Vanguardian

Count me in with the group who doesn't need a rival family. There is way more than enough story to tell with just the Lyons and their associates. They have different levels of rivalries with each other, but that's also balanced with levels of love and support. The show's heart and soul lies in that one conflict, IMO. A rival family wouldn't work because then all of the Lyons have a common enemy, and while that might be good (it was good for about 5 minutes two episodes ago), it takes away a lot of what we like about the show -- the Lyons pitted against each other while still rooting for each other.

This is fine. We can do without a rival family then. I agree that there are and WERE plenty of opportunities with just the Lyons and their associates. They seemed to introduce some interesting aspects in this first season, but inexplicably did nothing with it for some reason. I'll keep my eye on whether or not they do something more substantive with this family in season 2. They've laid some groundwork. Let's see if they build on it or drop it altogether.

Thank you for commenting...Can you let it go, please...Those of us that enjoy the show get it. There are some flaws. It's not perfect. We got that five posts ago.

HAHA! If you're referring to me, guess what? I intend to keep pointing out these flaws until the writers get it.

I've never watched Power but I give them mad credit for leveraging Empire in even a small way.

"Empires are built on Power."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pi-KPkopII

Now THIS is a soap opera! I've seen this show. It understands storyline continuity and real dramatic aspects very well. Why 50 cent even bothered accusing Empire writers/producers of stealing anything from him, I'll never know.

I agree with you. Once upon a time I thought having a rival family would have been a great idea. But that was because I wanted a Romeo and Romeo love story for Jamal for purely selfish reasons.

But considering all the blunders we've seen with shows like Sleepy Hollow, who found success early with their AA cast only then to marginalize them in season 2 for white characters, I don't want that possibility here. I can just hear the network execs looking at the ratings report saying, "if we added some more white people...". I'll pass!

I think that the formula thus far has worked. Don't try to fix what's not broken.

Even if another family isn't added, they need to actually write for the family that they do have. Dropped/inconsistent drama is not writing. Oh, and there's plenty that's broken, but of course, that's my opinion.

I think adding some major rival family out of fanfiction would just turn the show into another tired daytime soap clone. I have little interest in that. This show is not Y&R and it's not daytime, it is not about many families, it's about this family and this business. Empire is a hit, there's no need to make it into something else to make it more palatable to hidebound daytime fans.

This isn't about fanfiction and it's not about daytime! It's about how this show keeps being referred to by the writers as a SOAP OPERA! It needs to ACT like one, a good STEADY one at least. I "love" how the season has now ended with no revisiting of Cookie's arranged hit. What was that for without follow up? Olivia came along, dumped a child on Jamal claiming she was his, she abruptly left, Jamal and Lola bonded briefly with no one in the family demanding a paternity test, Olivia returns with some thug by her side threatening to kill the family, he's shot dead while Lucious claims to be Lola's father, Olivia reclaims Lola and they leave for parts unknown while Jamal and the family seem to have no reaction about him not being Lola's father nor any reaction about Lucious being Lola's father and they simply carry on like nothing has happened. What was that plotline for? There were no real consequences to it. And Lucious, given the kind of person he is, just allowed Olivia to leave with his daughter? What about Anika and Hakeem screwing and being busted by Lucious? Lucious catches his woman fuc*ing his youngest son, and he didn't bother to get in her face about it afterwards? Lucious not responding was not a soapy response at all. Then they end this sh!tty season by killing off what was probably one of the show's best weapons: Vernon! This show needs to earn the title of soap opera.

My season two wish list is simple:

1. Extend the season. I could go for 20 but I think a lot can be accomplished in just 16 episodes if the writing is there.

2. Bring on that much-needed rival family to shake things up and add new dimensions.

3. Present less music. Yes, I understand the premise is all about music, but sometimes less is more. I think no more than two musical performances per episode would be more than enough to help maintain the show's premise.

4. Fix the pacing and create some REAL storyline arcs. I think Melrose Place (also formerly on FOX) had the perfect pacing. It wasn't too fast nor was it too slow. The characters on that show all had story arcs which extended from one episode to the next. Melrose Place is the style that Empire should adopt.

The finale was terrible by the way.

Andre by far has been the most interesting character these last two episodes. Wow.

In my opinion, he's the shows best weapon, drama wise. At this point, more drama and less music would be awesome.

WTF they're having a moment in the elevator then boom they're out and nobody cares. Dafuq, Empire?

Severely disappointed tonight.

This elevator moment between these three was a welcome moment, I thought, and long overdue.

WTF they're having a moment in the elevator then boom they're out and nobody cares. Dafuq, Empire?

