Mona Kane Croft

It's interesting that John Randolph's hair got less and less gray, as the years went by.  

On 8/2/2020 at 3:02 AM, Paul Raven said:

Based on what occurred on AW and soaps in general in the 80's/90's I could see Virginia Dwyer being seen occasionally as Alice's mother, without much recognition that she was once the lead matriach.

Steve/Alice would break up several times as Mac/Rachel did.I'm sure the writers would have had Rachel get involved with Steve again and would have gone further with Mac and Alice involved (possibly married),

That would mean that Rachel/Alice were always at loggerheads . 

Iris staying on might have meant a greater role for Dennis. Cecile could be involved . Jamie v Dennis could create conflict.

With Iris around maybe Felicia and Donna may not have been introduced?

Sally may have not been killed off but I can still see it happening as Alice becomes more isolated . Maybe Steve would have along lost child-that was often a go to for long established characters.

Or kill off Russ so his previously unknown child could turn up to be mothered by Alice.

A lot of possibilities...

I've wondered if perhaps the relationship between Alice and Rachel would have evolved into something similar to that of Vicky and Dorian on OLTL, but perhaps a bit more subdued, because neither were as volatile as Dorian.  They both could have been in their own corners of the show, having their own storylines, but at least some sparks would fly whenever they happened to be in the same scene.

I also would have liked Steve and Alice to evolve in to something similar to Nikki and Victor on Y&R.  Many break-ups and reunions over the years, but still the endgame was for them to be together.   

And if all those major cast members had stayed with the show, we probably would never have seen Miranda Bishop and her clan, the Love family, the McKinnons, Cass, Felicia, and their surrounding characters.   And I certainly hope the writers would have been smart enough to finally give Russ Matthews a stable marriage and four or five children, so Russ and his wife could inherit the patriarch/matriarch roles from Russ's parents, as Bob and Kim Hughes did on ATWT.  And lots of Matthews spawn who actually retain the last-name Matthews to populate the show into the future.  

Anyone care to speculate?  If George Reinholt, Jacquie Courtney, Berverlee McKenzie, and Virgina Dwyer had stayed on AW until it was cancelled in 1999, in what major ways would the show have evolved differently than it did?  Was there room on the show's canvas for both a strong Matthews family AND a strong Cory family?  

How would Rachel and Alice's relationship have evolved?  Would they have remained enemies?  Become close friends?  Or something in-between?   And what type of relationship would have developed between the show's two millionaire businessmen -- Mac and Steve?   And with those four actors remaining in their roles, which later characters would never have been brought onto the show?  What other differences would you have expected?   

7 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Lemay did like mother/child stories

Emma/Molly

Sylvie/Iris

Loueen/Gwen

Theresa/Carol etc

 

Liz/Susan

Mary/Alice

Ada/Rachel

Pat/Marianne

Yes, Lemay loved intergenerational relationships with a bit of conflict.  

8 hours ago, watson71 said:

 

Caroline was introduced shortly after Harding Lemay returned as headwriter in 1988.  She was involved with Evan Frame and was involved with Sam Fowler's art career.  I suspect that Lemay probably had plans for her, but they were probably scrapped when Donna Swajeski took over as headwriter.

I think you are correct about Lemay having plans for the character. In one episode, Carolyn takes a phone call from her mother in Australia.  You could tell by the conversation, she had a bad relationship with her mother, and it was a hint of things to come (I think).  But her mother was never mentioned again, and nothing ever developed.  

20 minutes ago, Vee said:

I just think David Canary is a fundamentally different type than a George Reinholt. I don't get it. But I didn't see Canary's days in TV westerns; maybe he could do it. The only person who could've done it cold was David Selby, but he was still big in primetime in the 80s.

Yes, he is.  But he wasn't playing himself.  He was playing Steve, and I'm sure he could have played Steve well, had he known more about the character, and had some direction -- as I said.  Just my opinion.    

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

That's why the revisited Steve and Alice story bombed. (To be fair, even though the writing was weak, David Canary was a fine actor, and had he been paired with Jacquie Courtney, there might have been some sparks there. But with bad writing, a "new" Steve, a tepid Alice, and careless misuse of history, it was all doomed to fail.)

