JamesF

There's a vindictive side of me that finds this satisfying, having been a Neighbours fan for many years.

I used to love H&A at various points but thoroughly believe that for the last 5 or 6 years it's been absolutely dire. So to see the budget and publicity it's had in comparison has been irritating. I don't want to see the show fail but hope this leads to a serious wake up call because there is literally nothing about it now that I find compelling or watchable at all.

A poster has uploaded a large chunk of the run of Berrenger's:

This is one of the few primetime soaps I've never seen so looking forward to binging. I've watched Episode 2 so far and whilst I can see why it didn't last, it's nowhere near as dull as Emerald Point.

To be honest I only watch it very occasionally, usually for big events or if I'm at my parents' (it's the only soap they've kept watching).

There's something about the show that just hasn't clicked with me since the early 2000s, pretty much in line with when it went to 5 days a week. I used to like the countryside archetypes - the farming family, the rich family in the big house, the newcomers, the stragglers who have lived in the village forever. Then it just became a rotation of disparate characters to pad out the cast and I always hated the Dingles.

I did come very close to being a regular viewer again when Gavin Blyth was EP. There seemed to be a buzz about the show and the stories were more reminiscent of what I used to enjoy, particularly with the Wyldes.

That aside there have been bits and pieces which I've thought were excellent and only Emmerdale could pull off. Off the top of my head, Laurel's baby dying, Shadrach's death and the Cameron hostage stuff last year. The latter in particular is something that just doesn't work in Corrie or EE.

Just to address the Kim "back from the dead" issue, it's really interesting because she was definitely regarded, in the press at least, as being dead at the time. If I remember correctly, Frank identified her body specifically to signal that Clare King wouldn't return.

When she did come back, the explanation was extremely weak - something along the lines of Frank being so upset that he mis-identified the body. That's the first recollection I have of a UK soap being ridiculed over here for this kind of story and seemed to set a benchmark that was followed by the rest. Dirty Den's return from the dead was probably the next and obviously the sensationalism has escalated since.

This was also the recap aired on Channel 5 when they skipped from 1997 to 1999. Friday we saw Sheila turn up at the Warwick's - "I'm here to get my baby back" and on Monday Amber was whining, whining, whining whilst getting ready for her wedding to Rick. The tonal shift was erm...disappointing.

Yep, she's just returned this week in the UK so I decided to watch the entire week' worth of episodes in one sitting.

I'm someone who has basically grown up with the show since it started - rarely missed an episode until 2002 (out of habit), never missed an episode between 2002 to 2007 (mostly out of love) and then over the past five years keep an awareness of what's happening but only watch once in a while for the big events.

This week's episodes were the first time in years that I've enjoyed most of the show and can imagine picking it up regularly again. It reminded me how comforting Neighbours is as a long time viewer; it really is like checking in with old friends. The balance is so much better with different types of stories, the new characters such as Lauren seem to be fleshed out a little more, production values are better (sunshine!) and Rebecca's return, however contrived, is a pleasure to watch. Love the actress and character and literally had a warm glow when she walked back into the Kennedy house.

I'll stick it out next week and remain guarded because I've been burned before. Josh and Amber in particular are a millstone for the show from what I can see. Terrible actors and characters with no personality so naturally, they are pushed as the Next!Big!Couple!

It's hard for me to want to really watch any ATWT post-1995. It's some mental block. I don't know why. I guess holding ATWT to too high of standards.

This is interesting because I've been watching the DVDs chronologically and I've hit the late 90s. Unlike GL, I only have a very fundamental knowledge of ATWT i.e. I'm aware of the standout characters and saw various bits and pieces from the last few years. I'm also aware that many people on this board whose opinions I respect (yours included) are passionate about the Marland years and went into watching the DVDs with this in mind.

There's definitely a split with the 90s stuff - on the plus side I will say it's livelier but some of it is like soap parody. Connor and Mark (?) are on two episodes I've seen so far and they're dreadful. Stereotyped soap opera in every way from acting to dialogue. I've no idea what the broader story was to them or whether they were popular but I can't stand either of them.

