JarrodMFiresofLove

2 hours ago, Mitch said:

Yea, I found the Reva/Cassie relationship as annoying as hell, but then, I HATED Cassie and wasn't to fond of PostResurrection Reva either.  Besides that I think the main thing was the Roxie wasn't as shrill as Reva, who became self-righteous in her old age by the time Cassie came along, and Cassie owned the title of the self entitled cheerleader who could be sweet as pie until she didn't get her way. The two of them together were too much. ( I loved when they brought Vanessa back for the anniversary and Cassie was glaring at her and Van strutted by with her old elegant "Couldnt be concerned with the trash"way. )

 

I think that Roxie acted like a scrappy young woman with not the greatest self esteem, and Wright never came off as the down on her heels former stripper. I never understood why they made Cassie a heroine..she would have been so much better as a trashy social climber who found herself in the lap of luxury being related to the Lewises.  Wrights natural shrillness would have worked if they just didn't act like she floated on a cloud all the time, even Reva would get a kick in the ass from the other characters but no one said a word to or about Cassie. Though, I think those bar afternoons Wright got with E & B helped them see Cassie in a certain way. I do think that they could have turned her with the mercy killing of Richard, where she becomes estranged from Reva and the Lewises and goes dark. I would imagine Wright would have liked the challenge.

My favorite GL story of all time, the mercy killing of Richard. I loved all how all the fairy tale romance stuff of San Christobel led to that, and how it drove a wedge between the two sisters. Millee Taggart wrote it. The episode where Reva helped Richard die was heartbreaking. Then when Cassie found out. Soap gold. Giving Richard's heart to the similarly named Rick seemed to have a fitting irony.

22 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

 

It's interesting that the seeds of Roxie's eventually breakdown started in the fall of 1987.  I always thought having Roxie go crazy was kind of a cop out but the actress decided to up and quit.. so I guess Long couldn't write out Roxie as dumping Johnny since the character was too devoted/true blue to Johnny so I guess having her have a breakdown made sense storywise.  Why the show never thought to have her recover and come visit I'll never understand (though in 1990, Long had written that Roxie was recovering and making progress so Johnny broke things off with Chelsea to go be with her... but future writers had her still in mental hospitals up till 2002 at least).  I liked Roxie/Reva's sisterly relationship much better than the Cassie/Reva one that the show kept trying to push down our throats.  

 

While Reva/Roxie both suffered from mental illness issues... I always saw Roxie as being warmer, full of spirit, and not a social climber like Reva was.  I wish Long and other writers made more of a point of showing how Roxie/Reva differed from one another.

 

There was nothing to keep later head writers from recasting the role of Roxy, after enough time had passed, if actress Kristy Farrell wasn't interested in returning. But when Esensten & Harmon Brown introduced Cassie and Cassie took off with viewers, it probably made Roxy redundant and unnecessary to the show's ongoing drama with Reva. All she really needed was one brother and one sister.

I think a mistake later writers made is that Reva had kids outside her marriage to Josh (like Dylan and Jonathan) but Josh did not. It would have been interesting if they'd given Josh a child outside their marriage, If not with Sonni, then we could have found out Tangie had a kid of his after she'd left Springfield. Or that Annie/Teri gave birth to a child in the nuthouse. Or they could have said Josh had fathered a kid with some other chick during his wilder younger days in Springfield before Reva showed up. Not having a kid of his own gave him less drama to play. In the later years we typically had Reva stories about HER kids, with Josh there as more of a supporting character, instead of a story or relationship that was just all about Josh.

2 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

I know that some have said that they thought the couple was boring, but I liked Lyla & Casey. 

 

Perhaps because the 1980s became known as the era of the Super Couple (a term I've come to resent), people's expectation of a soap couple was slanted toward some couple that looked lifted from the cover of a Harlequin Romance novel, or something but I thought it was a couple that was grounded much more in reality and realistic problems, although I thought the majority of the couples on ATWT were closer to a realistic portrayal than a lot of other soaps.

 

One thing that I could appreciate, something that today's soaps seem fairly inept at, is that time was taken to build Casey's character on his own.  Lyla had a longer history on the canvas so we'd expect her to have a fully-formed character by the time she and Casey got together but I enjoyed the fact that Casey's character was built on its own, outside of a pairing first before he ever got together with Lyla.  And their pairing was something of a surprise.  Nowadays, from casting, everyone can spot a mile away, who will end up being paired off with whom.

 

I remember watching an episode last week where Lyla was in NYC and Casey was unsure of the status of his and Lyla's relationship.  Frannie, who'd just broken off her engagement to Seth, encouraged Casey to call Lyla and sort things out.  Casey called but ended up feeling frustrated when he could only leave a message with Lyla's "Do Not Disturb" answering service.  I started to wonder how many fans at that time assumed that he and Frannie would get together and how many thought he'd reconcile with Lyla?  Even the thought that there was a little suspense surrounding a relationship made me appreciate how many possibilities Marland created with these characters--a few times, it seemed, almost too many!

 

I vaguely remember the Native American woman, I think I was likely watching less at that particular moment.  Was this after Casey had passed away, or was he still alive?  I think this had to be years after, right?

The actress who portrayed the character, Kimberly Guerrero, is more memorable to me for her stint on Seinfeld that that storyline on ATWT.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I love what you said about the term supercouple and Marland's version of it. Of course Lily & Holden became Marland's big supercouple but the other more mature couples, like Kim & Bob and Lyla & Casey had plenty of good moments too. I remember an interview Marland did in one of the soap mags where he said he had been going towards a Frannie-Casey pairing but saw how well Anne Sward (Lyla) and Bill Shanks (Casey) worked together, so he put Casey with Lyla, and put Frannie into a triangle with Seth and Sabrina. What I liked about Lyla and Casey was they both had very distinct backgrounds. Marland took the time to clue us in about Casey's large Italian family even though they lived outside Oakdale. Bill Shanks was a great actor, sexy and funny, very well suited to the soap genre, because you could see why women would fall for him, but also he wasn't arrogant or off-putting, and with his sense of humor, he seemed relatable. I was devastated when Marland decided to kill him off.