Good points.  Everyone blames the failure on the casting of Steve and Alice.  But I firmly believe it was the writing that killed their returns.  And to a lesser degree, the directing.  No one will ever convince me that David Canary wasn't capable of playing Steve Frame.  But Canary obviously knew nothing about the character, his history, or his personality.  Canary played Steve as loud and jolly, when Steve had always been quiet and sullen,. And because he didn't understand Steve's history, Canary played the role with absolutely no subtext -- which had been George Reinholt's gift.  With a little direction, Canary could have played Steve much more believably.  I also believe Linda Borgeson was acceptable as Alice.  She was no Jacquie Courtney, but had the writing been better, and Canary's Steve been more convincing, Borgeson could have been successful.  At least she could cry convincingly, which Susan Harney could not do.    

33 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Completely off topic from what everyone is discussing but, I finally figured out why Tangie didn't really fit on the canvas.  Marcy Walker, I think, tried her best with what she was given and it wasn't completely the writing. The role would have been better if cast by an actress who had not been so huge on another soap- either a relative newcomer, ideally an actress who previously had played a minor character(s) on a soap(s). 

Walker had been something of a phenom on SB, part of the show's supercouple, probably a challenge to integrate into something of a lesser role on a more ensemble-oriented, especially when the character came on as a bit of an appendage to a popular character (Josh).  Perhaps if the character had entered the canvas on her own, in some way, things might have gone differently.

 

Another idea, and this might seem controversial-- I do think Barbara Crampton and Vincent Irizarry had some chemistry...she just wasn't Mindy. She also had good chemistry with most of the Lewises (except for the weird/awkward energy her Mindy had with "Uncle Josh", who Crampton never referred to as Uncle Josh, the way Tesreau had in the past).  Crampton wasn't the worst Mindy but I was always keenly aware that her portrayal was far away from that of Tesreau and Simms.

In my opinion, an actress like Walker should have been cast in a legacy role.  Perhaps Mindy (as you mentioned), or maybe Hope Bauer (not sure if she was old enough).  Tangie just seemed like a nobody role.  It was silly to cast Walker in such a minor role, even though I'm sure GL payed her big-bucks.  What a waste.

2 hours ago, FrenchFan said:

It sounds reliable according to AWHP. Quinn first appeared in July 1981 and Linda last appeared in November of that year.

It would be interesting to know if Linda had any scenes with the recently returned Alice Frame in 1981, since they had been so close in the 1970s.  But the writers were different, and seemed to know little about Alice and Steve's real history.  They made-up a lot of history that never really happened on the show, and they ignored a lot of history that did happen on screen.  No research and little continuity, even though only a few years had passed.   

43 minutes ago, FrenchFan said:

 

She left in September 1981. She was clearly a very secondary character much like her half-sister Peggy before. She was brought when Micki Grant left I think. They barely shared screen time. Has Linda even had any part in a storyline?

Harding Lemay began to create a family for Peggy, just shortly before Micki Grant left the show.  Peggy's mother. Gloria and sister, Linda, plus Linda's boyfriend Zach Richards joined the show.  Was Grant's exit unexpected? Seems strange to create a family for a character on the way out.  Soon after Grant left, Gloria stopped appearing.  Zach continued to appear for a few years, but Linda was by far the longest running member of the family.  Linda had only one minimal storyline of her own early in her time at the show, when she started dating Zach, who had been recently released from prison and her mother didn't approve.  After that, Linda appeared mostly as a nurse at the hospital and a close confident of Alice Frame.  Supposedly Linda was still appearing occasionally when Quinn Harding joined the cast, but the two had no scenes together.  I am not sure that bit of information is correct.  Perhaps there is a way to check the dates to confirm.  

4 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

 

Because I am so totally hopeless with anything to do with technology, I have foolishly gone far too long without transferring all my ancient videotapes and audiotapes to modern formats. Fortunately, by my sending stuff to Eddie Drueding and @billbauer, those fine gentlemen have done the "heavy lifting" and been good enough to share many of my vintage soap episodes on-line with other fans. A huge chunk of the credit goes to them.

 

And yes: contrary to what a petulant Harding Lemay contended, Jacqueline Courtney was great on AW.

 

 

It's my pleasure, although the majority of the credit must go to Eddie Drueding, who agreed to digitize my tape and then share it on his excellent AW page! 

