that side of her family.

I think I am going to call it the Krista Allen PR strategy but there is really something to be said for actors*resses who sound super friendly and enthusiastic about the job but have enough sense of humor to show they don't take it all too seriously.
I don't know how much it is worth in the end if what's on screen crashes and burns but for me it puts me in a space where at the outset my potential goodwill for a story/recast is significantly increased.

50 minutes ago, Khan said:

For sure, I think Cole, Maggie and Melissa all should have made it to the end.  Chase should have been there, too, even if he would have "turned heel" at some point. 

Firing Maggie and Melissa were definitely misfires but in all fairness if Moses and Foxworth didn't want to stay there was nothing much they could do.

I think it would have been too weird not to have either of Maggie's grown children around but can't deny they needed to write Vickie a lot better. Can barely remember anything she did and yet she was on the show, in one incarnation or another, for three quarters of the run.
My criticism, which rejoins what I was talking about earlier about turnover, is that they should have less time on incidental characters that ended up not mattering - like Greg and Jordan despite the actors being wonderful - and spend more time writing characters like Julia and Vickie a lot better.
The DID storyline, cliche as it was, could have easily been given to either of them. Heck it would have been a great way to keep Julia around even after she was revealed as the killer.

3 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Except Kyle isn't on the show anymore. So now he needs to come back. It's all quite convuluted and unnecessary.

Bringing on Allie was enough.

Right? Bringing back Kyle AFTER they resurrect Diane and including her revival inside another seemingly unrelated from-the-past-story all feels very trying to make it all fit after the fact rather than a well thought-out plan.

Bringing Allie on and reviving Diane were two fair enough options in isolation from each other. Combining them gives me too much of a whiff of improvisation to be entirely convinced there weren't BTS changes involved, even if titan's point makes sense.

3 minutes ago, titan1978 said:

I think if more people were working on the show from those more classic eras, maybe. But these are not those days, and I highly doubt anyone even thought of Mary Jo, or at least thought about it as a serious nod.  It’s pretty clear to me with the Kyle connection it was always Diane.

Fair.

Not that it would necessarily make much sense for MaryJo to be out and about AND to be around Keemo anyway since one of his last scenes is him telling Jack to stay away from her as she is bad news.
But Diane in the context of this story feels... random.

Yeah mid-2000s is when it went from weak-spots-but-still-Y&R to what-is-this-show-Iam-watching.

Also: what are the chances the current story was initially pitched with Mary Jo but when they realized Diana Barton wasn't acting anymore, they figured recasting would lessen the impact and they switched it to Diane?

2 hours ago, Khan said:

I would agree that there was a lot of turnover among FC's cast, with Jane Wyman, Lorenzo Lamas and David Selby (even though I don't think he was on the show until S2?) being the only real constants.

I think Margaret Ladd and Susan Sullivan also qualify. And Ana-Alicia last more than three-quarters of the way.

I looked at the people listed as main casts of all the shows and unfortunately my plan to do numbers is thwarted by the fact the lists provided don't compare the exact same things.
But still it gives a good indication.

I am not wrong that Falcon Crest had a high proportion of one or two seasoners - a high 17 out of 27 "main contract cast" were on contract for only one or two seasons (a handful of those were also recurring) and only 8 did more than 5 seasons.
However it does seem that Dynasty had a similarly small core cast and an enormous amount of one-season supporting contract players: 26 actors only did one year or two!!!!! And that's without counting the numerous recasts of main characters. 
Now I suspect that list is more complete and covers more characters than the ones I found for the other shows but it does seem that Dynasty had overall more turnover of supporting cast than FC.

Dallas had a more stable cast - 21 characters were "main cast", only 7 of whom only did one or two seasons and six of those were at the tail end of the last two years; so the heyday period of the show was pretty stable.
Finally Knots Landing had the benefit of running much longer than any of the above which boosts raw numbers but out of the 24 "main credits" cast members, only Lynne Moody lasted less than three seasons - and a cool half of that were there for at least half of the show's run. I would have bet it was the most stable cast so I am patting myself on the back there.
To be fair, I think the lists I am working from were comparing apples and pears: I think Christopher Atkins and Sam Behrens for instance would have qualified for that enormous supporting cast list if Dallas and KL credited the supporting cast in the main credits the way Dynasty and FC chose to.

But nevertheless interesting and I think it does fit the way each show was written - and cast. The latter two had a lot more stunt casting which explains why they were eager to credit people in the main cast more generously.

32 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

Who didn't want to be in that shower scene with Patrick Duffy? I remember the black Speedos he would wear on the show too.

I generally try not to discuss the looks of actors because I wouldn't want the reverse  but fourty years later I feel I can bring it up.

Am I the only one who... didn't really find Bobby that attractive? I mean I can see why a lot of people did and all - not my thing but sure - but his hair always looked like a wig to me and I used to find it so distracting. It was such a heavy unflattering hairstyle

Would I be wrong suggesting Falcon Crest had the highest main cast turnover of the primetime soaps? Or is it a function of it having been more generous with granting supporting actors a space in the main credits?
Every season it feels a good third of the cast lasted only one to two seasons at most.

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Same.

It's also very convenient that Clarence Thomas' whereabouts have been declared unknown and he is currently not reachable for comment or questioning.

Did this creeping sense that this news getting out and would lead to more precipitate a hospital stay for Thomas? Or at the very least, an extended stay?

Sorry but I dissent on this (see what I did there?).

