vetsoapfan

20 hours ago, asafi said:

wow. so basically tom-alice-mickey-bill-addie-tommy junior are all dead. and the only one living is marie. it's sad.

hopefully marie, Jen and hope will return to Doug's memorial and we'll see many many unseen flashbacks. 

Doug also has a biological son named Doug LeClaire, who existence has never been brought up over the last several decades. The show could do something with that angle, if they wished to carry on Doug Williams' legacy.

19 minutes ago, jam6242 said:

Sorry @vetsoapfan, didn't mean to quote you when I posted this.  Don't know how that happened. 

No problem. Glitches happen. It alerted me to your post and allowed me to catch the photo pf Tina Andrews...who looks so different from her time on DAYS!

3 hours ago, watson71 said:

In real life Dwyer lived until 2012.  If she was in good health, and Lemay hadn’t killed the character of Mary- the character could have remained on the AW canvas for its entire run.

Like Helen Wagner on ATWT and Mary Stuart on SFT. It would have been wonderful!

6 hours ago, Xanthe said:

Could they be Janice with Tim McGowan?

Yes.

5 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Thanks for the information.  I'm happy Ms Dwyer wasn't omitted from AW's 10th anniversary episode.  I do know she was often treated shabbily by Mr. Lemay and Mr Rauch.   

I agree, but at least on the show's tenth anniversary, Mary was given her due.

I am so glad I kept the episode, and that it survived for decades until it could be digitized!

5 hours ago, TVFAN1144 said:

I don’t remember the character of Mary standing out. Kind of lackluster.  Other matriarchs had a stronger presence like domineering Nancy Hughes and Bert Bauer and even Alice Horton

Out of curiosity, what years did you watch AW during Mary Matthews' time there?

6 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Is it true that Mary Matthews does not appear in the wedding episode (and AW's 10th anniversary)?  Although I was watching AW daily during that period, I unfortunately missed the wedding episode.  I've seen reports online that Mary was said to be "out of town" for the wedding episode, and all of Mary's lines were transferred to Liz.  Does anyone know if that is accurate.  It is clear, Mary is not included in the wedding photo.    

Mary Matthews is indeed on the 10th anniversary episode, and in fact, appears quite prominently.

Virginia Dwyer is missing from some of the publicity photos of the wedding, but Mary did attend the ceremony and was in other scenes during the day as well.

Check out the entire episode from May 3, 1974 on Eddie Drueding's AW Home Page.

http://www.anotherworldhomepage.com/tenthanniversary.html

4 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Interesting.  You are likely correct, but I had almost forgotten about Kurt Landis.  Now I'm wondering why Iris was at Alice and Steve's wedding.  Iris was never close to Alice, although she quickly lost her animosity toward Alice after Alice and Steve reunited.  But still, the two women never became friends.  Maybe Iris attended the wedding because of Steve??  I remember Iris contracted with Frame Enterprises to build her house in Bay City.   Could the wedding have taken place around the same time Steve was building Iris's new house?   Otherwise, I haven't a clue why Iris would have attended that wedding.     

I don't recall the details, but even at the time I found it curious that Iris would be at Alice's wedding to Steven. I would not have been surprised to see Ada there (she did not attend the ceremony) because of her close relationship with Mary, but Iris? Hmmm.

3 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

At the time of Alice and Steve's second wedding, Iris was either dating Russ, or engaged to him.  By the time Alice married that loser Ray Gordon, I think Iris and Russ had broken up.  So not sure why Iris would have attended the Alice/Ray wedding, but perhaps she did.

Not to be contrary, but in May of 1974, I am pretty sure Iris was involved with Kurt Landis, whom she brought as a date to Steve's and Alice's wedding. (The episode is available in its entirety on Eddie Drueding's Another World Home Page.) I know iris and Russ were together in 1975, and she was there to comfort him when Mary Matthews died on Good Friday of that year.