The Native American girl was named Simone. I just looked up Kimberly Guerrero on the IMDb and it says she was on ATWT from 1992 to 1993. I could have sworn it was earlier. So she must have shown up after Casey's death, I suppose when Lyla was involved with Cal. She rented a room from Lyla, and I believe she was from New Mexico. Maybe she was a nursing student? I can't recall all the details of why she came to Oakdale or if she was involved romantically with anyone. She stood out, because there were no real Native American characters on soaps up to that point, or very many since. At least not on contract, and she was a regular character for a year.

Anyone else a fan of Casey & Lyla? They were one of my favorite couples in the late 80s.

Wasn't there a Native American girl who stayed with them for awhile? What was her name, and what was her story?

On 11/22/2018 at 7:39 PM, Khan said:

 

A Mike/Nola pairing with Armand Assante and Kathryn Harrold would have been golden.

Kathryn Harrold is my favorite actress in these 1976/77 episodes. She's excellent. She doesn't flub her lines the way so many others do. She has totally nailed the character, making Nola feisty not bitchy. It's a fascinating portrayal.

10 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

From what I have read of consultants, they are simply there to offer advice and opinions that are not necessarily followed up on.

 

It's a lucrative job for them.

 

It's another long standing tradition, like focus groups, that TPTB believe to be necessary or useful for whatever reason.

 

As for 'the Bells' being the real consultants, I don't believe they have had any control or influence for many years.

I think there's a lot of misinformation and correcting on these boards instead of insightful discussion and exchange of ideas.

The Bells still own a large stake in Y&R. Sony has the larger share, but the Bells are still financially involved. You can be sure that Kay Alden's suggestions were meant to carry forward what the Bells wanted to happen with the storytelling and overall tone of the show. The problem is that the executive producer, Mal Young, got rid of his first head writer (Chuck Pratt), then got rid of his next head writer (Sally Sussman) and took over the writing himself. So as a writer-executive producer he had more power than those other head writers. Alden could serve no purpose with him unless he was receptive to her ideas but he wasn't because he intended to start moving the show in a new direction with Sony's approval.

Consultants on soaps work best if they are not part of the "old guard" resisting change. They have to still be cutting edge, working in tandem with the head writer to make sure the show stays relevant, innovative and adapts to changing times and cultural values.

1 minute ago, Vee said:

That's not how consulting on soaps works.

 

The titles can be important but they are also often largely ceremonial. Many 'consultants' on soaps have ideas regularly dismissed and were just there as wallpaper, especially in the last 20 years. Including Agnes Nixon at AMC in much of the 2000s, and Kay Alden at Y&R in the last couple years. Their ideas and opinions were regularly dismissed by management, the EP or in some cases the HW.

 

I have never heard any viable claim that Swajeski or Culliton or any other consulting writer had to clear the HWs' work at GL as consultants.

Sorry but your comment seems ridiculous to me. I never said they cleared the head writer's work. I said they were there to help with transitions between regimes and the head writers were accountable to them which they were. If the head writers planned to kill off half the veteran cast, you can be sure the consultant was right there telling them not to do that. And if the head writers didn't listen, the consultant was on the phone with the producers.  The consultants were there to keep things running smoothly. To suggest better ways of doing things, at least at P&G.

I think the consultants are used differently at ABC and differently on Y&R, because someone like Kay Alden was still accountable to the Bells who are the real consultants. Agnes Nixon's problem was something else entirely-- they stopped listening to her because, quite frankly and it's going to sound cruel, she had become an old woman and experienced ageism. The same thing happened to Irna Phillips the last year of her life. The older ones were seen as out of touch with how the genre had evolved and nobody listened to them anymore.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

 

I can see what you're saying... it is entirely possible that she did some alterations on the scripts.. but since they were written using outlines by Anderson/Manetta.. that is why they were probably credited.  

 

And I am curious on the committee writing thing you mentioned before.. since Another World and ATWT didn't employ this committee writing thing as much as GL did (well ATWT probably started to once Marland passed away.. but AW kept a head-writer/co head writer thing up till the mid 90s).  I think the test to see which parts of the show were Long's idea and which weren't would probably be answered in early 1991 episodes after she departed (Mallet/Mindy ended fairly quickly once Long left)... while the whole Mindy/Roger affair kept going (Curlee had mentioned that was her idea)... plus Harley working with Mindy at the fashion house ended in early 1991.. and she decided to become a cop.

 

Another thing from viewing 1989 episodes (which answer so many questions for me as to how Gilly came onto the scene.. how Billy/Nadine met.. and what caused Vanessa/Billy to break up yet again).. is that I finally got the answer to why Maureen was always jealous of Holly.  Holly was the one to end things with Ed in the summer of 1989 because she knew he still loved Maureen.. while Ed was protesting the end of their new relationship.  It explained why Maureen was on edge whenever Holly came to Ed for advice or help.. because Maureen knew Ed was still in love with Holly.. and she felt, as misguided as it was, that Ed only came back to him because Holly broke up with him.  Which is why she instantly assumed Holly and Ed were having an affair in 1992 (when it was Lillian, not Holly) because Maureen always believed Ed would go running back if Holly had given the ok.  

I always figured the committee writing thing was started to streamline operations and to keep the power of a head writer in check. After Pam Long left there tended to be three co-headwriters for awhile. I wonder how much power Megan McTavish had. James Harmon Brown & Barbara Esensten were a team, but I watched a behind-the-scenes segment with them, and they sat at a large conference table with the other writers and she usually pitched an idea then the rest chimed in and either shot it down or approved it, which seemed very committee-driven. He seemed to focus on individual scripts. He specialized in tweaking dialogue, and he would pull the dialogue writers aside and tell them, "I want Character X to say this in that scene" or "Character Y would never say that, instead change his speech so it sounds like this..." etc.

