lilyredd

26 minutes ago, amybrickwallace said:

Fair enough. When did the "divorce" happen?

It was never a legal adoption. It was part of the reason Martin did not want the truth of the adoption coming out and his suicide. The disaffirmation was just a demonstrative way for Marland to sever the ties Lily had with Lucinda. To me it is just one of those technicalities writers ignore because it gets in the way of doing something they want like Lily divorcing Lucinda. The disaffirmation was in May of ‘93. Hubbard was phenomenal in those scenes and later with Mary Kay Adams as her sister Neal. 
 

Lily and the Snyders had every reason to never speak to nor forgive Lucinda for actions. I just wanted Lucinda to be the one to disown Lily, lol. 

11 minutes ago, Vee said:

Which Marland retconned, right? Wasn't it that originally Lucinda blamed Whit for her husband's death, but it was a smokescreen for the Lily secret?

Yup. Lucinda came to town to avenge Martin’s suicide which was blamed on Whit bankrupting his company. Marland changed it to he killed himself because of the fact Lily was illegally adopted. 

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

On a previous post, I already gave my ideas on Lucinda (and John, by extension). My basic premise is the idea that there should be a final "ending" was not ideal. I compared the finale episodes for AMC and ATWT and gave my thoughts on why AMC, despite some clumsy execution provided a better ending than ATWT and why this gave AMC some viability and a chance for at least one reboot, something that is unlikely to ever happen for ATWT. In short, AMC left their characters viable, while ATWT completely put their characters out to pasture.

Never "sunset" your characters, unless someone dies in the end. Even Thelma and Louise left a little room for "What If?" in the end, despite the fact that intellectually, we all knew they went over that cliff. (As preposterous as it was, that ending actually inspired talk of sequels).

To be as brief and as descriptive as I can, If I had a chance to write storyline arcs to the finale for Barbara, for example, I would give her options, I wouldn't just shove her with Henry as a "happily ever after". I would spoil her for choice. At least a year before the finale, I would have Barbara relaunch BRO (or whatever they wanted to call it). Have Barbara be a driven designer having her own design house. We don't have to see runway but see her in the process of making sketches, discussing fabric, cut and debuting collections in Milan, London, etc. (Paul can make the trips abroad, returning with rave reviews), have there be so much interest that she is drawing notice from other fashion houses to do collaborations have Eric Forrester be interested in her (perhaps for more reasons than professional). He makes an offer to Barbara which is tempting but Barbara decides that this is not the right time in her life for such a monumental change that could uproot her very stable life, Eric, convinced they will work together, urges her to give it more thought. As Barbara and Henry grow closer and eventually get engaged with plans to marry soon,  a surprise return from Barbara's past comes back into her life and unwittingly crashes her big engagement party, right in the middle of Bob Hughes's toast, which causes Barbara to reconsider whether her life is as steady, stable and as sure as she thought. Eric, hearing about what happened at the engagement party suggests that she come to L.A. for awhile, give herself time to process the recent upheaval and work with him on that collaborative collection with FC, married or not, he believes they would make a dynamic team). Of course, there would be conversations with Henry, who stands by her and hopes that this is a momentary obstacle to their impending nuptials (although Henry doesn't see divulge that Vienna Hyatt has contacted him, offering her support to him and more). This surprise "guest" from Barbara's past also also offers Barbara a window into a past, before she acquired all the "baggage" she now has, as this person remembers her from a time when she was free from scandal and judgement.

I have my ideas on how I would wrap on that, if I ever have the time to sit down and write that, I just might put it in writing. 

Lucinda, I wrote some of that piece but I would definitely write her as looking to groom a successor, her own "wunderkind" to run Worldwide, while, of course, still very much holding onto the reigns at the company. The best option would have been Bryant, which she always envisioned taking over from the day he was born (there are actual clips of her saying this), and this would create good conflict with Bryant's parents. The problem of TIIC killing off Bryant could have been solved in true soap fashion, and I have already posted what I would write (anybody remember this?) as a solution. But yeah, I would never "sunset" these characters. Keep them viable, give them options because one never knows. 

Thanks for answering!

41 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

I minded, namely because Lucinda and Barbara were once feminist icons (daytime, which was not unproblematic, but still) and they ended on such a conventional note-unfortunate, imo. Had they been the characters they ended up being when I first saw them as a little girl, I would never have continued watching that show, tbh. So yeah, as a woman, who grew up watching these "uncommon women" (to quote late playwright Wendy Wasserstein) as a little girl who grew to write drama, the idea of it was disappointing. Thankfully, I waited a year before watching the final episodes on YT, so I wasn't as invested in the series as I would have been when I was a faithful viewer.