The Marland years in comparison are far more watchable generally but there's something about them that I find really...sterile. I've seen allusions to this before on this thread - everybody in Oakdale seems to wander round being stiltedly nice to each other with almost universally interchangeable 'voices' as far as dialogue is concerned.

Betsy Stewart seems completely devoid of any personality traits in any incarnations on the set and Sabrina...WTF?!?! Perhaps as a Brit, I struggle with JM's accent but she comes across like a creepy stalker who was possibly dropped on her head at birth. I don't know why Emma seems to fall over herself to make her feel at home. Absolute weirdo.

I do particularly like the Doug Cummings murder stuff (what little is on the set in the 30th anniversary episode) and there are a lot of characters that 'pop' across what I've seen so far: Lisa, Lucinda, Barbara, Kim, Hal, Carly, John and James in particular.

Watching the episodes as they are on the DVD is a pretty strange and subjective way to experience the show. I'm just surprised at how some of my reactions to characters/stories aren't what I would have expected.

Michelle Collins's accent has varied wildly since her first scene but seemed to be finally settling down by the end of tonight's episode. I live in Manchester though I'm not a Northerner and even if it doesn't resemble anything I hear on a daily basis I think she might be passable as she gets used to it.

What I don't get is why she had to have an accent. When Phil Collinson was interviewed on This Morning, the presenters tried to hint that it didn't go down well and was trending on Twitter but he pretty much talked over them to drown out criticism and praise the Stella character to the nth degree. I don't feel strongly about it but I'm really getting a sense of shoehorning an old friend into a role. The set up of the family and the supposed planned storyline isn't bad in itself but Collinson insisted that the landlady should be Northern and clearly she's high profile so...why go for Cindy Beale when there are dozens of powerhouse Northern actresses who could do the job better?

I've read all the criticism about the show over the past few months, here and on Digital Spy and I'm starting to feel ennui about the show. Certain set ups are funny, the odd scene is touching but the whole product is becoming really unappealing. I've not felt so ambivalent about catching episodes since the never ending Frankie/Jamie/Danny triangle.

The cast is getting way, way too small and with Lyn out the door too the demos of the cast just don't stack up. I would never choose to see the Kennedys leave but they'll only work if the 40+ crowd is looked at. My concern is that given the focus of Eleven, there's no encouragement to do it.

As far as returnees, I could really do without Christina. While I agree that it could be good to see Andrew's mother she was a terribly dull character and not well acted. I also believe that she and the other twin ended up getting dodgy plastic surgery and moving to the US. Conversely Gail is a fascinating character, even more so in her 00s returns. The difficulty is linking her to anything other than Paul. There's no reason why she would come back. In a lot of ways I think Rebecca's relationship with Paul overlapped as to where it would have gone if they'd managed to get Gail back for a full time stint.

I wonder whether bringing Max back with a new wife might work as another blended family. I'd also enjoy a Darcy return to go up against Paul and either of Susan's sisters to dig up the euthanasia plot again. Amy Robinson, Lou's kids, Angie Rebecchi, Tad Reeves, siblings of Michael's...even Mal and Catherine would be good. Catherine could easily be recast and I'd like to see her spin out of control being stuck back in suburban Melbourne. Possibly turning against Karl and Susan and having an affair. There were several hints when Mal came back in 2002 that she'd rather die than go back to Erinsborough.

Whilst I agree with Susan Bower that it's hard to do returns for the sake of it, the cast needs revitalising and the first things that should be looked at are 1) what type of characters are missing - this is what Ric P did when he came in as EP and turned the show round. 2) what relatives are available. Family connections were a key factor of the show's success in 2004/5. Izzy in particular impacted on the Hoylands, Kennedys, Scullys, Bishops and Robinsons.

I've just finished a re-watch of this and was planning to comment. I'd seen the series through several years ago and had memories of it being very dry so I was in two minds about whether to give it another shot. I'm not quite sure how I got that opinion in the first place.

The first season trundles along and probably is fairly run of the mill. Unlike Dallas and Knots Landing, the nature of Flamingo Road really doesn't lend itself to episodic storytelling. It's a Southern potboiler that needs to feel like a novel with some decent backstory.