I think that as the show went along, the writers' main tasks were split among the members of the group. Long was a visionary and I don't think she liked the idea of deciding stories as a group. From her days as head writer of Texas, her style was more to create an extensive bible with everything specifically laid out for the year ahead, with nobody being allowed to tamper with her vision for the main families. But I do think Long was in tune with her actors, so if they were struggling or something didn't feel right for them, she'd revise it.

Later, in the early 2000s, when GL's ratings dropped significantly, there was still a main head writer, but then there were also creative consultants. So when Millee Taggart was headwriting, Carolyn Culliton was a consultant, which basically meant Taggart was accountable to Culliton. And when Ellen Weston was head writer and David Kreizman was head writer Donna Swajeski was the creative consultant and they had to run their ideas by her. I also think the creative consultants were on hand when P&G fired a head writer and brought a new head writer in...the consultant would ensure that the transitions between regimes went as smoothly as possible and that the legacy characters remained intact.

2 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

 

There is a July 1st 1987 posted from awhile back that showed Anderson/Manetta were still listed as head-writers (during the 50th anniversary week) so I'm going to guess the reason that a lot of Warren's past was referenced was because the breakdown/script writers writing the episodes had been there during Long's 1st tenure. 

 

There isn't a whole lot of episodes posted between early July and fall of 1987 when Long is back as head-writer.. so I'm guessing she came back in July/August 1987.  The fact that Lacey Bauer was still around by July 1st 1987 makes me believe that Long hadn't returned yet.. because once she officially came back, Lacey was shown the door... Frank Cooper was created.. and Harley Cooper followed shortly thereafter (with mentions of Nadine coming as early as the start of 1988 as well).

 

Thanks. think in those days the writing was six weeks ahead of airtime. So this stuff with Warren from the second week of June could have been right when Long came back and got her hands on scripts that Anderson/Manetta did. Stuff she fixed just before it was to be filmed. The material with her name on it, meaning scripts she created from scratch, wouldn't hit the screen until probably sometime in late July or early August.

The scene that most made me feel this episode had the Long touch was the dialogue Mindy says to Roxy in the waiting room. About how much they love Rusty and need to be there to help him pull through, and Roxy tells Mindy she's an honorary Shayne. It just connected the Lewises and Shaynes so explicitly, in a way that Long would have done since these families were her brainchild. Also Long was known for highly emotional sentimental writing, and the way Mindy and Roxy reach out to each other, while Hawk and Sarah stand by each other inside Rusty's room, just felt really emotional and sentimental the way Long tells her stories.

BandstandMike the guy who's been posting these episodes told me in an email earlier today that he has more episodes from 87 that he will continue to post. But he admitted a lot of it is "lost" (of course P&G still has all of these episodes somewhere).

A June 1987 episode was posted to YouTube yesterday and I watched it last night. There were no credits at the end, just the P&G logo. So I can't tell if this is Pam Long's material yet. Certain lines and scenes definitely felt like her influence. So even if it's the end of Anderson/Manetta's material, which I suspect it is with the conclusion of the Paul Valere murder mystery, I think Long has tweaked it. Dr. Will Jeffries made one of his very first appearances, and if memory serves correctly, he was a Long creation.

What I liked about this episode is that while Warren Andrews is revealed as Valere's killer, and he's holding Alan and Chelsea at gunpoint, we get a lot of good dialogue about Warren's first days in Springfield; how his wife Lesley Ann died, which he blames on Alan; and how he went from Cedars to Spaulding to owning the Blue Orchid. So even if this was still technically the last part of Anderson/Manetta's material, I think Long definitely oversaw the writing of these scenes, since it referenced a lot of the earlier drama with Warren she had done.

Here's Warren's complete history on the soap central website: http://www.soapcentral.com/gl/whoswho/warren.php

We also have some good stuff going on at the hospital where Rusty's been brought into the emergency room because he's just been shot. We get to see Roxy go off the rails lashing out at Johnny, while Mindy learns what has happened. Plus Hawk and Sarah bond at Rusty's bedside. That scene with Hawk and Sarah reconnecting definitely felt like something Long would have overseen.

And there were some good scenes with Ross, Jackson and Fletcher trying to figure out where Warren had taken Chelsea. As well as a very interesting nightmare scene where Reva dreamed that Kyle was Marah's father, and Miss Sally was taunting her. I get the feeling the animosity between the actresses was real. I don't think Kim Zimmer liked working with Patricia Barry. It feeds into the hatred the women are supposed to have with each other on camera.

The soap central site says Warren's last episode was the 12th of June 1987, which was a Friday. The episode posted on YT ends with Warren still holding Alan and Chelsea at gunpoint. Phillip hasn't come in yet and stopped him from killing Chelsea and Alan. I believe Warren's last episode featured him in prison. Therefore the episode on YT is either from the week of June 1-5 or the first part of June 8-12. My guess is that it's from the 8th of June. Since I bet Rusty being shot by Valere's goon was the Friday cliffhanger on the 5th.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

I've been rewatching 1989 (Pam Long's first full year back as head-writer).. and it's interesting to see how she effortlessly tested characters with one another to see what worked and what didn't work.... for example..

 

Nadine was scheming with Alan when she first arrived, had a brief relationship with Ross (I recall the actor playing Ross saying that he wished the relationship was explored more), and it was Billy that first approached her.. not the other way around.  In fact, Billy/Nadine were in cahoots because he was interested in getting Vanessa back and Nadine had her eye on Ross.. and Vanessa/Ross were casually flirting/talking (I loved how that relationship thread was maintained into the late 90s where even Blake was jealous of it circa 1992/3).  And the thing was that Nadine wasn't an idiot, but was just ambition yet had an interesting/tense relationship with both Harley/Frank during that period.

 

I also had no idea that Frank/Holly was tested a few times.. while Johnny/Holly was also tested (all post Ed and before she and Roger thawed out toward one another)... while Chelsea/Phillip were still tense with one another after their break up the year before... and that Sam had a crush on Frank before she/Dylan were paired together.  It's interesting to see 1989 as a year where Long was experimenting to see how all the pieces would fit together... and it is a shame Michelle Forbes opted to leave in late 1989 because Sonni/Roger were intriguing as well as Blake/Sonni not getting along.. while Sonni/Rusty were actually friendly with one another (with chemistry to boot since he and Kimberly Simms Mindy didn't have any).