3 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Iris maintained a close friendship with Russ, which was referenced often throughout the 1970s and again in 1988-89. And Iris was very close friends with Liz Matthews during the entire time Beverlee McKenzie was in the role.  When Carmen Duncan played Iris, the friendship with Liz was completely forgotten and the two women had very few scenes together.   Interestingly, Iris had very little interaction with either Alice or Pat (after her initial plot pitting her against Alice and Elliot) -- almost no interaction with the two Matthews sisters really.  They just weren't in Iris's orbit, I suppose.   Iris did have lots of scenes with John Randolph, because he was her attorney.   

I remember she drifted out of the Matthewses' lives and had little/no interaction with most of them as the years went on.

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I know that Iris and her anger over Alice's relationship with Elliot/bond with Dennis was used to help reunite Alice and Steve. Did Iris and Alice, or Alice and Dennis, ever have any major interaction after that story ended? I wonder if the show ever thought of the story potential of pairing Dennis and Sally.

As I recall, Alice and Iris didn't have a lot of interaction in later years, although Iris was invited to Alice's second marriage to Steven. I think she was present when Alice married Ray Gordon as well.

4 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I agree. I suppose Liz Hubbard and Helen Wagner also knew what it was like to be out of the show and back in (even if that never stopped Eileen - although she was generous when at the Paley Center goodbye to ATWT she thanked Goutman for keeping her on).

It was priceless. I still wonder how they snuck that in. And she said it in the middle of godawful screeching from Molly, who was shoved down the throats of viewers at that time.

To be fair, I do suppose that if Goutman had been hell-bent on axing the vets, he could have campaigned to fire them outright. As far as we know, anyway, he did not try to do that.

Molly, Katie, NuCraig, NuPaul, NuDusty, Henry...there were so many abrasive characters who were shoved down our throats in later years. I found many of the most-featured actors to be unbearable in those final years. But again to be fair, different viewers had different favorites. This has always been the case on soaps. It must be a challenge to balance out the interests and desires of all the different fanbases.

1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

The last time I remember any statements from her along these lines was when she was interviewed around 1998 or 1999 (whenever the yacht sinking was), which was also around the time of the priceless scene where Penny exclaimed "who ARE these people?" to Ellen. I think even by that point she may have been more guarded.

As the years went on, it was clear TPTB on many soaps did not respect their vets as much as they once did. I think savvy veteran performers knew it was in their best interest to be discreet in their public statements.

(That comment by Penny was hilarious, and echoed what many viewers were thinking, I'm sure!)

9 hours ago, TEdgeofNight said:

Knowing how abrupt and straight forward Helen Wagner could be, I wonder what her response was to Hogan Sheffer. Helen wasn't a shrinking violet. 

Wagner was very vocal, and made her displeasure about being sidelined quite clear, back in the early 1980s when she was off contract for a few years. During the 2000s, however, I don't recall her making any public comments about how little Nancy was being used. Maybe she felt that her current position on the canvas was tenuous, and she did not not to rock the boat too much.

Eileen Fulton, on the other hand, was a different story, and not shy at all about showing her resentment about Lisa's diminished capacity on the show. When being asked in a filmed, one-on-one interview about the various writers on ATWT, she offered a clipped and obviously irritated, "I have nothing to say!" when Sheffer was brought up. 

In a panel discussion, when Jean Passanante was discussing writing for the soap, Fulton snarked, "You left ME out of it!" Passanante was clearly startled and didn't know how to reply, but the conversation quickly moved on and the tense moment passed.

7 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Which reminds me when JER wrote Alice being killed (by choking on a donut no less)and someone said he was getting rid of all the "old people" FR reportedly s said something along the lines of "Who is he kidding, does he think he is a teenager himself.." and a disparaging comment on his weight.  You do not screw with these old pros who have seen it all and have nothing to loose!

OMG, I had never heard anything like that before. Go, Frances Reid!!!! Woohoo! Give him hell!

1 hour ago, te. said:

IIRC, it was because DvD's character has been in the same war as Tommy.

Plus, they had already shown some rare flashbacks in relation with Mikey's amnesia  on Suzanne's 50th anniversary.

Oh, that's interesting. If DvD's character had also been in the Korean war, it would make sense that he had vague feelings about it.