Season 2 is where the show really hits its stride and the last 6 or 7 episodes are wild. It finally has an identity completely distinct from the other primetime soaps of the time and through the Michael Tyrone character, the history of Flamingo Road is developed. I think the inclusion of other regular characters helps to give the mainstays more people to play with (discounting Skipper and Alicia who are a complete bore). Claude and Eudora in particularly come alive and Barbara Rush is absolutely fantastic. Her character goes on the most interesting journey out of any from the pilot until the last episode.

I can't imagine where the show would have headed if it got another full season.

As for Constance, she probably did sleep with every male character she wasn't related to bar Elmo. In her defense, the cast was too small for this to be avoided...

I think Kirkwood will go. There's been a lot of anger towards him for a long time on some of the message boards, and if this controversy continues he will be seen as an easy choice. I don't think John Yorke will go too, as some are suggesting, but I'm sure he must be very bewildered by all of this. I'm still bewildered too. Far more offensive stories have never gotten protest. I just wonder what we will now see onscreen in place of this story. Is it going to be a return to last February and March when they had to fill gaps with crap like the stolen post?

But I don't think the majority of those who object (and this is a major national news story this week) have any idea who Kirkwood even is so unless the BBC try to scapegoat him even though the story wasn't his idea, I don't know what it would achieve.

As for the controversy...I don't like the story and I do think it's offensive but only in the context of the paradigm that EE has set itself in over the years. It would be one thing for Emmerdale or US soaps to do the story which they both kind of have but EE has always prided itself on gritty realism - topical stories that can get families talking. This story doesn't fall into that category.

I saw this backlash coming a mile off for that reason. Value judgement aside, I am frankly amazed that the BBC didn't.

Yes she was. I knew absolutely nothing about it as I only watch occasionally and then I woke up from my flu induced slumber to see it. Very creepy but well played.

Perhaps I'm being naive but I really don't see Bryan Kirkwood going if the story wasn't his idea.

I've not seen anything in the national press or news items (and there are a lot!) that even references him. I think most people are looking to place blame higher - more generally with the BBC as a whole.

I don't think there's any problem with going down that route, simply allowing them the flexibility to tackle grittier things as and when they want to. Most of what's in Home and Away or even B&B needn't be classified PG so it could be on a level footing.

Interesting point you make about the coldness of the Parkers. I think they were desperate to recapture "heart" but the casting was just wrong, wrong, wrong. Particularly Miranda and Riley. Subsequently the family lacked any chemistry and it all fell flat.

A new user on YouTube (ClassicNeighbours) seems to be uploading various episodes, mostly post-2000 in good quality. I've just been reliving some of the stuff from 2004-5. God I loved the show back then.

I felt conversely to this episode as I did about EE. I don't generally watch Emmerdale but I understood exactly what was going on, why characters were reacting in the way that they were and there was consistency about it.

The wedding was the right mix of camp and searing drama and Lucy Pargeter played the hell out of it. You could tell she was absolutely chuffed to get the big Christmas climax after years of playing sideline hijinx. The final confrontation when she told Carl she deserved better and linked it back to Paddy was beautifully written and acted. She shouldn't be a likeable person - openly admitting that she chose a man over her son and broke Paddy's heart - but it works.

Why is Katy dating a man old enough to be her grandfather? Don't care about Layla's child or whatever.

I really like the Geordie girl in the B&B that's connected to Val. An unusually good actress for a teenager and she seems to have great chemistry with the other characters. I'm very interested in where they go with the Elizabeth Pollard story. I never thought it would get brought up again and it's great to see the show acknowledging history prior to 2000.

My only other random note is that I suddenly find Carl King and David as sexy as hell. Not sure where that's come from.

The upside to the Xmas episode was that it was Jonathan Harvey comedy. I know he's far too camp and OTT for some but at least I'm always guaranteed a laugh.

The Tracy stuff is just really, really bad. I was txting a friend throughout and we both couldn't get our heads around how she's going to stay as a viable character. She's never been particularly multi-faceted but she's never just been vicious to people as constantly as she has been since she came back. Even if they choose to go this route with her (prison hardened her even more blah blah blah), why are the Barlows being so weak willed about it? She nigh on abused Amy and there was barely a tut from anyone. Does Deirdre not remember the two hander they had before Tracy got sent down in which she finally saw her true colours? Ken pretty much disowned her after the murder and yet he was happy to stand in the background offering up a half-hearted monotone "Traceeeeeey" every now and then.

