Xanthe

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

I don’t know if the answer is that simple but think of all of those sketch comedy shows that parody soaps, what’s the first cue that they use? Organ music?

Interestingly, SCTV's The Days of the Week doesn't use organ music. In many respects the parody feels very true to the form and (at least here) doesn't have any obvious jokes beyond the utter brainlessness of Mojo.

16 hours ago, Khan said:

Frankly, I think JER was the only one who thought what he was writing was any good, satire or not, and that no one else who was affiliated with PASSIONS ever had the heart to tell him otherwise.

I didn't watch Passions. Did it make fun of soap tropes and conventions specifically and directly, or was it just that it had silly outlandish supernatural storylines? I would argue that you can combine soap with other genres without necessarily undermining the soap elements.

My radical opinion is that soaps would have been better off if they had been satisfied with capturing and entertaining their own niche audiences rather than trying to mimic what other "more successful" soaps were doing and diluting their own individual brands. Don't chase the GH supervillain ice princess if your show is about a publishing magnate and his artist wife.

17 minutes ago, Khan said:

Perhaps it was one of those situations where people were reluctant to take the HW'ing position?

And/or there was someone they wanted who was unavailable but they counted on to be available soon (and then fell through)?

It's interesting to me that when they did establish a head writer, they promoted Gillian Spencer and added Sam Hall, which makes it seem as if if they were holding out for someone specific they didn't get them. The pairing lasted until March 1986 when Margaret DePriest came in.

1 hour ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Any idea why there was no head writer for such a lengthy period?  Was there a strike?  

There was a 2-week WGA strike in March. Not sure why the head writer role was empty for so much longer.

https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/writers-guild-strikes-hollywood-history-wga/hollywood-writers-go-on-strike-in-dispute-over-payments-for-streaming-services-3/

19 hours ago, j swift said:

It is probably a reflection of the poor writing in general at a later date, but it's confusing upon Evan's return that he only targets Iris for revenge, and Rachel is just collateral damage.

Evan's original motivation in working for Iris was to get revenge on Rachel, but I thought that the idea was he fell in love with Amanda and got to know Rachel and realized that he was mistaken. I'm trying to remember but didn't he take Rachel's part against Gwen at the 25th anniversary party? So by the time he left I thought he and Rachel were all good.

I have no recollection of Evan's return in 1994, but the AWHP makes it sound as if his vendetta was against Carl. And Iris was also against Carl, as was Amanda. I have no idea what his motivation was here.

3 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Interesting.  I had no idea that all occurred with no head writer.   

The introductions of Victoria and Brittany were in the same window, as well as Lesoleil and the Chapin/Love/Hutchins history. 

1 hour ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Wyndham seemed to enjoy playing occasional scenes in which Rachel showed a bit of her old feistiness (or should I say nastiness?).  It must have been boring playing Rachel as a saint for almost 20 years.  

I'm not a fan of amnesia storylines, but if you're gonna do one, do it right.  When Rachel had amnesia around 1985 (and she even forgot she was married to Mac), I think it would have been fun if she reverted completely back to the old insecure antagonistic Rachel for a couple of months.  That would have been a shock to the other characters, especially since very few of them had been around when Rachel was the show's main villainess.  It would have been especially fun to see her interacting with Alice and Ada with her new/old persona.  I remember there was one scene between Alice and Rachel where the writers seemed to toy with this idea, but it was only one scene.  It could have been so much more, had they taken it further.  What if Rachel thought Steve was still alive?  What if she thought Alice was still a nurse, and refused to respect her as a doctor?  What if she goes after Mac just for his money (one of Mac's biggest fears, back in 1974)??  Of course this could only go on for a very limited time -- a couple of months tops.  There was so much material laying right there for the writers to pick up.  Oh, well . . .

You'll never believe this [/s], but Rachel's amnesia occurred during a period of no head writer from March to July 1985. Gary Tomlin was gone by February and the team of Sam Hall and Gillian Spencer took over in August. (According to the AWHP Gillian Spencer had been part of the Feb-Jul writing team though.)

20 minutes ago, j swift said:

Didn't Steve die before Alice adopted Sally?  So, I wonder what the connection to Mac and Rachel was based upon?

Frame, Frame, Frame, Frame, Frame. They were having their cake and eating it too. Steve was not quite dead when Alice got the idea to adopt Sally -- he was in Australia and she discussed it with him -- and she adopted her using the Frame name. And then Sally was included as a Frame, visiting Emma, interacting with Willis and Sharlene, and of course Jamie. And based on the synopses for 1975 it sounds like Rachel might have been going out of her way to be friendly with Sally (and Beatrice) in order to spite Alice.