Severely disappointed tonight.

Both Bunky's murder and Cookie's hit are almost certainly not gone for good, IMO. They're just not being frontloaded right now. No one knows what Cookie did yet. I don't get people who say they need to dwell on that every single episode.

This isn't about dwelling on Cookie's actions every single episode. In how many places has it been said that Empire is a soap opera? Well, most soap operas tend to pick up immediately where they left off, especially when it comes to seemingly significant plot points. Here, Cookie's actions were treated as if they never happened. No remorse on her part. No sense of guilt on her part. No sense that she was rattled by what she'd done.

I think 22 episodes can be every bit as satisfying as 13. As I said above, there were plenty of things in this episode alone that could've been a full episode on their own. I hope that S2 has a few more episodes to it. Preferably 15-18 so we don't end up with situations like Raven Symone showing up for a full minute then disappearing. I consider that a serious misstep.

I'm down with lengthier seasons as well. I think this show needs it, to be honest. The Raven Symone issue was just one of several missteps in this first season. I thought Cuba Gooding, Jr. could have been used for more than just one episode since he had a significant tie to both Cookie and Lucious. Cookie turning informant and her orchestrating a murder should've been threads with further exploration. Even Bunkie's murder was ridiculously mishandled. I still think a new rival family coinciding with the Lyons should be the next phase for season 2. Dueling families whose lives all become intertwined is classic and always fun to watch.

This show is running hot and cold for me. There are things that it does right and things that it does wrong in my opinion. My biggest beef? Continuity issues. Cookie orchestrated a killing a couple of episodes back and it's as if it didn't even happen, judging by Cookie's behavior afterwards. A presumed golddigger shows up last week with a child in tow in which she claims is Jamal's, and she makes no follow up appearance this week. She's seemingly left the child with the Lyons, and the Lyons have seemingly accepted this child as a member of the family without question. No paternity test at least?

Things are happening so fast. I thought it would take a lot longer for Lucious' illness to be revealed to everyone. Actually, I thought Cookie would somehow find out on her own while Lucious continued to fight to keep his illness a secret.

anybody seen this

Interesting video! I'm further curious about the Uncle Vernon/Andre dynamic. They both seem to consider themselves as outsiders, and it appears that these two have been schemers in cahoots for quite some time, so I'm interested in seeing what happens there. Did I see Uncle Vernon putting Andre in a head lock? What's up with that?

I hope next season they move a little slower.

I hope next season they have an entire new family on the show for the Lyons to have a bitter rivalry with.

Cookie clearly has no use for Andre. She'll unknowingly regret that, I'm sure.

You can, but we are not entitled to care.

I didn't ask you or anyone else to care Boo Boo Kitty, did I? I'm not going to engage in this over a tv show. Have a nice day!

No offense but if Empire is not appeasing you then simply give it up. I thought the ending was cute. I don't need every episode of a show to end in some shocking cliffhanger. That crap gets old. Shock element for an ending is played out. Just the cute banter between Cookie and Lucious was enough for me to come back next week.

Sorry, I'm not giving it up just yet, but I'm going to offer my criticisms, which I'm entitled to by the way, until whenever. Shock elements being played out for an ending is your opinion of course. I guess this show can get away with all the shoddiness it wants now that it's already been renewed.

Another thing that bothered me about this episode is that it didn't even bother to end with at least a semi-formidable cliffhanger. It ended with some playful crap between Lucious and Cookie. Where was the cliffhanger to rope the audience into next week?

My thoughts

1. The show has finally shown us that Kitty and Lucious have something real. She isn't just arm candy or someone that he is with because of what she brings to the table. It's not just convenience. I loved the scene with Kitty and Lucious when he tells her he is dying and she shaves him with tears in her eyes. She doesn't weep and wail. She has strength! More strength than Lucious gives her credit for. That is going to come to bite him in the butt with her. I see her surprising him when she doesn't just slink away when he gets with Cookie cause that is going to happen. Segue...

2. Cookie Lyons. She is still carrying this show IMO. The highlight for her her this week was her outsmarting everyone and going to see Titans mother. It takes a mother to understand that connection and see the benefits of paying her a visit. No one else in that room thought to do that. It works because all were men except Kitty and I assume she has no children. I really like how Cookie embraced Tianna. She seemed to genuinely like her. Another segue

3. Tianna is not what I expected at all from when I first met her. I really like how the show presents a character and allows you to form opinions but have you change it as the charatcer's are fleshed out. Tianna is a VERY smart and ambitious girl. Most women would have acting a fool if they walked in on their man with another woman. She didn't. And when he thought she would have an attitude, she was about business. I respect her for not allowing Hakeem to ruin what she had worked hard for. I can't wait to see how she handles this. I doubt the fall out from that will be this easy.