Yes, and Virginia Dwyer was also great as the show's matriarch, Mary Matthews.  Lemay minimized her role and tried to turn Mary into a meddling shrew, before finally killing her off.  Although Lemay was a good writer, he did not understand soap opera genre well enough to recognize the importance of the matriarch to a soap opera's core-family.   If Lemay wanted to fire an actor for bad acting, he should have fired Hugh Marlowe (Jim Matthews), and replaced him with a better actor.  Marlowe stuttered and stammered, huffed and puffed through his dialogue every time he was on screen.  He phoned-in every performance, and probably didn't look at the script until five-minutes before the camera rolled.   Neither Courtney nor Dwyer deserved to be fired.   

58 minutes ago, Manny said:

I am watching now March 20 1979. Elizabeth Spaulding just won custody of Philip and Alan is furious. The moment when Alan gets out of judge's chambers and goes over to Mike, pushing Jackie out of his way in the process.. wow, show some real disrespect and selfishness on Alan's part. And then when Alan was telling Philip how Mike won the case with lies... wow, Alan was really deceitful. But amazing story and great acting by Chris Bernau.

And then the fight scene between Jackie and Alan.. wow.. long uninterrupted scene of the two of the arguing and Jackie confronting Alan with his bad ways. Loved it. 

 

I also enjoyed the dynamic between Jackie and Elizabeth. Were they friends? Or just respected each other for Philip's sake?

Why does Jackie have the last name Marler?  Was she Justin's ex-wife, or his sister?   

1 hour ago, Brolden said:

 

You're confusing the Full Episode List with the regular ATWT thread

You are right.  Thank you.

4 hours ago, prefab1 said:

Long-time lurker, first-time poster here. I just wanted to point out that GL actually did bring Mike (and Don Stewart) back very briefly in 1997, for the 60th anniversary. You can see him around the middle of this clip, interacting with Rick, Meta, Ross, and Blake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBLINo71kLA

Didn't Don Stewart go off script and give some rambling speech at the party?  And then they had to severely edit his appearance?  I remember hearing this back in '97.  Does anyone else remember anything about him doing something off-the-wall that had to be edited out?   

What happened to everyone else's ATWT posts between June 15 and today?   Nearly a month of posts have disappeared.   

1 hour ago, All My Shadows said:

I’ve been watching 1979, and it’s definitely the same house but with some changes. It seems like there was “more” beyond the staircase in the earlier episode, and there’s a narrow window to the left of the front door that isn’t there later, but it’s the same basic set.

 

1973

 

1979

 

 

Thanks for the comparison.  I feel sure you are correct.  But isn't this the same basic layout as the Bauer's original TV living room from the earliest available episodes?  That set was much simpler (smaller fireplace, etc.), but essentially the same major set pieces.  

24 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

So it sounds like 1983 was the 1st year of the Bauer barbeque (1984 had a fun episode devoted to it)...so it sounds like Long jump started it as a tradition. 

 

And the Hughes 4th of July was kind of boring... nice, but not as memorable 

Funny, I feel just the opposite.  To me, the Hughes 4th of July was more a tradition and it was believable and memorable.  And the Bauer Barbecue was just used to promote whatever plot was brewing at the time, and the goings-on were unlikely and often over the top.  Not to mention there seemed to be fewer and fewer Bauers to host it every year.   But this is all just my opinion. It's cool to disagree. 

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

Bauer barbeque was a tradition on the show.  I think it goes back to the 1960s, but I don't think it became a huge 2 to 3 episode event till at least the 80s...right?

As far as I know, the Bauer Barbecue didn't become a tradition until the early 1980s.  If you're remembering 4th of July celebrations from the 1960s, it was probably the annual Hughes 4th of July picnic, which was held each year from the 1960s until the early-80s, when Chris and Nancy left the show. Then the Hughes picnic was revived in 1985-86, when Doug Marland was head-writer at ATWT.  It continued until Marland's death in 1993, and then stopped occurring.    The Hughe's 4th of July picnic always included raising the flag, and the Hughes patriarch (Pa Hughes, Chris Hughes, or later Bob Hughes) saying a few words about patriotism and our nation's founding.   It was a wonderful soap opera tradition that should have continued until ATWT left the airwaves.    

3 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

In regards to Noelle Beck, do you guys think the writing didn't help people accept her as Lily?  She had a more low key and subdued way of playing Lily than Martha/Heather did..reminded me more of the 1st Lily's take in some ways.