2 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Now Sheffer was not my favorite but my memory of this is that in an interview he says he bumped into Wagner in the hallway and she said "You haven't been writing for me much!" and he admitted it and said, "She is our matriarch, she needs to be written for"..so maybe it was a different interview but he was not being rude here.

That's definitely not an interview/story I read. In it, Hogan related the story of Wagner asking him to be used more on the show. He was quoted as saying that she may have been the matriarch, but he was going to write the show as he saw fit.  My problem is not that he asserted his rights as the writer, per se, but that he revealed to the public a veteran actress had asked for more attention from her own series, and had been turned down by a newbie writer who didn't appear to understand the soap very well. Had I been Wagner, I would have been humiliated.

2 hours ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

Worse than SORASing Leah (which I could deal with because it's done so frequently on soaps) is that they didn't SORAS her older brother Jude who then became her younger brother. As well as just being stupid, it had all sorts of storyline implications like the fact that that meant Rick must've cheated on Mel with Harley at some point. Just one of a million stupid decisions made toward the end of the show. 

Yep. It was one idiotic decision after another.

2 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

No. No more information. But he's come up again since then. This was when Julie was telling Leo, Horton family history. In the aftermath of the burning of Horton House. Leo, as gossip columnist, was it seems going to write a serious piece on Salem history for the paper. (This episode was the first & also so far only time I have not hated Leo.)

When Julie was sitting with Robichaux (who DVD turned out to be) he said something she said reminded her of her Uncle Tommy. That's when we found out, amazingly, that Tommy Jr. has passed on. If you are interested enough we can figure the date of the episode & I can get you an mp4 file of it. Although it might already be up on YT. As a matter of fact, I'm going to go now to YT & see.

Edit: Bingo! 

Enjoy! 

Thank you. That was very helpful. It saddens me that the show has killed him off, but at least we know Tommy's fate, now.

A kind poster has just told me that in scenes with Dick Van Dyke on DAYS, Julie Williams brought up her long-unmentioned uncle Tommy Horton, Jr., saying that he had had amnesia long ago and that he has passed away.

I was so used to Tommy's living in oblivion, with no mention of his whereabouts or what had ever happened to him.

Did Julie give any details about him or his death?

(I'm sure the answer will be no, TPTB wouldn't care that much, but I am curious.)

Thanks in advance.

2 minutes ago, Forever8 said:

Alan Locher is doing a mini–Family Reunion on March 13th with Gary Frank and John Rubinstein. 

 

I'll even endure Alan Locher to see this!!!

7 hours ago, Matt said:

Tommy is officially dead.  Julie mentioned it during scenes with Dick Van Dyke when relating the story of Tommy's own amnesia.

Seriously? I had no idea. At least now we know, after TPTB exiled the character to oblivion for so long, without explanation.

Uncle Mickey had amnesia much more recently than Tommy. I wonder why the writers chose to talk about Tommy instead of him.

Thanks for letting me know.

I don't suppose Julie explained how and when he passed.

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

There had been a few Dons over the years and he didn't have the importance of Penny, the lead heroine. Also Bob, Ellen had been recast so Penny was a much loved original character and actress.

I wrote recently that some actors are just irreplaceable, and viewers can tell by instinct who they are. Once Don Hastings took over the role of Bob, he became one of them, but Rosemary Prinz had always been Penny, and the audience had a fierce attachment to her in the part from day one.

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Penny was brought back in the two years Irna was not writing the show. I've never been able to verify exactly when Pheobe Dorin debuted or how long she lasted. Not long it seems, as she didn't have any story.

The actress turned up in 1971 and only stayed part of that year, as I recall. Penny didn't have much to do other than interact with family members. My gut told me that TPTB were trying to slowly make the audience accept her as being part of the Hughes family before giving her any front-burner storyline. But while Dorin was adequate enough in the role, she just wasn't "our" Penny and never felt like a real part of the family. I was relieved when they had the character leave town again.

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

When Irna left, the show was still #1 and the jewel in the CBS daytime crown. That's why I am always puzzled as to why Joel Kane was chosen as her replacement. He had no daytime experience. Maybe after working with the all powerful Irna, P&G wanted more control and chose a writer they felt would be more malleable. Who knows?