4. Andre and Lucious relationship were fleshed out more. Andre is ride or die and has been from the beginning. He worked hard for that company from childhood. He had promising talent as a child. I wonder what happened there. Is he hiding it? Does the medicine he take stifle it?

5. Lucious. Does everyone know that Cookie is his weakness? Everyone but her, that is? I am interested to see where this show goes with Beretti.

There are alot of storylines going on the show. Am I the only one that thinks it's too much? Lucious is dealing with ALS, battling love interests, relationships with his sons, trying to elude being caught for murder, now he has a business rival, and just inserted himself into some gang warfare when he signed Titan. It's a but much. Or is it just me?

I don't think any of it is a bit much, I do think all of it is improperly executed to the point of blandness. Where's the REAL crazy?

He really took a swing at my baby Andre in the previews and I'm not feeling it at all. Lucius is so mean....

At this point, I think that Andre and his dilemma along with his mysteriously skeevy wife is probably the best weapon that this show has. More of them, please!

Sigh! Didn't like this episode! I'm hanging in there but I'm starting to fear a style over substance deal with the show.

I saw on Tumblr that the actor who plays Andre can actually sing. No doubt this will play into the show somehow.

After catching up with the episodes:

1. If Lee were smart, he'd take heed of what they've done to Sleepy Hollow (allowed a fail character to dominate the show at the expense of the integral (Black) characters to the show's detriment) and Grey's Anatomy (allow an egotistical actress to dictate storyline at the expense of the show's quality) and avoid those pitfalls so that Empire can enjoy a fruitful nighttime soap life.

2. Lee had better give Anika layers beyond being the 'snotty light-skinned bitch' pretty soon or else he'll be guilty of pulling the same sh!t that Tyler Perry does (relying on that tired paper-bag trope to draw his characters). Someone mentioned her and Hakeem developing a genuine rapport with one another as an organic way to get under Cookie's skin and I'd much rather see that kind of jab than what I've seen thus far.

3. Like everyone, I'm Team Jamal. My only fear is that Lee may decide to give him some sort of "edge" (IMO, make him unrootable and intolerable enough to want him off my screen) to pacify whiners a segment of the audience who complain about mythical don't care for Gary Stus.

4. I'll admit that one of the reasons why I don't care for Andre is because I'm over seeing a Black man being dominated by a white woman. It's never been a good look onscreen and it's tainting any sympathy that I could have for that character (well, that and him being the true bitch of the show instead of Jamal).

5. 3 episodes in and nope, I don't see it for Señor Baby Wipes as the titular Puffy Combs titan that Lee wants me to see him as. It doesn't help that I find him absolutely loathsome in real life, but the Lucious that should be onscreen is the dynamic and charismatic bastard (a la Puffy Combs in real life or JR Ewing in fictional land) that I should love to hate. Since Silky T has the onscreen presence of a moldy tampon, I'll forever mourn the producers letting Wesley Snipes (who would've been absolutely electric, despite Lucious being sort of a call-back to Nino Brown from New Jack City) slip through their fingers.

6. I never thought that Hakeem was as ugly as many others do (my theory for why some do is a whole other subject for another day) and am glad that they're giving him enough layers to balance out the Ike Brown mannerisms. I'm hoping that his dalliance with Queen Naomi actually delves deeper into his mommy issues and that they don't drop the ball on this.

7. Cookie J. Blige is the Queen of Wednesday night. That is all.

I actually agree with some of this. I kinda wonder where this show goes after the main premise inevitably comes to an end? I suppose new characters and new storyline doors will have to become a reality at some point in the next season. I hope that this show gets a lot deeper at some point. We're talking about the world of hip hop, and there's a lot of stuff to be mimed there. I figure a show like this would be filled with evildoers coming and going left and right. I don't mind camp and humor. I just hope it doesn't overwhelm the show to the point where we don't get the real "meat and potatoes" out of it. Speaking of Wesley Snipes, I get the feeling that all is not lost on that front. I can certainly see him being brought on as Anika's menacing ex-husband, Tyrone.

I'll take that. Although I question Kitty's staying power on the show. With a scheming mother she might stand a better chance.

I think Kitty will stick around long enough to sleep with one of Lucious' sons. Jamal perhaps? Naughty!

I'm actually kind of disappointed in Andre. He started off in the pilot as showing poise and class. I thought he might've been that big brother who solicited sage advice to his younger siblings, especially Hakeem. But it looks like Andre is more screwed up and needs the advice more from them.