 

I often think Curlee didn't officially become a co headwriter (or take over 50 percent of the duties) till at least 1990 when a lot of these experiments went away.

Great post. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons Long quit in late 1990 (though there were several reasons) is because she didn't like how P&G soaps had started to become written by committee. She didn't like her vision questioned by other writers who were starting to have equal power with her. When Long was hired at Santa Barbara in 1991, she had full control over plots and characters again. But of course Santa Barbara was on its last legs and ended less than a year later in early 1992.

It's really a shame Long couldn't be persuaded to go back to Guiding Light during that rough patch in the mid 90s or even in the mid 2000s when the show was basically on life support. If anyone could have breathed new life into Springfield, it would have been her. But I think she had been burned badly by P&G in 1990 and she would never work for the company again. She did serve as headwriter for One Life to Live in the late 90s, and that stint was quite interesting. But after she left OLTL she was done with daytime soaps. Of course, she's been involved in numerous other projects.

3 hours ago, Mitch said:

 

 

I remember that..it was great! You immediately knew that new writers were involved (in much the same way of Marland's first week of ATWT) but not only that, you knew it was Pam Long. She and Marland had distinct writing styles that you just knew it was "them".  I remember someone writing in a soap mag at the time that GL viewers knew who "Pam Long" was but fans of other soaps had no clue who the headwriters were or cared.

 

Unfortunatley other writers just kept shoving Reva into a red dress to show she was "wild" so much so that Zimmer said, "Every time I see that damn red dress I know I am going to have to act like an ass!"

 

Yes, I think McTavish had Reva wear a red dress for a special episode when Reva was married to Buzz (that was an interesting pairing).

Long's use of Reva in the red dress was a variation of the baptism scene. It was just another way for Long to show viewers how this character could shock the more dignified members of Springfield society. Most especially how Reva's wild side simultaneously attracted and repulsed Josh.

44 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

 

I do feel 1988 would have the year that Long's efforts at fixing the show would have paid off except for the writer strike hindering five months or so of story.

 

With that said, the first week she and the other writers came back in mid September 1988... you noticed a difference right away in how the show was written.  She picked up the random threads the scabs left and ran with them... providing some interesting story material for Fletcher (as grieving widow), Maureen, Ed, etc.  I also think the scab writers were the ones to have Meredith/Phillip hook up randomly... which Long took and ran with generating months of story/conflict with Rick/Phillip/Blake/Meredith... and pairing Alex/Fletcher was an interesting choice since the two had interacted for several years on occasion while both were in other relationships... and having the two flying to South America (because of their ties to the Sonni story) and crashing on an island where Roger Thorpe was... a good way to kick start another story.

 

In regards to Jackson Fremont, I always wonder if Long had intended to write him off after the Largo story and Lujack's death aftermath was over because she left shortly after the conclusion of that story.  I do think when she returned, she did phase him out to being a recurring character.  And I think the only reason she kept Chelsea on was mostly due to the actress and not the character... though I did think Chelsea/Maureen had good sister chemistry... and the Rae stalking story in late 1989/early 1990 was a good showcase for Chelsea.  It was just that she was left in limbo for the last six months or so she was on the show with the show having her sing at the Blue Moon.. and flirting with Fletcher/Frank.  

 

I also would have loved to have had someone ask Long what her original plans were for Blake (since she was known for writing extensive bibles for new characters).

She probably saved what she could from the original plans for Blake and then took what she couldn't apply to Blake and recycled it for another character. I think that's what she did with Beth's cousin. She ended up making India more high class and Alexandra's stepdaughter, then reused her original idea for Beth's cousin when she created Jessie Matthews. She had specific goals in mind with the families and had certain creations in mind to fit those families and breathe new life into them. That's where she was light years ahead of other head writers and why so many of her characters became iconic legacy characters that lasted until the show finally left the airwaves.

With regards to the Alex-H.B. pairing, I think the reason she discontinued that was because she wanted her families to remain intact as wholly distinct. If she had a Spaulding marry a Lewis, then it would merge those two families and make them into one new identity, instead of the separate identities she had created for them. This would also explain why she didn't let Lillian marry Hawk, because she wanted to keep the Raines separate from the Shaynes; and why she split Mindy & Rusty up. She already had Reva as a Shayne & Lewis and making Mindy a hybrid would continue to blend those two families instead of letting them be distinctly separate identities. If my theory is correct, this also explains why she kept Roxy from marrying Johnny and becoming a Bauer.

Long's plan always seemed to be keep her core families intact. She would bring in an outsider like Kyle Sampson and his mother Sally because they were intended to be part of the Lewis clan through their connection with Billy. And she'd let Rusty marry Rose McLaren, an outside woman, because it was a way to increase the Shaynes...but it did not come at the expense of taking from one of the other core families. As I said she didn't want her core families being watered down through a lot of intermarrying. That's the mistake the interim writers made which she corrected when she came back on to the show.

When she introduced the Coopers she did connect them to some of the other families. She had the teen (Dylan) who got Harley pregnant turn out to be Reva's long lost son. But Dylan and Harley never married, so Harley continued to remain as a Cooper. When Harley hooked up with Alan Michael we knew it was something that wouldn't last and they never had any kids together.

Of course later writers started blending the families again. Nadine would marry Billy Lewis; Dylan would marry Bridget Reardon; Harley would marry Phillip Spaulding and have a son with him; Harley would also have a son with Rick Bauer, etc.

Sometimes Long created a character like Fletcher Reade who basically was an independent type but bounced in and out of several families' orbits. Fletcher was involved with the Bauers (through his friendship with Ed & Maureen), with the Spauldings (because of his relationship with Alexandra), with the Norrises (when he married Holly), and with the Reardons (when he briefly was interested in Chelsea).