I've never seen any articles from the time talking about this,

does anyone know more?

@vetsoapfan @Reverend Ruthledge

Joe Kane only lasted for a while in 1970, before being replaced by Winifred Wolfe and Warren Swanson, whose work did not impress me. By early 1972, Irna was associated with the show again, whether or not P&G thought she was a pain in the a$$, LOL. When Robert Soderberg and Edith Sommer took over next, the writing was very good, and Oakdale felt like home once more for the next 5+ years.

8 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

What did you think of the relationship between Phillip Spaulding and Rick Bauer? To me, it seemed as if Phillip was supposed to be the “Alpha” male, while Rick was always the…well, not to be mean, but the “Beta”. Someone probably thought that, with Rick being from a surviving core family, they’d try to make him an “Alpha”, which is not a convincing role for him, especially as portrayed by Michael O’Leary, an actor best suited for playing the comedic sidekick, not the heavy, as portrayed by Grant Aleksander.

While I am  not a fan of much of what Pamela Long wrote during her original run on the show, I feel she "got" and developed the relationship between Rick and Phillip better than any other writer. (She was also the only one, IMHO, who understood and could write realistic humanity into Reva.) Under Long, Rick and Phillip had a strong  emotional bond which couldn't be put into a conventional box. It often felt like Rick had subconscious feelings for Phillip, and that Phillip could not bear to see Rick be closer to anyone else other than him. Pam Long said that O'Leary asked her point blank if Rick were in love with Phillip, because that's how many of their scenes played out.

8 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Maybe as an adult, Chris Hughes needed a “Rick Bauer” type to offer a contrast. Phillip and even Rick seemed like much better developed characters than Chris. Viewers at least saw the final stages of their teenage years into adulthood. Did we even see a teenage Chris Hughes with friends like we saw Andy and Paul or was it a Casey Hughes-like situation? Seemed as if Casey was slingshot into adulthood directly from early adolescence.

I don't believe Chris Hughes had a relationship with anyone else like Rick Bauer had with Phillip, and to me, Chris' lack of realistic peer relationships kept the character from being fully developed and realized. It was a combination of poor, uncommitted writing and generally weak casting. Did the audience ever truly become emotionally involved with Chris? I think Rick "gelled" better in his earlier years because of the effective relationships he was given with the other Musketeers. But he grew wearisome and ineffective in later years, alas.

8 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

And Chris Hughes seemed to go through that same transition. Maybe who paid more attention to Chris Hughes maturation process someone can tell me if he had a teenage cohort, or a high school girlfriend or a graduation like other characters in the past.

I don't recall seeing much of a maturation process for Chris. He kept coming and going, and the show didn't seem to follow through with anything while he was younger. The character was not handled well at all. By the time Daniel Cosgrove assumed the role, I didn't feel as if we had seen enough of him growing up and interacting enough with other characters, so I just didn't have any emotional investment in him.

4 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I knew they were going to find some type of way to make Katie a Hughes in the end when Nancy's funeral became more about Katie than anyone else.

That. INFURIATED. Me.

We didn't see Penny or Don or Ellen or Andy or Frannie return for Nancy's passing, but we had even more Katie rammed down our throats.

4 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I still bothers me that Goutman didn't pull the stick out of his a** and simply bring back Penny and Don for that one episode. I HATED Nancy's funeral episode. It was a disservice to Helen Wagner if you ask me. I did not care to see Katie sulk about being a widow and now losing Nancy. I wanted to see the Hughes grieve over Nancy. It's weird to me b/c I always say that ATWT (besides AW's handling of Doug Watson and Connie Ford's passings) is the one soap that has one of the best dedication episodes to a veteran actor in the genre and that was the death of Don MacLaughlin.  We saw a full-circle moment of life and death as they celebrated Chris' life, the announcement of Kim and Bob's baby, and the celebration of Christina. 

So many legacy characters' deaths on soaps were badly bungled and ended up being insulting to the character and the audience. Nancy Hughes on ATWT and Bert Bauer on TGL were just two of the most egregious examples. The days of respectful tributes to vets like Grandpa Hughes, Chris Hughes and Papa Bauer  ended long ago.