9 hours ago, BuckyB12 said:

The stables at the Cory estate were established early in Rachel and Mac's marriage, because there was a stablehand named Rocky who was interested in Louise (competing with Brooks). I believe Rocky was the first to realize that Sven was a bad guy (and not just creepy) and then he mysteriously disappeared. I definitely remember the scene where Jamie and Dennis found dead Rocky wrapped in plastic under the floor of the boathouse.

Thank you. Although I remember being aware of Jamie in his young teenage years, I don't have any direct memory of the Rocky storyline.

As @Mona Kane Croft pointed out, the stables were definitely a feature in 1975. Based on the AWHP synopses, stables were part of the description of the Clayton Estate -- and regarding the continuity angle, allegedly it was Victoria Wyndham[!] who ad-libbed the part about how she admired it.

http://www.anotherworldhomepage.com/aw1975d.html

Rachel: (Part of Victoria Wyndham's ad-libbed speech about Rachel's dream mansion) "Mrs. Clayton! And in the spring, I'd get off the bus near the house and sneak thru the woods to the wall of the property so I could look at the gardens. It seemed like there were flowers as far as you could see. And usually at that time of day she'd be there."

No mention of school so in theory she could have been on a city bus -- but the rest of the speech isn't included to confirm.

Another thing I found interesting was that on the day Rocky first appeared (he was mentioned as early as August 27, 1975, but John Braden first appeared on December 9), Rachel was making plans to keep a horse for Sally. I think we have discussed here how close Sally was to the Cory family and this suggests that it didn't come out of thin air with Mary Page Keller.

http://www.anotherworldhomepage.com/aw1975d2.html

15 hours ago, j swift said:

Random thought

It was a missed opportunity that Douglas Carson (husband of Christy aka Patti D'Arbanville), was not related to Grace and Phillip Carson.  It might have been fun to explore that aspect of Vicky's past.

Vicky was pretty busy already at that time -- she got engaged to and married Grant, held prisoner in an ice cave, cheated on Grant with Ryan. And since Victoria had never talked about knowing anyone from the Carson family after her parents died and Bridget was the only one who cared for her, could there be any emotional reason for her to get to know the family or would it have to be financial or to deal with some kind of scandal that would cause a problem for Grant's political career? Christy and Douglas seemed to be specifically designed as a short-term speed bump for Cass and Frankie, but I suppose either Vicky could have been involved in the trial over Douglas' death or another Carson could have come to town because of the trial and whatever storyline with Victoria could have ensued.

There have been quite a few minor surname reuses that were never intended to mean anything. Most just sound like very generic English surnames, although a few might have been meaningful to the writer for some reason as well. In fact in some cases the same names probably showed up all around P&G. For example:

• Victoria's adoptive parents Grace and Philip Carson and Frankie's friend's husband Douglas Carson.
• Felicia's secretary Miss Devon and her long-lost daughter Lorna Devon.
• Scott's girlfriend Patricia Kirkland and Grant and Ryan's mother Justine Kirkland.
• Donna and Michael's foster child Mikey Miller (parents Eve and Toby); and Victoria's Kirkland substitute Sean Patrick Miller (parents Laurie and Patrick); Courtney's abusive ex-boyfriend Andrew Miller.
• Thomasina's social worker Rita Kent and Iris' boyfriend Hank Kent (son Tommy and ex-wife Sheri).
• Sally Madison (who killed Lucas and her brother Rick); Chris Madison and his mother Rita.
• Sylvie Kosloff's sister Myrtle Benson, multiple murderer Nurse Emily Benson, obsessed Dr Taylor Benson.
• Michael Randolph's fiancee Karen Campbell, Nurse Joyce Campbell (who I believe had a deaf son so she bonded with Brittany), and Olivia's physical therapist David Campbell.

2 hours ago, j swift said:

It was indubitably a mistake, but I wonder if the Royal Dunning of it all creates a credible excuse that he illegally placed Victoria with Carsons, and they never officially adopted her? 

But, now that you mention it, is the correct story that the Carson's were wealthy (maybe not as rich as the Loves), because they could afford a nanny.  However, when they died, Vicky went to live with Bridget and that's how she wound up in the same neighborhood as Jake McKinnon?  Because I wonder why Vicky wasn't left the Carson's estate in their will?

I think perhaps the Carsons may have unfortunately gone broke before they died. 

On 9/3/2023 at 12:39 PM, Xanthe said:

And as far as Vicky's past goes, I was watching a scene where Felicia confides in Donna that she is looking for a daughter she had thought died at birth, and Donna commiserates with her and throws in a comment that Victoria was never adopted but was raised by Bridget. The original version of the story was that Bridget was employed by Grace and Philip Carson who adopted Victoria as a baby and then died when she was young so Bridget raised her. Maybe Victoria was too young to remember the Carsons and that's why they never got mentioned but they did exist. 