I was ok with their ending simply because I wanted happy endings for characters I liked and I do not know nor trust what the show would have done otherwise. I didn’t love it but…  Having said that,  no way Lucinda surrenders her company to anyone - daughter or not.

If you were given a blank sheet and told write Lucinda and Barbara for the finale, what would you have done?

15 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I didn't mind the endings for Lucinda and Barbara, partly because I just assumed they would still have adventures and lives, partly because I was happy they got  stories in their last year. I really wasn't that fond of Bob and Kim moving, although if they had brought people back to wish them well, instead of just ending on a dollar store globe, I would have been more invested.

I share this view. While I didn’t love their partners, I am so glad Lucinda and Barbara got their happy endings. 

I have many for ATWT- Craig and Lucinda should have been lovers for more than one night. They should have had a mutual sexual obsession. Skip the Iva relationship. 

Lucinda should not have betrayed Barbara- their friendship was fun and needed by both characters.

Iva would have been more interesting if she had not devolved into a saintly paragon of virtue. This was a woman who was the adopted daughter of a poor fertile farm family sent away because the Snyders could not afford all their kids, gets raped, runs away, gives the kid up, pornography etc. I would have liked her with the spunk she showed up with in ‘85. Let her be just as messy as Lucinda. She knew Lily preferred her and wanted her to be her mom - so play it up - take back what is “yours.” Do not accept Rod/Josh the rapist or his marriage to your sister or your rape child calling the rapist dad. 
 

Along those same line, while Iva loved Lily but she should also be repulsed by this child of her violent rape. I would like to have seen her not always put Lily first and their relationship to be just as rocky as it was with Lucinda. 
 

Emma was a terrible mother. 

Iva should have fought to keep Aaron and won. 

I think John was the new chief of staff- Susan made a remark about it in the finale. 

The fact that the Supreme Court may well essentially overturn Roe this evening makes me so, so angry. 

49 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

Wow.

 

Got a little teary on this one. Amazing singer/songwriter. “One blade shy of a sharp edge” is a particular favorite. 

1 hour ago, Brolden said:

I was watching a random '98 episode yesterday, where Lisa and John are growing close again after his marriage to Barbara. This would of course soon be cut short by his marriage to Carly, which pretty much ended before it began.

I was thinking it was a pity the show didn't allow John and Lisa to get back together, with everything that transpired between them behind them, and see where it would go. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad John ended up with Lucinda in the finale, but I think a renewed John/Lisa pairing in the late 90s could have given both of there characters an impulse.

Now I love me some enemy to lover tropes, however I never saw a romantic spark or chemistry with these two characters. Some characters never need to hook up but if kept Lucinda free of Dixon, I would have taken it (yes, I have very unpopular opinions on certain things).

I do love the idea of Lisa online dating.

I did not appreciate Lisa when I watched consistently as I saw her as a ditzy lady and that type of character does not interest me. What I did appreciate about her is when she was allowed to be “bitchy” whether it was with John or any other perceived enemy. I think the mistake the show made was not keeping her as a villain.
 

As to the end of the show, Lisa was the marrying type and so when Stuart Damon was available I wish they had brought him aboard as a new conquest for Lisa instead of what appeared to be poor man’s General Hospital reunion. 

4 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

The main problem is there was no proper plan for Joey after the fling ended. It was such a captivating story, and then he was just in limbo, made worse by the arrival of Kelly, played by an actress who tanked every  single pairing she ever had on OLTL.And even though Joey and Dorian, realistically, never would have worked long-term, him still being in her orbit yet being with a dead fish relation of hers felt like a slap in the face - to her and to fans of the pairing.

Very true.

1 hour ago, j swift said:

As much as I enjoyed the novelty of Dorian and Joey (Joe), I don't feel like either actor sold me on the idea that relationship was viable. 

Dorian and Joe were delicious fun and a great source of revenge for Dorian. Loved that story and found that era of OLTL compulsively entertaining. I don’t think there was any plan for them to be some long term relationship. I think the show, actors, writers saw this couple for what it was - a coming of age lusty relationship for Joey and revenge and fun for Dorian (even though she developed feelings for him, he was no Herb or Mel).

On 7/26/2021 at 12:31 PM, I Am A Swede said:

I sure do.  