4 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

When it came to the many actors that played Chris, I did enjoy Dylan Bruce as Chris; however, I feel that the material he got was pure trash. 

I just grew to accept Rick/Michael O'Leary for what he provided. I never put much stock in Rick.

Same here, and that's the problem. As the only male Bauer scion on  the canvas, Rick should have been relevant, but he really wasn't.

4 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

This is why I hated that they wrote Michelle off. And as much as I am a MANNY fan, that pairing wrote her into a corner too soon. I could've did without Rick, but the only reason I wanted him to stick around was for them to SORAS Leah, so that she could give him h*ll alongside Blake's kids for his part in Ross' death. 

Unfortunately, the endless Manny stuff boxed Michelle into a corner, and Nancy St. Alban was probably the weakest actress in the role (Rachel Miner being the best). And when the show did SORAS Leah, it was ridiculously fast and jarring, only made worse because the show didn't do much with her anyway.

14 minutes ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

I think Chris Hughes suffered from the same problem that GL's Rick did. Bland casting and bland writing. 

Yes. Sad as it may be admit, Michael O'Leary was not leading-man material, and that only became more apparent as the years went on, and the actor's "mugging" escalated.

Both Christopher Hughes and Rick Bauer needed  strong, dynamic, charismatic actors to make the roles succeed, and that never came to be.

3 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

That's the problem. I never understood how a writer could take the position and not learn the history. Or at least ask someone about the history. Yes, Sheffer got the show out of slump, but as we both agree, he handled many of the vets poorly. It hurts my heart to hear that Helen Wagner had to plead with him to give her more airtime and he dismissed her. That does not sit well with me. I wondering if other writers tried to challenge him or just opted not to, to stay employed. And that is embarrassing that Hogan didn't know Margo was John's daughter. That probably makes sense as to why he wrote Larry Bryggman off the show, which was a criminal act in itself. 

I  do think that Hogan was trying to keep up with GH (I know he was obsessed with GH), which was he successful at, but it alienated so many loyal, long-term fans in the process.

Not to sound too catty, but it all confirms my belief that many award shows are bogus when it comes to handing out trophies in daytime drama categories. Fans know when certain people's work is not award-worthy. The judges? Not so much. I have a feeling that Sheffer and Carlivati won their awards for being "less bad" than the competition.

2 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I do think that at the end when Daniel Cosgrove (my least favorite rendition) occupied the role they were finally starting to put in the role of lead, but I also think that was partly because he was latched to Katie--a pairing I loathed. I just had a hard time with Chris ever wanting to be with Katie after she accused him of stalking her during the Endicott arc. I don't even really remember her being remorseful and giving him a proper apology. 

I think most of us agree: bad casting was a major reason why the character of Chris never blossomed. TPTB never got the right actor for the part, although some were better than others.

The Chris/Katie pairing was ridiculous and I cringed at the very thought of Katie joining the Hughes family.

2 hours ago, adrnyc said:

Why does no one ever complain about the Lowell's grandchildren not popping up? 

We DO!

30 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I think Sheffer's idea of soap was just too cynical and dark to fit veteran characters.

That's a good way to put it. Sheffer's harsh, dark, cynical tone was the polar opposite of the homey, warm, family-based and humane Oakdale we had once known and loved (when the show was number one in the ratings for decades, I might add).

30 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I will credit Goutman with not dumping vets for quick cash. That's better than many managed.

Even I have to give him credit for that. Compared to TGL, I almost want to give Goutman an award for keeping our vets with us until the bitter end.

30 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

If we get into the realm of spent characters, a character like Lily felt more spent to me in ATWT's last decade than Bob or Kim, but then I wasn't writing the show...

I started to see Lily as Oakdale's version of Reva Shayne: overused, spent and in need of retirement.

4 hours ago, adrnyc said:

It's interesting to read people's issues with how the shows "vets" were used during the last 10 years of the show. Having originally watched just those years, I considered Bob, Kim, and Lucinda a huge part of the show when I watched. Bob and Kim's marriage were the stability of the show. Lucinda had tons of storylines with both Lily and Rose as well as Worldwide and her cancer. Oh, and her boyfriend who was actually into Luke.