Ross Marler was another character, one Long didn't create, who was used in the same way. He was involved with all the core families,  and had dated a lot of women in those families in between his two marriages (to Carrie Todd and Blake Thorpe). But Fletcher always had his own distinct identity; and so did Ross. They were never totally absorbed into any of the core families. Like I said, Long kept her families fairly distinct. Each family was sort of its own little world, and her vision of Springfield was about all these little worlds colliding. At least this is how I see her work on the show and why it was so influential.

21 minutes ago, victoria foxton said:

MD's Alex was a buffoonish characture .

Yes, Marj's version was horrible in almost every sense of the word.

Re: the beginning of Pam Long's second stint...I am hoping the guy uploading episodes on YouTube posts the stuff from Long's very first week back. There's a very memorable episode I've never forgotten. Some gala or benefit is going on at the country club. Reva and Josh have broken up and had a massive fight. She shows up at the club dance in a flaming red dress. It was like Bette Davis wearing the red dress to the ball in JEZEBEL which I'm sure must have inspired Long.

Anyway the episode ends with Reva being left devasted by Josh yet again, being told by him things are over forever. She winds up on the floor. I don't remember if she was drinking or someone pushed her. But Josh is too angry to care anymore. And Alan comes up and offers her his hand and lifts her back up on her feet. It was a classic episode.

I probably have a few details wrong but I certainly remember the dress and Alan reaching out to Reva at the end. The increase in quality was automatic. At that time I was a teen who read comings and goings in Soap Opera Digest and was just beginning to pay close attention to the writers. But I knew watching that week of episodes someone was now in charge who understood the main characters. And that things were back on track.

Today when new head writers come in, or former head writers return, they typically have to finish off inherited plots and gradually reset the show which might take anywhere from three to six months. But leading up to that summer in 1987 the show had become so bad that Long came right in and somehow fixed it overnight. Literally within five episodes, by Friday at the end of her first week, she had turned it around. She basically ignored everything that had been done by the other writers in her absence. In all my years of soap watching I've never seen a bad show turn around so quickly and become great again within one week's time. But that was Pam Long, she was brilliant.

1 minute ago, robbwolff said:

 

I never cared for the character of Jackson Freemont. I imagine they may have kept him around in hopes of bringing back Beth. Jackson was ultimately dropped from the show sometime in 1988 -- before Beth returned.

I thought he turned up again later in a recurring capacity. But yeah, he was a dud. He was what I call a one-storyline character. After his initial story ended he should have been axed. I always suspected they kept him on in the hopes of using him to lure Liz Taylor to do another soap cameo (she'd been on GH earlier in the decade). Wilding later had a short-term role on Dallas, playing some art gallery owner involved in a scheme to bilk Howard Keel's character out of a fortune. He usually played smarmy characters.

5 minutes ago, victoria foxton said:

Thanks for all the info. I only started watching GL in 1990. 

So at least you saw the last two years of Beverlee's run as Alex. Marj Dusay, good in other roles, was an inferior recast (in my opinion) and didn't quite fit the character of Alexandra Spaulding. You also came in just after Roger and Holly had been reintroduced.

28 minutes ago, victoria foxton said:

The Paul Valere murder mystery is a real chore to watch. I do like the chemistry between Mindy & Rusty. Johnny & Roxie were blah. As were Chelsea & Phillip. Alex & HB was such a strange and random pairing. But i don't mind them. I do like Sarah and Rusty. Christine Valere was a dud. The actress that played Christine was really good on ATWT. Wasn't her fault that her GL role was LAME. I really liked Sheri Anderson on Days. But her GL was SO MEDIOCRE and  GENERIC. Lujack & Beth played out the same story. But were way more interesting than Roxie & Johnny. I like the original Dinah. But the writers didn't seem to know what to do with her. 1986 wasn't great. But i feel that first half of 1987 was even worse. 

Thanks. This is exactly some of the stuff I've been saying. Long's second stint starts in July 1987. She quickly ends the Alex-H.B. romance, with those two going back to being just friends. She doesn't keep Phillip with Chelsea...Chelsea ends up paired with Johnny, when Roxy has a nervous breakdown and is written off. Rusty ends up splitting with Mindy and gets involved with some woman named Rose McLaren whom he marries. Mindy winds up marrying a new Long creation, Dr. Will Jeffries. Phillip has business struggles with Alan and Alex, then finds out Beth may still be alive, which sets the stage for a recast in the form of Beth Chamberlin (because Judi Evans had signed on to do a role on DAYS, a character she still plays to this day).

The Valere murder story was pretty much over when Long returned. And before Anderson & Manetta depart they introduce Johnny's parents and sister Lacey, but Long quickly gets rid of Lacey. Jack and Lanie Bauer, Johnny's folks, are there for Johnny's cancer storyline but they're gone by 1988. Dinah's beau Cameron remains until 1988, but they're both written out by Long. So aside from Chelsea, who ends up becoming more of a supporting character and lasts until 1991, none of Anderson/Manetta's characters really stick around.

I remember Kim Zimmer won the Lead Actress Emmy in May or June 1987. The daytime Emmy awards were usually around that time of year. I think she won for some standalone episode where Reva has a fantasy and does a cabaret act with Warren Andrews at the Blue Orchid. It had nothing to do with the main storylines but showed Zimmer's versatility and skill as a performer. When she went to the stage to accept the award that year (right before Long was announced as returning to the head writer position) Zimmer cried and said the show hadn't been very good lately but promised it would soon get better. And of course it did.

38 minutes ago, Mitch said:

 

 

I think the Kyle actor chose to leave? Anyway, why phase out the Reardons when they had so much life left to them?? I would have had Quint die to let Nola have a new love, and Tony and Annabelle would be a new branch of the family (though they may have chosen to leave?)  I just don't get WHY the abrupt shift when the show hit number one Summer of 84 and then in the fall it all went to [!@#$%^&*]. 