The Websters are fantastic which is a saving grace. I was very uncomfortable with the way the baby was being treated but I'm enjoying all of the fallout. Sally Dynevor has grown so much as an actress. In the mid-90s it would be unfathomable that she would be holding the show together as much as she is.

Rita's singing - corny but worked in a [!@#$%^&*] kind of way.

I so don't want Claire to leave. There's always been something about her I find fascinating and I'd hope that without Ashley we might be able to see more of her real character instead of crazy postnatal depression shenanigans. Sigh.

Watching some of the episode again, they crammed so many story threads, years of them, into those 56 minutes. While it wasn't all great (I would have left Janine's stabbing to later in the episode and possibly left it up to viewers to decide whether Stacey stabbed her)

That would have made it much more interesting to me. I felt there was a certain lack of tension in the episode - a predictability to it that let it down.

I'm a lapsed viewer who dips in for the big events (the kind of viewer I'd usually slate incidentally) so I was watching the episode rather out of context. That considered, I really didn't enjoy it. There were some standout moments such as Jean/Stacey and erm...the final scene but otherwise it just felt weird to me.

I didn't understand half of what was going on and the characters outside of Janine/Stacey/Jean/Max seemed so flat. I barely recognised Tanya Branning and her boyfriend was a mute. I don't know what was supposed to be going on between Tanya Branning and Tanya Turner but I did enjoy the ambiguity of TB's reaction to Max running after Stacey.

Kat/Alfie turn my stomach. Ronnie/Roxy seem completely and utterly played out. I couldn't agree more when Ronnie was telling Roxy to "leave it".

I'm probably being far more judgmental than I should be but from the odd episodes I've seen over the past month, there's very little substance to anything which is strange because to begin with Kirkwood seemed to be working on things. Except for a chosen few, the character personalities seem interchangeable and they react depending on what the story requires of them.

I'll watch tonight after a little less boozing and see if I change my mind.

I did a rewatch recently and you sum the series up pretty perfectly, Chris.

The show is at its best for seasons 3-4. Best being a very low bar but it's at the very least entertaining, twisty, campy. There's no depth of character but at least the story driven 'events' seem to have some impact. Season 5 was absolute boredom and the rest of the series a complete mess bar Season 9. It's a genuinely risky, entertaining season of TV - probably stronger in the first half than the second but still great stuff. I know some diehard fans get their knickers in a twist about it with Maggie dying etc etc but it was such a poor series generally that I don't know why the shift in tone actually matters to them.

Okay I'll weigh in too. Perhaps my standards have dropped but I find the show much more watchable now than I have done in over 18 months. I no longer feel as though the foundation of the show has crumbled beyond repair because the balance has changed and I'm now watching stories that interest me as opposed to teen romance nonsense 90% of the time.

That's not to say it's perfect. There are a lot of things I would improve but this is fine tuning a canvas of characters that seems to work well together for the most part. Sonya is a fantastic, earthy addition to the show that makes Toadie and Callum tolerable to me for the first time ever. The new generation of teens is more watchable because there's some genuine conflict instead of the crap we had with the last lot. Summer and Natasha remind me a lot of Sky and Serena who were the last teens to have any appeal.

Weak links? Losing Rebecca is catastrophic. Karl and Susan are crying out for a storyline. Paul still lacks focus or motivation. He is a good example of what Ben has said regarding Susan Bower's black and white characterization.

But at the risk of playing devil's advocate, what I like about the Steph/Toadie/Dan/Libby mess is the show taking a risk with the characters. Steph slept with her best friend's husband, gave away her baby, killed her neighbour - but I still think she's likeable and I still think Libby's behaviour was just a more extreme version of what we've seen before which is understandable given the circumstances. I feel as though Steph and Libby's twisted resentment of each other despite being best friends finally manifested itself and I can believe it in the characters which many fans can't. I do agree however that the writing was erratic at times.