Lisa as well. Sure she had no romantic storyline but she was around a lot. Nancy was in her 80s in the last decade. There were times (even in the Sheffer era) where all the actress could do was sit in a chair. That's rather limiting to her storyline options. 

I think people also have to consider that, during those years, other "vets" were Lily, Holden, Ben, Jack and Carly who certainly got a lot of screen time.

We also got to see grown up versions of core families.

Hughes: Adam, Christopher, Casey

Munson/Ryan: Paul, Jennifer

Montgomery/Walsh: Bryant, Lucy

I don't know where this idea that the vets weren't used enough comes from.

I appreciate conversations like this, in which posters can hold different beliefs about issues without becoming enraged and flinging ad hominem insults around. We've all seen what social media can be like, LOL.

I respectfully disagree  about the use of the vets in the 2000s.

Back in the day, while Sheffer was writing the show,  another message board would post daily cast appearances, and there were times when Lisa went weeks without being seen.

Around the same time, Sheffer was asked in an interview why we barely saw Kim, whom viewers missed and clamored to see more often. He gave a reassuring reply that, soon, "We are going to be seeing a lot of Kim." But...we didn't.

One thing that grated on my nerves the most is having to endure Helen Wagner's rare cameos on the show being used to prop up Katie.  Chris Goutman referred to her as "America's Princess," but I could not stand her.

I would NEVER refer to folks like Jack and Carly as "vets." I regarded them, like Katie, as over-exposed interlopers.

The problem about the new generation of certain families was that so many of the actors were poorly cast and/or did not stick around for long. It was difficult to care about them one way or the other. IMHO, the absolute WORST was Roger Howarth, such a mistake in the role of Paul.

I do believe the "vet situation" improved under Jean Passanante, as much as I cringe at having to applaud her for anything, LOL!

7 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Yes he was a big TV star but never followed through. Maybe he got a bad rep or walked away from good offers ... Anyway he turned up on GH for a while.

It annoys me to see Maree Cheatham here when she should have been involved with Days in some capacity. Their only original castmember still active and Maree never came back .

All three of The Mod Squad leads seemed to fade away after the series ended, although much later, Peggy Lipton did turn up on Twin Peaks. It surprised me we did not see much of them after TMD left the air. They had been reasonably popular.

And ITA about Maree Cheatham. As far as we can surmise, Marie is the only living offspring of Tom and Alice Horton (and Maree Cheatham is the only surviving original cast member). The character and the actress deserve a place on the canvas.

And once and for all, I want answers as to whether or not Tommy Horton, Jr. is alive or dead.

23 minutes ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I like Sheffer, but he had many flaws. I did not know that Helen Wagner asked him for more appearances and he ignored her. That was a trash move for him to cast her aside. He didn't handle the likes of Kim, Bob, Nancy, and Lisa real well. Honestly, he suffered with the Hughes for the most part. Carly was my favorite, but he overdosed her at times. 

I will grudgingly admit that a writer should have the power to write a show as he sees fit, but only to a point. When you take over a long-running series, you simply cannot cut off its roots and drastically alter its tone and style without severely damaging the program.  If you assumed the reigns of, say, DALLAS, no one in power would allow you to ignore and marginalize the Ewing family. TPTB of the original Star Trek would not permit you to kill off Spock and write out Kirk and Bones. If you accept the job of writing a beloved franchise, its your obligation to keep essential components of it intact.

What i find most offensive about the Sheffer/Wagner interaction is not just that he turned down her request, but that he spoke openly about it in the press. How humiliating for Wagner, a beloved original cast member and lynchpin of the program, to have her participation be undervalued so publicly. Sheffer should have been gracious enough to keep such a private conversation private.

23 minutes ago, NothinButAttitude said:

RE: Paul--When they did a RETCON on Emily's embryo story with Larry, which was gross by the way, they should've cast the younger that played Emily's son as one of Annie & Jeff's quads or a son of Stewart. Again, the history is there. I don't know why any writer wouldn't use it. I feel like it kills them to read up on the show's history, which for me has been fun. 