 

Miss Sally was not a important character and Im glad she was gone for good. However, her death was a huge plot point as she had the info  that Josh was Marah's real father (Alan had it changed to that he could have a crack at Reva and she had his protection from Kyle) and during a heated exchange with Alex, she died. The plot was good (Alan hiding the truth, Reva needing his proection from Kyle who is finally shown to be a total assh*le, and Alex protecting Alan from his own crimes...) though a bit odd for Long to write as Alex did nothing to help Sally and then Alan had a gleam in his eye asking if Alex killed Sarah.  A big send off to a rather pointless character.

 

You forgot the Camp storyline had a "lake monster" (really a bad scooby doo villain trying to scare people away from Andoran  jewels) and was had an plot line where Billy was stranded with Roxie on an "island" ...so they were going to go there but luckily the writers got fired.  Though the highlight of the summer was Reva in a bathing suit snorkling and Zimmer was damn near at her peak then and looked great!

 

Yes I remember Reva's infamous snorkeling scene. I think those Camp Cayuga scenes were done on location either in upstate New York or somewhere in New Jersey. Way before the Peapack years at the end.

The Billy-Roxy pairing was ill-judged and fortunately did not go anywhere. Jordan Clarke soon vacated his role, probably fed up with the silly direction in which those hack writers had taken Billy. Roxy was then paired with Johnny Bauer.

I was a fan of Patricia Barry and thought she made Sally Gleason more multi-dimensional than the writers probably intended. A perfect example of a veteran TV actress who elevated the tosh scripts that came her way.

One hanger-on character from this period I didn't particularly like was record producer Jackson Fremont (Michael Wilding Jr). He had quite a bit to do in Lujack's music story. But when Vincent Irizarry left and Lujack was killed off, Jackson managed to stay on the show as someone who carried a torch for Beth, though Beth would reunite with Phillip played by John Bolger. I think they kept the Jackson Fremont character around because he was the son of Elizabeth Taylor. He remained on contract from 1985 to 1990. But Long didn't really use him much during her second stint as head writer. He was surplus to the requirements. In short, deadwood after his introductory storyline.

Terrell Anthony who played Rusty Shayne ended up writing a play about the world of soaps:

https://www.samuelfrench.com/p/1663/quiet-on-the-set

8 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

 

I do like that Long was adaptable and able to fix things that didn't go according to plan  (how she and Curlee managed to fix the zig zag the show went through during the writer strike is nothing short of amazing).

 

I always thought Roxie going crazy was out of character... she was spirited, determined and had a strong work ethic.  She was like Reva, but warmer and earnest.  It's a shame that the show never thought to bring her back (there was talk that Kim Zimmer tried to get the show to bring Roxie back in the late 90s, but the writers nixed that idea.. which is a shame since I would have loved to have seen how Roxie/Cassie would have interacted.

 

And while Hawk/Lillian didn't work out.. I did like that the show always mentioned their past relationship.. even in late 1995 when Hawk was trying to resume something with Lillian.. who was receptive till she found out that Hawk was trying to sabotage Annie/Josh's relationship and decked him.  However, I would have rather seen Lillian be single and content/happy with her life given the rough start she had in her life.. than being saddled with Buzz...but that is just me.

Sometimes one character is a seat warmer or replacement for another character. Whenever Phillip left for awhile, the focus would go to Alan's relationship with Alan Michael. The writers would just basically use the old Alan-Phillip plots for Alan & Alan Michael. When Phillip would come back it's usually because Alan-Michael was being written out, then we'd go back to the Alan & Phillip dynamic. Later when both Phillip and Alan Michael were off canvas, the writers repeated the formula with Alan & Gus Aitoro.

This same sort of thing happened with Roxy and Cassie. When the writers were unable to go back to the Reva-Roxy dynamic they introduced Cassie so they could have that sisterly type bond happening on camera with Reva-Cassie. Cassie became very popular, so popular, that there was no need to ever bring Roxy back. If Cassie had flopped right out of the gate, then probably we would have seen Roxy come back, or else yet another sister created for Reva. It was really a formula the writers used and there were replacement characters who kept the formula intact.

Another formula they had was Alexandra and her various sons. If it wasn't Alexandra and Lujack, then it was Alexandra and Nick. In between Lujack and Nick, there was Simon and though he was not her son, he still functioned in the same basic capacity.

When Jonathan was written out, they brought in a recast Shayne so that they could keep the formula going with Reva and a son.

Buzz and his children was another formula. When Harley left in the mid-90s, they brought in Lucy a replacement daughter for Buzz. I'm sure that if the show had continued beyond 2009, they would have aged Buzz's youngest son Rocky and brought him on to fill the void left by Coop who was killed off near the end.

10 hours ago, Khan said:

 

That's your opinion.  IMO, GL was watchable with and without Long.  However, that was because GL still had excellent sub-writers, such as Nancy Curlee and Stephen Demorest, who maintained some consistency throughout all the backstage turmoil.

I think Curlee is overrated and there have been many discussions about her. But I am glad you brought up Demorest. I was surprised when I saw a 1985 episode on YouTube where he was listed as one of the scriptwriters. I thought he had only worked on the show in the 90s. So apparently he started at the bottom and worked his way up to a headwriting position.

On the IMDb his credits, which are incomplete, indicate he wrote from GL from 1985 to 1993, though on the wiki page for GL's head writers he is listed as being head writer until January 1995. At any rate, he enjoyed one of the longest most continuous runs as a writer for the show during that nine or ten year period. Remarkable given all the backstage turmoil.

Nobody ever talks about Demorest and his contributions. I think he must've been one of Jill Phelps' favorites, because he was co headwriter (with a revolving door of other head writers) during the entire time Phelps was executive producer.

9 hours ago, j swift said:

One other random thought:  remember when Joe Lando played McCauley West in the summer of 1993?  I went back and read the articles.  The head of CBS, Jeff Segansky, asked Lando, who was on summer hiatus from Dr. Quinn, to take the role on GL.  Looking back was that just about money?  Was it counter-programming against GH and the return of Luke & Laura?  Why Joe Lando?  Do you think they went to other people first?