Benny was always a big fan of folk music, and after ABBA he collaborated with a group of Swedish folk musicians called Orsa Spelmän. They enjoyed it so much that they decided to start a band, which became Benny Anderssons Orkester. They invited other musicians, including Helen Sjöholm, the star of Benny's and Björn's musical "Kristina från Duvemåla" and she became their lead singer. Later Tommy Körberg, another big musical star here, joined as well. (He originated the role of Anatoly in "Chess" in London)

The band started in 2001 and immediately became very popular in Sweden. Most of the musicians have other jobs, many in theatrical orchestras in Stockholm, and BAO (as it's called) is a sideproject for them. They usually come together during the summer and go on tour and attract huge crowds.

So far they've released 10 albums and all but one have reached the top 5 in the Swedish charts, the one who missed peaked at #6. They've also had five #1s on the radio chart Svensktoppen, and one of their songs, "Du är min man" stayed on the chart for 278 weeks and spent 65 of those at #1.

This is probably the most ABBA-like of the songs Benny and Björn (who writes the lyrics, but is otherwise not a member of the band) have written for BAO.

And here with English lyrics.

 

Thank you so much. Loved it. Tommy Körberg is amazing and now I must find all his music. New music discovered is the best. It is amazing how much ABBA and especially the work of Ulvaeus and Andersson have been the soundtrack of my life. 
 

Ah, Chess- had the cassette of the concept album and played it incessantly.  There is a concert on YouTube  from 1989 performed in Sweden with Körberg, Murray Head, Sissel Kyrkjebo, and Judy Kuhn that is phenomenal.  

I think both Holden and Lily would have benefited from different partners when Rattray was in the role. I mean they made the girl that whined that her mom read financial magazines a businesswoman. Really, to me, it was changing Lily into a businesswoman that doomed the actress as much as her lack of chemistry with her male leads. I liked Rattray as an actress but she couldn’t overcome my dislike of the character she portrayed. Also, Holden was more interesting to me when he first arrived but in true Marland style he toned him down. I mean he went to work on the farm because his ambition was “bad.” It wasn’t Lily that should have been more Lucinda-like it was Holden. 
 

I love that story about Fulton and the fan, true or not. I think Joan Collins mentioned being confronted by fans about her character. That is so funny to me as I adore the bad girls on these shows and cannot imagine yelling at an actress for her performance. Without Alexis, Lisa, Lucinda, etc. I would have never invested in their shows. 
 

5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I think they said that Dee assumed John was Brad (was it Brad?) and as John had no idea that she did not know it was him, it was consensual. My question is who the hell wants to watch this type of story in the first place - I know it was a leadup to Who Shot John? and that had a lot of good dramatic moments, but it's just very  gross.

Lucinda and Meg and Dusty tended to be the people who called Lily out. I think part of the reason Lily seemed snotty was because Martha played the role in a bratty manner, with less of the layers that Marland's previous Lily types, like Genie Francis and Kristen Vigard, brought to their roles. 

I loved Lucinda, but I do think that she was often a distant and easily distracted mother figure to Lily when Lily was growing up. Yes, she had a beautiful home, a good education, and servants, which she probably should have not taken for granted as much, but she also had a mother who was wildly out of control, flinging herself into bitter corporate and personal rivalries and bedhopping with the wrong man time and time again. Lucinda was a mess, and no matter how much you love your child, that is going to have an effect. 

It's interesting what you mention about Andy. I feel like this was explored somewhat in his alcoholism story - we saw how much Kim's busy career and John being John meant he was lonelier and more prone to struggle - but I do think there was more emphasis on "tough love" for Andy than there was for Lily and more emphasis on the consequences of Andy's selfishness and insecurity - not just with nearly killing Lien, but also when his obsession with Julie helped refuel Courtney's eating disorder. I suppose it's because viewers expected to see certain behaviors as typical of young ingenues, but not young men, especially Marland-era ingenues, who were often coddled to no end. 

I will say that as tired I sometimes got of Lily turning up her nose at Lucinda, they did manage to show she loved her. I appreciated this more after seeing the nasty, mean-spirited way failing soaps like GH wrote Emily Quartermaine treating Alan and Monica, who would have been better off not even bothering to adopt her.

Your point is well-taken. I have a blind spot when it comes to characters or people I do not like. I tend to concentrate on every piece of negative I find about that character so I apologize for harping too often on Lily. It does not help that every episode that pops up on YouTube is one where she is just ridiculous. Also, I think there was a point where Marland was going to try to claim Lucinda was abusive because there were episodes where they had Lily acting afraid of her mother which I thought was nonsense. I found Lucinda fabulous so there is another blind spot.

That rape story with John sounds awful and demonstrates the constant erasing of women’s experience with sexual assault and aggression on daytime tv. How do you not know who you are having sex with- was she drunk or drugged, blind or blindfolded? Wtf? 
 