Agnes Nixon, Pat Falken Smith, Claire Labine, Douglas Marland, and a few other writers were rightfully applauded for studying the history of each soap they took over from other writers, and using the past effectively. I don't think a lot of scribes even bother. Pamela Long at TGL sure didn't know the history. Unless I am misremembering, I believe Ellen Dolan once said that Hogan Sheffer did not know that John Dixon was Margo's father. 

When fans of the soaps know more about them than the people writing and producing them, you know there's a problem.

35 minutes ago, NothinButAttitude said:

No, I didn't think you were commending JP at all! I just felt she was no better than Sheffer. But at the end of the day, it could be all because Goutman didn't want to display the vets.

True, but Goutman was present during both writers' terms, and JP's tenure still featured more screen-time for the vets than Sheffer's did. Helen Wagner once approached Sheffer personally and requested more appearances on the show. In an interview later, he said that although Wagner was the matriarch, he was going to continue writing the series as he saw fit. This suggested to me that HS had at least a certain degree of control over the stories he told and the actors he showcased. And clearly, Sheffer had his favorites. I believe he (or someone at P&G) had an issue against Eileen Fulton, who was basically marginalized to the status of an under-fiver during Sheffer's tenure. 

35 minutes ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I am not stunned to hear that fans didn't take to Penny at all. Even my late grandmother, when she used to go on and on about the show, would talk about how she loved Jeff and Penny and how much of a big deal they were. Some characters are just hard to recast--literally untouchable. 

Penny was such a pivotal, beloved heroine with a staunch fanbase. I knew from the moment Phoebe Dorin appeared that the audience would close ranks and protest. Viewers never accepted another Mary Ryan on Ryan's Hope after Kate Mulgrew left. Even though the first recast, Mary Carney, was good, TPTB gave up on her almost immediately, but then the second recast, Kathleen Tolan, was HORRENDOUS. Replacing Tolan with the better-but-still-tepid Nicolette Goulet failed too. And don't even get me started on the misfires surrounding the "new" Alice Frames on AW. Yikes. Some actors truly cannot be replaced, and most of us know by instinct who they are.

35 minutes ago, NothinButAttitude said:

I guess. But I think once Paul found out the truth of Dan/Liz, that would've provided tons of drama going forward. But I mean it worked out for the show in the long haul. I do think they tried to rectify it in later years by Stewart his son. 

Yes, that was an opening to keep Paul Stewart's legacy and place in the show's history alive. Sadly, Stewart Cushing disappeared from Oakdale like many other members of the Lowell/Stewart family, never to be seen again. That TPTB never mined that clan for new characters to introduce in later years indicated to me the lack of knowledge or interest producers and writers had in ATWT's history.

30 minutes ago, Reverend Ruthledge said:

 

Bill Bauer was one of my favorite GL characters (if not my favorite) and I'm a huge Bill apologist but I didn't so much mind that the killed him off. In fact, I'm not a big fan of his "return from the dead" and wish they would have just left him dead in the plane crash in 1969. His return in 1977 at least gave us Hilary but it was so poorly handled. He was brought back to basically not do anything and just fade away. I don't think main characters should just fade away. I'd much rather have them die. So, a death for Bill would be preferable in my opinion then just not ever mentioning him again. HOWEVER, NOT the way he was killed. For the sake of a very stupid storyline that didn't make sense to begin with. For such a long-lasting, important character to die for the sake of a lame, revisionist, nonsensical storyline featuring people who would only last a couple of years (hello, Annabelle) was just a slap in the face to the character and GL's legacy.

When TPTB initially brought Bill Bauer back from the dead, I was hoping they would use him effectively and mine all the potentially-explosive family drama inherent in the situation. I was so disappointed that he just faded into the woodwork without any fanfare. Being such an historically-significant character with rich interpersonal-relationship possibilities, I kept hoping (dreaming in Technicolor, really) that an intelligent writer would care about the integrity of TGL's past and the Bauer family enough to DO something worthwhile with this.

Alas, we got Pamela Long and Gail Kobe, the annihilation of the Bauers, and an egregious, idiotic storyline that saw Bill end up dead, and the history of TGL's core families trashed.