Since when do Supreme Court Justices ever feel the need to respond to any news report at all? They don't do press conferences and don't interact with journalists.
They didn't need to fake a health care to avoid this. They can just do what they all have done... stay silent and wait until it fades away from the news cycle.
SCOTUS Justices do not ever have to answer to anything; hence the impunity with which Thomas behaves. Noone can force them to recuse etc and while they technically can be impeached, the nuclear reaction of Republicans would make this toxic but the most obvious clear-cut proven accusation (he raped a child or something)

I have no question this is a real health scare. The rest of my commentary on it will stay in my head out of human decency, even for someone who doesn't deserve it.

5 minutes ago, Khan said:

As one Jessica Beatrice Fletcher of Cabot Cove, ME would say, Ginni slipped.  Badly.

In 2010, Ginni Thomas CALLED Anita Hill at home to demand she apologize and explain who put her up to "what she did".

She isn't slipping. She has already been at the very bottom of the sanity and decency pond for a long while.

2 hours ago, Khan said:

So, that's how you get a job writing for a soap?  You kiss the HW's ass?

"Wow, Ron, this story with Chad, Leo, Sonny and Will is on fleek!  YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS hun-tee!"

Great, I'm still not working on a writing staff AND I feel dead inside.

 

I would direct your attention to RC's Twitter interaction a week or two ago when he scoffed at the idea that viewers were his boss.
The implication being: his boss is KC, not the viewers and he is the one RC cares to keep onside.
I thought it was very telling then and it is even more so when you imagine that he then reproduces that dynamic with the people under his own supervision.

Popular culture like to celebrate crazy geniuses and loners and rebels among artists but we can't be fools that success in show-business is often as much about who you know, who likes you and how you handles the people who have power than raw talent. People with no social skills rarely thrive and a lot of stars are just mediocre people with great social skills.
And I'd say a good creator would use that brown-nosing to then give himself more space to do creative things and the problem here is that instead it seems things are being created to brown-nose
 

1 hour ago, soapfan770 said:

Lol. Wagner and KKL was definitely a far cry from the warm & fuzzy nostalgic moment that WH and KKL had.

I will go to my grave arguing that while I get Brooke/Ridge as the end game, Thorne was the best pairing Brooke had.
Spending two years making me root for them only to break them up in a week because of an off-hand comment Brooke made is still one of my bitterest soap moments ever.

16 minutes ago, Khan said:

First, Clarence is sick and in the hospital; and now, Ginni's been caught conspiring to overturn the election.  Coincidence?

The timing of these revelations is extremely interesting for sure.
THAT SAID, Ginnie Thomas had "volunteered" just two weeks ago that she had "briefly" attended the 1/6 rally but left early because "it was cold". It felt like advance damage control then so I think she knew this was coming, before CT fell ill.

12 minutes ago, Vee said:

Tessa and Mariah's fanbase only really hit full flow recently, AFAIC. They'll survive. Y&R can do whatever it wants, it chooses not to here for ulterior motive, as it has for a couple years now.

As a gay fan I'll say, as I've said before, that I think the entire, shitty purpose of pairing Mariah with a tertiary, unpopular (for most of her run, anyway) woman in the first place was to section Camryn Grimes off from any leading frontburner story with men the show and/or network had earmarked for female leads they found more conventionally desirable. They think she's too ordinary for Kyle or Devon but it's fine to throw this chick at her. Ugly to say, but I absolutely think that's the toxic mindset and we've seen it before in daytime with lots of str8 characters. And in doing it this way they were able to claim it was progressive and forward-thinking.

There's nothing wrong with Mariah being bi, and you can play drama with her and Tessa or any number of other more interesting women in the future. You can do it right now with her and any woman, not just men, and take time away from Abby or Victoria! But AFAIC they want to keep her where she is to keep her away from leading story with the rest of the show. That is an admittedly ugly perspective. Sadly, as a gay viewer who has seen this happen both with gay characters and with attractive leads of any orientation who do not fit into a proscribed box, I also think it is 100% the truth.

I have read you mention that analysis before and let me tell you: I fully 1000% agree that this is exactly what happened. No question in my mind that you are absolutely right.
And that the Tessa/Mariah fanbase thing is a convenient excuse. But just like DG proved a convenient excuse can last a long time when TPTB don't want to do something.
It will take a writer who comes in and sees the potential to rip the bandaid and, hopefully give Mariah a chance.

There is still so much that could be done with this cast of characters more broadly. You don't need a big budget if you know how to write. I just watched clips over several weeks of Diane agonizing over whether to take Victor's divorce settlement or hold out for more money and various character pitching in.
It is as low-stakes drama as can be on the merits and yet those scenes have so much weight, so many layers for every character that gives their opinion based on their thoughts on Diane and on Victor and I wasn't bored at all twenty five years later. And it only takes a couple of living rooms, a decent script and a bunch of good actors. 

It is not easy but it should not be that hard.

1 hour ago, soapfan770 said:

Ho yes the Nick scenes we’re cringeworthy but hey with it being the 35th anniversary I suppose it was to honor the very cringeworthy years of 2006-2010? Because that montage straight out of the period. 

That was my reaction. All of it felt very... Nick and Jack Wagner-y so it didn't really jump at me as being more cringeworthy than most of the fare we got on that damn boat.

1 hour ago, Vee said:

(That being said, I also never really felt Summer was the only answer to a starring female role in any and all twentysomething storylines, especially with Mariah around, so...)

Lord knows I completely agree with you there but a Devil's advocate would point out that the rabid Tess/Mariah fans have more or less locked the writers into not doing much with her until they can figure out how to break her out of it without fury.
They broke Lily out of Cane so they can do it but until they grow a pair, we can't count on Mariah having the kind of stories Camryn Grimes can and should be carrying.