Since we are discussing continuity -- I noted this while watching episodes from 1989 that had this exchange between Donna and Felicia, and I meant to come back to it because there was a later scene (maybe around Xmas when Vicky had kidnapped Steven and was hiding out?) where Vicky does mention the Carsons. I wonder whether the timing was such that there was a fan response to the first scene so they added the reference with Vicky to fill in the gap.

39 minutes ago, j swift said:

Don't forget Rachel's art studio space

Absolutely. Did Sandy and Blaine live in the mansion or were they in a separate building?

Speaking of continuity, the AWHP has some addresses and phone numbers. The address of the Cory estate appears to vary. I'm not sure whether the phone number for the "Cory studio" is intended to be a dedicated line for Rachel's studio or something else. (KBAY is listed separately.)

Cory cabin Route 23 to westbrooke to Willow Creek Bridge, to Willow Creek Road on Route 4, on Crane Lake (555-9680 [1981])

Cory estate 10 Underhill Terrace, Bay City, IL (near Lakeview Drive) (formerly 4 Bayview Drive, 21 Bayshore Drive [1976], and 57 Bayview Drive [1980]). The carriage house is at 15 Underhill Terrace
Cory studio 555-7923

Before VCRs I think the assumption was often that minor details didn't matter because viewers wouldn't retain fleeting references so it wouldn't be worth the effort to track minutiae.

I haven't come across the Lesoleil visualization where I believe Kathleen saw images of her mother (at this time still deceased and not yet named Mary) in 1985, but I did notice that she had a photo of her mother in a locket in this pre-Christmas episode. It's only a quick glimpse. Obviously it doesn't look like Denise Alexander. Maybe it could be Julie Osburn made up to look older but I don't think so?

18 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

The Cory estate had stables almost immediately after the set was introduced around 1975.

Thanks. I recall Pete Shea and Diana Frame meeting in stables as well, but those must have been on Steve Frame's property in 1981-82.

9 hours ago, ScottyBman said:

I always felt like the Cory Mansion and the Love Estate were outside the city and not something one would walk past on the way to school.  

I am not sure when the Corys first had stables but in 1984 when Catlin as Josh Peterson needed work, both the Cory and Love estates had stables with horses. And in 1986 when Reginald came to town, the Cory stables and the Love stables were somehow conceived of as being close enough together that there was a secret tunnel between them and that Mitch would be able to gain access to the Love stables (which Michael owned at this point) by going through from the Cory side where he was doing some kind of construction work.

The AWHP has some info regarding locations that seem to suggest that the Cory Estate had a lot of features. There is a picture of Rachel walking by the lakeshore in July 1979 which is described as being on the estate. And I believe the location where the Mac/Rachel & Sandy/Blaine double wedding took place was intended to represent the Cory estate -- it had a large swimming pool (the better to push Felicia into) and vast grounds.

I remember when Chris Chapin arrived Nancy spotted him hang gliding. So the Chapin Estate (which had been bought by Lesoleil) was also in the area at that time and probably never mentioned again.

During Lumina the Cory estate also had a secret walled garden that had never been entered in Amanda's lifetime.

I'm sure there are many other features of the estates that may have been mentioned and dropped over time, but many writers definitely treated the Cory Estate as extremely large and unlikely to be in the middle of town.

9 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Interesting.  So a 33 year old had a 19-ish year old son.  Hmmm.   

Probably balanced out by the fact that she had a 57-year-old husband.

There was a weekly nighttime series in 1999-2000, made and set in Toronto, called The City and starring Torri Higginson that I thought of as a soap.

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

The full version of this episode (12/24/86) is up on Eddie Drueding's account. This version does have vintage commercials, so I am posting the link here just for that reason.

 

Thank you! Is Janine Turner in this episode or only discussed? I always blur together Janine as Scott's girlfriend Patricia Kirkland (probably no relation to Justine, ) and Rena Sofer as Sam's girlfriend Joyce Abernathy.

6 hours ago, j swift said:

That's the leap of faith that frequently annoys me on soaps.  A character moves to town, and years later multiple people from their past happen to move to the same small town.  People like Sandy and Victoria makes sense because they came knowing that their parent lived in Bay City.  But, Lucas happened to share a past with Felicia on the East Coast (I assume they grew up in the mid-Atlantic region) and Sharlene on the west coast (I assume they met when she was a sex worker in San Francisco). And then, by chance, ran into both in a small town in the Midwest?  That strains credulity, but it is a constant issue for legacy character written by successive writers, who suddenly exist as if they grew up in the soap town despite long term viewers knowing that they moved there as an adult.

Also in the category of "small world": the reveal that Michael Hudson, who had also allegedly known Rachel when he was a child, had had a serious love affair with Iris when they knew each other in Europe. 