I think using Joe Lando in a summer arc was merely cross promotion, an experiment the network tried. Basically using his appearance on GL during that time to advertise Dr. Quinn. Lando had previous soap experience, having been on OLTL, so he could handle the format and the grind. Plus I am sure there was quite a financial incentive for him. And maybe the actor thought it would be fun to spend the summer in New York. The Macauley West character is not one fans typically remember from Guiding Light.

10 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

 

I could buy Roxie and Reva being excited about Hawk/Lillian.

 

With that said, I did notice once Long came back to the canvas that she did play up the bond that still existed between Hawk/Sarah.. while Lillian was always at work and the two never getting around to setting a date.  It looked like Long was setting up a Hawk/Sarah/Lillian triangle as a b or c plot.. but the writer strike happened.. and Lillian broke up with Hawk because of the apparent bond between Hawk/Sarah.

 

Sometimes a head-writer sees a character differently when they take over.  I noticed Roxie was more sub-dued and not quite as erratic as she was when Long wrote for her.  Was it Long, or the scabs, that had Roxie suffer a nervous breakdown over Johnny's cancer?

There had to be a bit of a triangle at first, because Long couldn't just come in and act like Hawk and Lillian hadn't developed a relationship. But if it had been meant to be a long-term triangle, Hawk would have married Lillian then realized his heart was still with Sarah. It seems clear to me that Long was just undoing what the interim head writers had messed up, by making it so Hawk would reunite with Sarah without any extra complications with Lillian. As a result of this Lillian never married again until the very end of the show's run when she hooked up with Buzz.

Long is the one who sent Roxy to a sanitarium. If I remember correctly the actress had quit and didn't plan to come back. So Long turned it into another story for Reva. It was mostly told from the point of view of Reva losing her sister. Of course later on in 1997 Estensten & Harmon Brown created a new sister for Reva in the form of Cassie Layne.

2 minutes ago, robbwolff said:

I believe Joseph Manetta was just an interim head writer for September/October 1986 while Sheri Anderson was still contractually obligated to Days. As for Sally, it was Pam Long who killed off the character around October 1987. I believe it was just as Sally was about to reveal Marah's parentage.

Did Sally really last that long? I don't think she had many appearances in 87. The only thing I remember with her after Kyle and Billy left was she hired Hawk to be her chauffeur, a plot that was recycled later under McTavish with Marj Dusay's Alexandra hiring Hawk in the same capacity. Sally's on screen death was pretty bad...certainly not one of Long's better moments as head writer.

Manetta was not an interim head writer. He and Anderson were married and this was to be a co-head writing job for them. He got things underway while she finished at DAYS then she joined him. The episodes on YouTube for January and March 87 have both their names listed as head writers.

43 minutes ago, Khan said:

Aside from Johnny Bauer's bout with cancer, I actually enjoyed watching GL during that period.

 

OTOH, anything from 1998 forward was a different story.

I don't think the cancer story started until late 87, under Long.

During Long's absence from February 86 to July 87, the show experienced a lot of behind-the-scenes turmoil and much of what made it on to the screen was unwatchable.

I think the biggest problem during those 16 months was that the subsequent headwriters didn't study her material, and they didn't have a real idea of how she conceived those characters (the Lewises and Shaynes in particular).

Earlier I watched another episode from January 87 where Hawk proposes to LIllian. We have scenes where Reva tries to set them up at Company so Hawk can pop the question. After Hawk finally does this, Reva and Roxy are both terribly excited about it. Now we know Long would never do that. When she designed the Shaynes, she had this carefully delineated backstory of how Hawk was a drifter but he was still emotionally tied to Sarah. Reva and Roxy would have known that Lillian was nothing more than a temporary diversion, a passing fancy for their pop, and that his heart really would always belong to their mama. So for Manetta and Anderson to do all this where Hawk's proposing and his daughters are egging it on, just seems very inconsistent with how the Shaynes were defined. Clearly they did not read the backstory Long created. So their presentation of these characters is off the mark. Their presentation of all the established characters seems very much off the mark.

In one of these episodes we have Alexandra whining to H.B. that he's excluding her in a business talk with Alan. The Alex that Pam Long created and wrote would never whine. She'd get right in there and show H.B. she's the brains behind Spaulding. Again Manetta/Anderson just do not know these characters like they should, and the results are abysmal.

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

When first brought on during Long's initial run, I think Warren was supposed to be a more "John Dixon" character butting heads with the respectable pillar families, in this case when he was brought on it was as antogonist to the Bauers (at that time Ed and Hillary were at Cedars, and Mo was the administrator.) I think he actually had a back story that he was in Med school with Ed??? But with the change of focus in Fall of 85 towards "big" storylines and Reva and the Lewises, he drifted into the  Spauldings and since he was not a convincing straight guy, was Alex's lachey.

 1986 really started that fall in 85 where there was an abrupt change in focus and the show became something entirely different.  Mike was written out, Hilary was killed, Ed was recast, Mo became a whiner, the Reardons were obscured...(Nola of all people did not get involved with the cabin mystery) The Four Musketers who just entered college the year before were thrown into adult jobs with Rick graduating med school overnight and Phillip as an exec. Mindy went nuts chasing after Kyle who she shot...and of course, Charita Bauer died so there was no Bert to keep the show grounded.

I feel 1985 was still a very strong year for the show. Pam Long was still guiding it. Yes, the focus was switching more to the Lewises and Spauldings, the Reardons were being phased out and the Shaynes were about to expand, but the Bauers were still central to the show even with a recast Ed. Hilary had been killed in the late summer of 1984. Mike's last episode was in November 1984 (though he did make some special appearances in 1997) and I believe Bert's last episode was in December 1984, because Charita became too ill to continue. I don't remember when Hope exited, I'm thinking it was in late 1983 or early 1984. But we still had Ed, Maureen and Rick to carry things forward in 1985 and 1986, plus Michelle would be added a short time later. Basically what happened with the Bauers is the producers just chopped off Mike's branch and made Ed's branch the continuing focus, which was later carried forward by Rick and his kids, since Michelle would marry into the Santoses.