ABBA always brings a smile to my face. Such amazing and fun music. I came across another music collaboration with the creators- Benny Andersson’s Orkester. Anyone know anything about this? 

15 minutes ago, j swift said:

I was just thinking about how amusing it was that the women of east coast soaps had such sophisticated fashion sensibilities in their choices of clothes, makeup and hair styles. 

I guess it would make sense that Barbara, Lisa, and Carly would keep up with the trends, but it is fun to watch the 90s episodes to see how often the other women are wearing major designers.  It was also a different time when everyone was much less casual in their daily attire (from 90210 to Clueless every young woman wore a blazer with every outfit).  However, I was watching an episode and in one day in Oakdale, Lucinda wore an Escada suit with coordinating coat and shoes, Connor wore a Donna Karan suit, and even Kim Hughes was wearing Armani head to toe.  And think about how avant garde Kim and Carly's haircuts would seem to be in such a small suburban city.

I'm not dissing the midwest, but one wonders about the authenticity of the availability (and affordability) of these small town women wearing high end fashion.  I doubt that we would see many women in a suburban midwestern Target today looking as chic as those ladies.  It wasn't just that their clothes were expensive, but it was complete polished looks that they tuned out on a daily basis (with the obvious exception being Emma Snyder).  In real life, Ellie would have needed another farm just to store all of her hats.  It is fun to look at, and I never questioned it when I watched them at the time, but upon rewatch, the fashions styling was really remarkable.

Years ago, the Toledo Museum of Art showed an exhibition of impressionist paintings. One of the national media nightly programs covered the exhibition. They decided to find the most stereotypical looking people to interview who knew little nor cared about art. This exhibition was attended by thousands in this city. What this shows is people want to believe that if you live in X you have this and you live in y you have this. The truth is you will find people in the Midwest with lots money and they spend it. It totally made sense for these wealthy characters to wear their wealth. I don’t take it as a diss to the Midwest because there is much to not like about it here, but one can find someone just as fashionable in Akron as in New York. 

I think there is an interesting contrast of Lily v Andy. Now Andy had a very involved mother who was nothing like Lucinda or Iva for that matter- but his family had crap loads of drama (it’s a soap) and his father was really a bad guy- John raped his mother among many other crimes. His parents worked and with a father and stepfather who were doctors they were busy - the show would have John and/or Bob at the hospital at all hours. One could argue too busy to be constantly with Andy - something Lily and the writers constantly drag Lucinda. 
 

As to Lily, they established Lucinda was always busy and she was devious. The problem is trying to sell Lily not having warmth and love growing up- or she was lonely (go make some friends at school or the country club- your mama ain’t your confidant or playmate she is your mother)-I never bought it - that is not what I saw on my screen- I saw a character constantly adored. I remember a scene where Lily whines to Holden she grew up without love- now kids can truly believe they are not loved but it was clear onscreen that Lucinda loved Lily. A simple fix for me would have been someone calling her out on her nonsense - they did it with Andy and his drinking, with John and his crap, etc.  I think that was the crux - letting her crap go unchallenged- while the writer may have wanted her to have unattractive qualities - in the totality of the circumstances, it came off as everyone was suppose to agree with her and like those qualities. 
 

About John, what happened with him and Dee. How was what he did not rape?

Stuart Damon was a wonderful actor. I loved Alan and Monica. 

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

Lucinda was old-fashioned in certain aspects. I remember a scene between Lucinda and Craig where they were arguing over Sierra's estranged marriage to Tonio when Lucinda was trying to convince Sierra to stay with Tonio even after the affair with Barbara had been revealed. Lucinda insisted that "a baby needs a father" to an incredulous Craig who chided her by saying something like "How incredibly progressive you are, Lucinda!" and that Sierra needed her friends more than she needed a faithless husband.

She also expressed joy and pride in being referred to as "Mrs. Dr. John Dixon". So, Lucinda could be incredibly old-fashioned in some regards.

I think that what people may have a hard time with is, the delineation between Lucinda as master of the boardroom but preferring a more "traditional" role on the homestead.

If you look at the personal biography of someone like Lucille Ball, you'll see that this is not so uncommon, particularly of women from certain time periods.

This is true for me. I have a hard seeing a strong, devious woman taking crap from a husband or any man. Lucinda wanting to get back with John even though he very publicly was sleeping with Susan made no sense to me. From the above perspective, it makes sense and sometimes we put our own sensibilities on characters.