Neighbours is not about darkness, but about human kindness, love and good humour. Dark stories have there place when told with the right balance, and with the right characters, but when the show is flooded with misery and nastiness, it's difficult to appreciate the good dark stories, like Paul blackmailing Rebecca to stay married. That story has so many layers, and as dark as it is, one that probably gets written off as more of the same. But I love its potential, and appreciate it for what it is; Jane Hall & Stefan Dennis sell the material, too, which is a bonus.

I agree about that story and I only wish it had more airtime. I want to see Rebecca and Paul at home and the power play going on. There is room for that kind of story alongside genuine human kindness stuff as there was in 2004 which is why I disagree with Jenny Lewis's article. I don't mean stupid stories about gnomes etc but building friendships and couples that we invest in. Only the Kennedys and Rebecca could make me shed a tear these days and I'm ashamed to admit that Neighbours used to be able to get the waterworks going with most of its cast.

My final note - so much could be improved if Susan Bower would grow the [!@#$%^&*] up and let the show go to PG on Eleven. There would be no objection to the global audience because Australia has one of the most draconian TV classification systems. It would finally allow the series to return to being 'provocative' and family friendly. Tackling issues seriously instead of sugar coating things in code. I just thank god that the writers have strapped on a pair lately and allow discussion of people sleeping together. The Steph/Dan shag would have been a joke otherwise.

The best promo the show's done in a long while. Shame it took the move to Eleven to do it.

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Well I thought elements of tonight's episodes were fantastic.

The tension was built up incredibly well and Tyrone finding out about the baby was surprisingly moving. It's very unusual for EE or Corrie to make stylistic editing choices but it worked for this - cutting between a fight in the Joinery/the hen night/Sally and Tyrone/Molly and Kevin/Rita before the explosion.

The negatives:

-Some of the CGI was a little ropey but nowhere near as bad as the DS forums are suggesting. Probably only two shots that were on the cheap side out of the bunch and the jacknife into the Kabin looked relatively realistic.

-There was an awful lot of foreshadowing in the first episode. Too cheesy for my taste.

-John Stape killing Charlotte. Is there a woman on the street who hasn't been married to a psycho?

-Rita's involvement was quite...bizarre.

A preview video's been released today for the tram crash. It's quite lengthy so if you're avoiding spoilers, give it a miss.

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I've tuned in tonight because I've seen so many billboards for "Fire Week".

Good lord. The acting is absolutely atrocious. I just saw a scene with the Sharpe (?) family that had to be seen to be believed and I can't believe that a) they are actually paid or the scenes are broadcast on national television.

I'm still watching and enjoying more than I have since probably 2008. It's bizarre that there are now very few characters that completely annoy/disinterest me. Kate and NuDeclan being the only prime candidates. It's also a real tragedy that just as the show hits a creative stride (presumably because Ten have completely lost interest and stopped pushing an agenda), audiences are dropping to an all time low. What doesn't seem to be considered is that viewers often desert a show that the network has given up on. DOOL didn't exactly soar when Jeff Zucker prematurely signed its death warrant.

As for the stories, it's fantastic to finally get a long running adult storyline in Paul's murder attempt that doesn't rely on the Kennedys as a standby. Jane Hall is, dare I say it overshadowing Jackie Woodburne with her acting. An incredible talent and a brilliant character that will be truly missed. It's great to finally have some darkness in the characters too - Rebecca pushed Paul and covered it up but she's still a heroine. Likewise Paul is not panto villain as he was in 2006. Steph/Libby is another case in point of this. It's not got going the moral browbeating route.

On the other side of the coin, even the teenagers appeal to me because Bower has redressed the balance issue. There's something very Sky Mangel-esque about Summer and I genuinely don't understand why fans on forums detest her. Andrew, Natasha and to a lesser extent Chris are also entertaining.

Woah just seen the 6000th episode preview:

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Dare I say it looks like the show seems to be hinting at a creative upswing? I'll not get too excited just yet but the preview does look good. I like the fact that Paul's in a business story and Libby/Steph's meltdown. Even the teens are vaguely interesting with the new gay character and the actress playing Summer is pretty good.

I'm about a week behind at the mo so yet to see Jane Badler's character onscreen...hope it's worthwhile.