It was the spring of 1986 when everything started to fall apart. Jeff Ryder was now in charge. He seemed to build everything around Kyle Sampson as the show's new leading man (I guess without Josh around they needed him to fill the void). Calla Matthews became prominent, along with her daughter Jessie and Jessie's boyfriend Simon (they had tremendous amounts of airtime). And the Shaynes were built up with the addition of Hawk then Rusty and finally Sarah would appear in 1987.

The summer of 1986 saw the pivotal return of Chris Bernau as Alan. This occurred around the time Ryder left and was replaced by Mary Ryan Munisteri. She only lasted three months as head writer, one of the shortest tenures ever. I remember she made Reva a summer camp counselor at a place called Camp Cayuga. The highlight if we can call it that was when someone tried to drown Reva in the lake at the camp. Horrible stuff. Before she was shown the door Munisteri introduced India's adopted daughter Dory and featured some faraway place called Andorra that India was either from or had visited, a dismal storyline, as well as Ross & Vanessa's long lost daughter Dinah.

After Munisteri left she was replaced by Joseph Manetta, whom I felt was even worse than Munisteri, if that was even possible. Manetta wielded a big axe and started chopping. He cut six characters immediately-- Claire Ramsey, Dr. Mark Jarrett, Kyle Sampson, Calla Matthews, Jessie Matthews and Simon Hall. The first four were gone by December, while Jessie & Simon lasted until the beginning of January. Also dropped from the cast at this time was John Bolger as Phillip. Grant Aleksander finished a role as a sleazy drug pusher on Capitol and he resumed playing Philip. I believe Aleksander was on both shows in November, because his exit on Capitol had been filmed in advance.

At the end of 1986 Jordan Clarke exited as Billy, but I think that was the actor's decision and they kept the door open for him to return later (the character was sent down to Venezuela to oversee H.B.'s wells). But they now had Robert Newman back in November as Josh. Patricia Barry was soon to leave as Sally Gleason, since she didn't have much to do with both her sons Kyle and Billy gone. There would be a ridiculous on screen death for the once vibrant Sally who slumped over and died in a chair. If I remember correctly she was sitting with H.B and Henry one day, started to feel sick out of the blue and croaked on the spot. That was the single worst episode I remember from this era. Barry was such a fine actress and deserved a much better send off. The character really shouldn't have been killed. She should've just left town to go off to wherever Kyle was now. Because of this error, Long was not able to use her later when Billy came home from Venezuela.

Meanwhile Manetta and his wife co-head writer Sheri Anderson flooded the canvas with newbies. They brought Chelsea Reardon on board, Christine Valere, Paul Valere, Cameron Stewart (a love interest for Dinah), some guy named Cat who tried to sabotage trucks at the Lewis construction site and Johnny's sister Lacey. With the exception of Chelsea, most of their characters did not catch on. The Valeres were pretty much done by the time Long returned in July 87. Long dropped Lacey. She did keep Cameron and introduced his father George (Joe Lambie) for a father-son abuse story but that arc finished in 88. Long was more interested in developing her new family the Coopers and getting the show back to basics with her favorite clans the Lewises and Spauldings.

My friend Mike posted some more Guiding Light episodes on YouTube from the end of 86 and beginning of 87. This is the Sheri Anderson/Joseph Manetta stuff. Not very good. One episode posted from January 87 seemed like the end for Simon & Jesse, and sure enough I see Rebecca Staab departed the cast around this time. But a wiki fan site says Shawn Thompson stuck around until April. Really? I thought they both exited together.

I also remembered they had been an off-screen couple. Their sex scenes in the episode from January 87 seem very real and intense. There is no mention of their real-life relationship on Staab's IMDb biography page. She is now with actor William De Vry. But on Thompson's IMDb biography page it says he and Staab were in a relationship for 12 years.

Going back to the recently posted episodes. This whole plot with India having a daughter (Dory) is cute but it doesn't really fit into the show. If they'd developed it more as comic relief, maybe, but as drama it sucks.

I was never crazy about Paige Turco as the original Dinah, but I do like the scenes between Ross and Dinah. And how this long lost love child is causing Ross and Vanessa to interact more.

The winter lodge episode from January 87 really seems to be pushing a bunch of new couples. Johhny & Roxy; Phillip & Chelsea; and of course Rusty & Mindy. I always thought Terrell Anthony was one of the show's most attractive guys in the late 80s. He and Grant Aleksander are significantly upping the show's pretty boy quota. Then we have hunky Robert Newman back on the scene as Josh (check out those new opening credits where Josh & Reva have that long sexy kiss). And James Goodwin gets to take his shirt off a lot as Johnny Bauer.

The younger women in the cast all seem to have the same hairstyles. Like they've all come back from a punk rock concert. The actress who plays Christine Valere (Arianne Munker) reminds me of a young Nadine. I think she previously appeared on As the World Turns. She didn't last long on GL...wasn't she was gone by the time Pam Long returned in the summer?

The story with Paul Valere is simply dreadful. You can see his murder coming a mile away. Anderson & Manetta were really churning out cliches. Even Henry's heart attack felt like a big cliche. At least William Roerick imbued his scenes with some dignity.

I consider these the worst periods of this classic soap:

Almost all of 1986 (Jeff Ryder slumped after Long's departure in February; Mary Ryan Munisteri had interesting ideas but there were continuity problems; Joseph Manetta was terrible, I consider him the show's worst head writer).

The first half of 1987 (Sheri Anderson, who had a strong track record at other soaps, joined her husband Joseph Manetta but things got worse not better.)

The first half of 1995 (Douglas Anderson's writing was slow and insipid, I consider him the second worst head writer after Manetta.)

End of 2003 to mid 2004 (Ellen Weston did not get the characters at all and she destroyed the momentum Millee Taggart created.)

Mid 2008 till the last episode in 2009 (Jill Lorie Hurst couldn't overcome the problems with the new production model. As Kim Zimmer says in her book "the show had become a hot mess.")