2 minutes ago, j swift said:

It feels as if once they went down the path of exploring Lucinda's childhood and thereby creating some audience support for her vulnerability, when future writers tried tried the same device the returns were diminishing.  The same thing happened with Dorian on OLTL, once they humanized the diva, they can't keep going back to the same proverbial well and expecting a similar response.

Absolutely. I don’t think exploring the past has to be a set up for sympathy. It can be used to introduce new characters, new experiences etc. Too often writers, especially Marland, had everyone abused by one of their parents and your parents are not always the source of a persons problems. 

3 hours ago, j swift said:

I'm reading the introduction of Sierra on Tumblr from 1985.

 

In retrospect, it doesn't make much sense that Lucinda adopted Lily after abandoning Sierra.

 

Please feel free to correct, but I seem to recall that Lily's adoption was motivated by either the desire to create an heir for Martin Guest, or just to solidify their relationship.  But, why not just go back to South America and use Sierra for those purposes?  The wiki said that Sierra's father forbid Lucinda from seeing her, but it was also established that Sierra thought of Lucinda as her godmother and they had maintained a relationship.  Given that Sierra was probably only a few years older than Lily, and Lucinda was wealthy after her marriage to Martin, it seems entirely possible that Lucinda could have hired someone to go get Sierra when she was much younger rather than waiting for a coup.

 

Obviously, Sierra, and later Bianca, were created for storyline purposes, but the logic doesn't really hold together very well when read back 37 years later.

Lucinda and Martin adopted Lily because Martin was infertile. I do agree with the concept that Lucinda did not need to adopt that ingrate or at least should have dumped her at the farm the moment Iva started stalking her about Lily.  Lol.
 

I think the story was that Lucinda who went by her given name Mary Ellen married Jacobo and gave birth to Sierra. Jacobo was a politician who sort of ran the country. At some point she met and fell in love with Martin. When Jacobo found out he exiled  her and threatened to kill Martin. I think Jacobo was powerful and it was his dying that allowed her to see her child again. 
 

The show was never clear when she changed her name to Lucinda or how her husbands treated her. While on the one hand I have a hard time seeing a character with such a strong personality being meek and mild at a any point, I always thought Lucinda had bad taste in men and her need to control her relationships stemmed from abuse from those men. 
 

Too much changeover in writers and producers that the timelines of all characters get muddied. Exploring her wide open past would have provided much story for her and her relationships for years. Water under the bridge. 

33 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

Martin Guest killed the broker of the illegal adoption that got Lily. Oh my goodness, Clifford Breyer was his name. I admit, I had to find the episode where his name is mentioned.

 

You know, after I posted up-thread, I thought about it, and came to the same conclusion that Lisa, no stranger to multiple marriages and having been widowed more than once, would, in irony of ironies, be the one to actually empathize with Lucinda and come to her defense about her marriage history! The truce, of course, could be temporary but a frenemy relationship should have lasted the life of the show. It would have provided both with something to do, outside of children and grandchildren.

 

Another note about Clifford Breyer- Tonio found out about his widow, who lived in a nursing home and went to visit her to dig up information that he could try to use against Lucinda, as Sierra was divorcing Tonio and he knew his days as Lucinda's right-hand man and successor at the company were, in all likelihood, numbered.

If Tonio lost his job, his Visa would be terminated and he'd likely be deported. I don't remember how much Tonio knew but I think he overheard an agitated Lucinda, talking to Ambrose on the phone, saying no one must find out why Martin killed himself.

I don't remember how much information Tonio actually sussed out from Breuer's widow as she looked to have either Alzheimer's or dementia.  Mrs. Breuer may have remembered some miniscule nugget of information that Tonio was able to piece together before the nurse made him leave. 

EDT: Breyer, not Breuer. Sorry. Auto-correct keeps "fixing" things.

Thanks.

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

Considering the fact that Guest killed someone, it could have been respectability politics on Lucinda's part to try to give Lily a more respected identity. It would have been interesting to explore that aspect later on.

Also, I remember Lily offhandedly saying that Lucinda had been married five times. Who were the other husbands? It could have been fun to have someone suspect Lucinda of being sort of a "Black Widow", especially in the show's last decade when the show was straining for something interesting for their senior veteran characters to do.

Who did Guest kill, I cannot remember.
 

I remember her saying to Connor and Sam she was married to a famous Hollywood star- they should have cast him or explore some of these issues when they had her in therapy. There was so much to unpack with her character - marrying a man and living in a foreign country, forced to leave your child, and the man who was a big reason for her exile commits crimes and kills himself.. I would love to have seen more of the relationship between Lisa and Lucinda - it could have developed like Dorian and Vicki at OLTL.