 

While Martha and Heather played Lily as annoyed and frustrated with Lucinda..and both would lash out at her...Noelle's Lily seemed more exhausted and would retreat instead of fight with Lucinda.  And I'm glad Lily and Holden didn't reunite at the end..too toxic and limited both characters.

 

Also, I do recall Martha said she did watch some of Heather's run as Lily..and said she was good, marveling at all the acting opportunities she was given when playing Lily (miscarriage, Holden's disappearance, being stalked briefly in 1990, finding out about Aaron and Lucinda knowing where Holden was the whole time, etc) and wishing she could have played them.  I do recall Heather played Lily's miscarriage wonderfully..and I don't think Martha would have been as effective..imho

When Nicole Beck was in the role, Lily was used as a supporting character, not a romantic lead, as she had been with Martha and Heather.  So it's rather hard to compare Nicole's Lily to the other two.  I believe Nicole was a good casting choice, and could have handled anything thrown her way, had the writing for Lily livened-up.   But it was a shame Martha was driven away, after so many years playing Lily.   

2 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

 

Yes, the infamous Lumina Ball.

 

I've always wondered what the hell the writers had in mind for the long story payoff of this arc. Just utter stupidity that not mesh well with this show. I do have to say that the Lumina set and the costumes are extravagant.

 

Furthermore, this was around the time too where Jake would become unbearable and take a moral high ground when it came to Marley losing her mind. It didn't sit well with me knowing he raped her years before and was shaking his finger at her the next second. 

Near the beginning of the Lumina story, they gave a back-story that made it plausible, up to that point.  But a few weeks later, all that original back-story went out the window, and the plot just got more and more over-the-top and unbelievable.  If I'm not mistaken, Luminia was originally said to have been a cult (or something similar), and the characters were very cautious about participating in the Lumina Ball.   But then that all seemed to have been dropped, in favor of reincarnation and a secret area of the Cory garden that not even Rachel was aware of.   Is it possible the writers changed in the middle of the plot?   Something certainly did -- because it went from being a weird (but believable) storyline, to a supernatural floundering mess, seemingly over-night.    

23 minutes ago, OzFrog said:

So the other night I stumbled across a Tumblr full of SOD synopses for SFT, dating back to at least the 70s. And I promptly fell down a massive rabbit hole reading them all. If any of you are interested, they’re here: https://classicsodsft.tumblr.com/

 

From this, I have a few questions:

 

• I know Suzi was Eunice’s daughter, and John Wyatt was her main father figure. But was he actually her biological father?
• Was Suzi born onscreen?
• How long was Lewis Arlt on SFT for as David?
• I know John James played Tom Bergman in the late 70s, but did he reprise the role when Tom returned in the early 80s?

Cheers in advance!

I can't answer all your questions, but:

-- Suzy's bio-father was Doug Martin.  So Suzy and Scott Phillips were half-siblings.  Also interesting -- because of the deaths of Doug and eventually Eunice, Suzy was actually raised by two people (John and Stephanie) who were not biologically related to her.  

-- John James did not return to the role of Tom Bergman.  If I'm not mistaken, Tom was played by Robert Lupone, when the character returned.  

1 hour ago, RavenWhitney said:

Sam Ratcliffe was gay and died of Aids. Millee was involved with Tom King for some years.

But isn't Tom King gay?  I think he is, but maybe I'm wrong.   

3 hours ago, BetterForgotten said:

I'm sure Carla would have been serviceable, but Betty Rea knew what she was doing when she fought for Zimmer, I guess. 

 

It's sad that we don't have a casting director in daytime with Ms. Rea's intuition and talent anymore. 

True, I suppose.  But maybe GL would not have become The Reva Show, had Borelli been cast.   

On 6/14/2020 at 9:57 PM, amybrickwallace said:

Kim said in her book that Reva as originally conceived was Southern with long, red hair. I don't know who from the TX cast fit that description.

My understanding of the role has always been that Pam Long based Reva on Reena Bellman from Texas (which seems strange, because Reena was born wealthy, and had none of Reva's backstory or motivation), and that she wanted Carla Borelli for the role on GL.  Not sure where Kim got the idea Pam wanted a red-head.  

Alan doesn't like to discuss controversy.  But how can you have an interesting conversation with soap opera writers without discussing controversy?  At least half of a soap opera writer's life is consumed dealing with network interference, sponsor demands, difficult executive producers, and general frustration.  Writers are seldom allowed to write what they really want to write.  Is he going to forbid them from discussing any of that?