8 hours ago, j swift said:

no, but he did appear out of thin air, and I don't recall that there was ever much focus on Jake's father

Thin air is where a lot of characters appear from, especially love children but also nephews (Neal and Adam) or former boyfriends (Sid "Sharkey" Sugarman). I'm probably just mad because I disliked Brittany and early John so much and what they have in common is they were introduced as dead and then suddenly turned out to be alive. If I had liked those storylines better I probably wouldn't be acting as if there was a correlation that makes that plot device bad.

34 minutes ago, j swift said:

I don't know if Kevin Anderson fits that brief

Was Jake's brother presumed dead? I thought he just didn't know that his father had another son until Kevin told him. I was categorizing him as a love child from the past, like Sandy, Paulina, or Nick.

Maybe I should have included Lorna though, depending on how long Felicia talked about her dead baby before Lucas revealed she had survived. If it was all in one conversation though I would say she is definitely just a love child from the past.

2 hours ago, denzo30 said:

New characters introduced while past characters almost never mentioned again.

You need a balance of core families and new characters and AW had periods with a lot of HW turnover where it erred on the side of too many new characters. In terms of inbreeding, Alli's family tree was more complicated than most. Hardly any of the babies born in Bay City were SORASed to adulthood, and most if not all (Nancy, Amanda, Matthew, Maggie, Alli?) were related to Mac and/or Rachel. The McKinnons bred no new children until post-cancellation rewarded Jake with twins with Vicky. And Victoria was the only Love to procreate although her children would also be related to Gregory Hudson who would be a first cousin once removed of Steven through both his Frame side and his Hudson side.

The question of new characters reminded me of my least favourite mechanism for introducing new characters: the dead fakeout. A character who has never been seen alive in Bay City, and has either never been mentioned until recently or was discussed only as the long-dead parent of an existing character suddenly turns out to be alive.  

Reginald, Mary, and Justine were the parental variety.

Brittany, Edward Gérard, and John were the out of thin air variety.

All but Justine were created between 1985 and 1987. Half of them were during Margaret Depriest's tenure as HW. Only John lasted longer than a couple of years. 

22 hours ago, j swift said:

And Mitch coercing Rachel to have sex in order to save Mac in St. Croix was only dealt with by the pre-SORASed Matthew, and then never discussed by teen Matt aka Captain Cool.

But, I could be wrong and someone will correct me if I am...

I believe you are mistaken about which Matt knew what when. Daniel Dale's Matt was a little bit SORASed (from a little kid to about 14/15) in 1986 and got to know ex-con Mitch even though both Mac and Rachel were a bit difficult about it, but I don't think this Matthew ever knew about the way he was conceived.

15 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Don't forget the issue between Matt and Mitch after Matt Crane assumed the role.  This was while Harding Lemay was head writer in 1988. Some of the Frames were back in town, and they blamed Rachel for Janice's death in 1979.  Matt already knew that Mitch was his father, but he didn't know the circumstances or that Mitch had conspired with Janice to poison Mac before Janice's drowning.  Some how Matt convinced Liz Matthews to tell him the entire story, which surprised and angered him.  When Rachel and Mac found out, they both completely disowned Liz, and Liz was estranged from the Cory family for a few months.

Liz had been away (probably since Sally's death, disposing of Kevin Thatcher and never mentioning him again) since before Matthew was aged up to Daniel Dale and then suddenly returned for Thanksgiving 1987. She was the one who looked in Sam's personnel file and revealed to Mac that Mitch was Sam's emergency contact right before Amanda found out she was pregnant. Mac was upset that Sam was related to Mitch and that Rachel had known. Daniel Dale stayed on until New Year's but I don't think Liz told him any of the distressing details of St Croix etc etc.

Matt Crane was a little bit older when he arrived in March 1988. The AWHP synopses for 1988 seem to have the startling revelations from Liz on October 6, 1988. Liz was spouting off about how terrible Jason was (causing trouble for both Mac and Nicole) and Frames in general in Matthew's presence, and just went too far listing all of the Frame crimes she could think of, including Janice. Matthew ran to Rachel and got her version of events, which he did not like at all even though she assured him that Mitch had ultimately helped prevent Janice from killing Mac.

7 hours ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Wasn't the Frame Farm in Bay City introduced during the strike, and written by scab writers?  That might explain the mistake in continuity.  

The references to Emma's farm were too early to be scab writers. It seems to have come up at Christmas 1987 when Margaret Depriest was still headwriter.

Jamie and Lisa report that they went for a drive and noticed that the farm where Emma used to live is up for sale (about 5 minutes in):

Between Xmas and New Year's Rachel, Jamie and Lisa visit the farm and discuss Rachel's wish to bid on it so Jamie can have it. Jason has also come to town and announced his intention to bid on it.

I don't recall watching any of the dramatic miniseries, classy or trashy. But I did watch Fresno, the miniseries parody of nighttime soaps, starring Carol Burnett and Gregory Harrison.