Skin

What was the reason why it was cancelled?

Really?

This was one of my favorite shows when I was in middle school, and I used to watch The N. But after the original characters who started the show moved on, so did I. I think the show started to show wear and tear somewhere around season 6 honestly characters like Darcy, Mia and Peter were the beginning of the end. I honestly remember being over this show when I was in high school and then never looked back. Ashley, Jimmy, Craig, Emma, Sean, Manny, Paige, etc. were the ones who really made this show work, and with out them it all fell apart.

I'm convinced the writers have a hard on for Ramsey. Like full blown.

Cogman seems to be selling this as a necessary evil for Sansa, not rape. I think this is yet another instance of the show not having any idea how scenes come across. I think someone at the show also believes we will only care about Sansa if she is raped, if she is made "strong" from this. I guess they had no real respect for the character if they think that's what it takes to make you strong.

This makes me nauseous, as I just see it as more Ramsey idealization by the writers who they have a hard on for. I don't understand how a person like this can exist and have fans, or worse have the writers and show runners root for someone like this. I was sickened when I heard the show runners say they loved the torture scenes between Ramsey and Theon, and now this just feels like more masturbatory fantasies for them.

I think I'm the only person on the planet who agrees with that. She knew she was going to have to have sex with him when she agreed to marry him. Baelish gave her an out, so I'm not sure what made that scene rape in people's minds. However, since it seems to be the universal perception, I'll have to accept that it's there.

I'm of two minds about this. While I agree she more or less consented to sex with him, that doesn't mean that she agreed to be physically tortured and brutalized during it. I would liken it to a BDSM relationship with the submissive being abused. Consent is given for sexual activity, but without context on what they are "willingly participating in." This is definitely in some form or way qualified as sexual abuse, and we have seen how much Ramsey delights in torturing people. Sansa doesn't have any frame of reference for how Ramsey likes torturing people. I don't believe Sansa would consent to being hurt in that way from what we know of the character.

Carl was completely on point on what was to happen to Sansa.

I really just need Ramsey to die. He's one of the most disgusting characters ever birthed from this series. It's hard because he has done so much that needs to be paid back to him, that death almost seems merciful. But I have a feeling he is going to get away with what he has done just like Jeoffery was able to do for multiple seasons, as that is the snake who he is.

Natalie Domer has a knack for playing these roles, Margery is in the same position Anne Boleyn was in at the end.

The situation with Jenji was a bit different, she was on a network that consistently keeps their shows after their sell by date so the fault can't be hers alone in that regard. Dexter, Shameless, Queer As Folk, and Nurse Jackie have also experienced similar levels of reduction in quality, just because they all went on for too long. I don't know what creator isn't going to continue a series the network still wants to green light. Head writers and show runners need to pay their rent too. Weeds also had similar out of the box success with critics that OITNB currently has. Weeds was pretty well regarded until around season 5.

Not sure about how this applies to the L Word, I didn't watch it, but Weeds was a major hit with critical communities in the beginning too.

I kind of wanted this to have a fifth season, but it would have come down to what would the show be about?

Something about this death just felt off, threw out the entire episode it just felt like it wasn't supposed to happen. As if it wasn't previously planned for and like it wasn't scoped or projected for this season at all. I could buy that this might have been the big game plan a season from now, but not now. The way it was written just felt off, and not in a tragic it's not fair sort of way like with Lexie and Mark in the 8th and 9th seasons nor in a kind of shock value moment like they did with George in season 5. These moments felt more justified storywise. This felt like something went on behind the scenes, it feels unfinished and almost vengeful in a way. That being said I don't know how I feel about the exit, Derek was diminished a lot in this season, so I feel the impact has been muted because of it. Derek hasn't been a big player on Grey's in such a long time that I can barely pinpoint a time where it felt like he had a larger storyline in play that wasn't in some way connected to Meredith. I think the last time Derek had a big storyline that made him a real force of the show was when he was Chief of General Surgery. Had this happened in season 6 I think it would have held a bigger impact in terms of longer term story, as it stands now having done it this late in the series does more harm than good in my opinion. Meredith feels more and more isolated and more and more islanded because of this. Pretty much all of her friends are gone, and now her family is fractured.

I will say I am beyond tired of Shondra killing off cast members. It got old seasons ago, and it just seems mean spirited at this point, especially in light of her giving Christina Yang an out that didn't require her leaving the show in a body bag. I'm going to need her to mature and keep business, business. She needs to learn to get along with her actors, and to forgive and forget if there is friction between her and her cast. I'm only here for April and Jackson at this point in the series though.

I think everything I've seen so far has potential to slowly burn into interest, but it's not quite there yet for me.

I know I don't care about the vagina wars between Cersei and Margery in any variation, but I do want to see what will come of the little factions in Kings Landing that Cersei is creating and trying to chancellor --she's weakening the power base where she lives and that will come back to haunt her, everything is going to blow up in her face and I think it will weaken the monarchy for all the current regents, not just herself. Cersei always had the benefit of her father standing tall behind her in all occasions, and now she has no such luxury. Margery and Cersei will be there own downfalls.

I've always liked Dany, but I wouldn't say 98% of what she had to do in seasons 2-the first half of 4 was very deep.

I do think they're making up for it now.

Maybe it's just me but I felt her entire season three storyline was the most captivating of the show that season. I got goosebumps every time that cinematic score played and she started speaking the gibberish-y language when she was freeing the slaves. Dany's always been my favorite character on the show, even though many seem to think her story isn't interesting I feel like she is the major chess piece on the board just waiting to be released on to the playing field.

I love the Sansa twist. She is truly the strongest character on the show because she never stops enduring, and just when you think things can't get worse for her they do. I have a feeling though she will find a way to make the Boltons pay, and it will be great to see her reaction to the new Theon. I am going to assume there will be a dead Bolton somewhere down the line.

I need Ramsey to die, he offends me on every level and I just need for him to suffer a horrible, horrific death.

I think Brienne's time will come, I think the point they are making is that her journey will come full circle later, but they need to build her up to being the girls salvation. Right now both of the Stark girls have denied her, and refused her help, her honor, journey and her ability to keep her promise to Cately. But there will probably come a time when Brienne will save them and justify her existence on the show and her capabilities as an honorable knight with each girl will come to fruition. Right now Brienne has nothing to offer them, what can she really keep them safe from? The Hound has a huge point last season, Arya doesn't need her and neither really does Sansa. But maybe there will come a time when they both will. I think they are leading up to this.

It's nice to have traction on Dany and Jon's story.

Couldn't care less about Cersei and her issues.

The black smoke monster killed Renly.

I literally bust out laughing when I saw this post. Only in Games Of Thrones can something so absurd exist, to where this has legitimately taken place, in story.

I've caught up on all of the four episodes that were leaked, I won't spoil anything, I'll just leave general thoughts, with specifics left out.

I am beyond tired of the Cersei and Margery, power plays. I just want Dany to come in dragons blazing and level all of Kings Landing just so all of this could be over. The Lannisters reached their story apex somewhere in the fourth season and the Tyrell's never felt that intimidating even at their best to re-energize interest in them, so I'm officially over them as of now. I'm just so thoroughly exhausted from all that's happening in the Kings Landing area, yet it gets the most focus and airtime -- when it's not deserved.

I hope season five will be Dany's season. She's kind of been a side note, in that she is so removed from everything that is happening, but that's really where I see the story going, and where I think the most interesting part of the show is. Meereen is such a hot bed of action, and it's interesting to see how she's going to deal with the inner conflicts that are at work there. They really could carve out a solid 30 minutes just with that storyline each episode, I would be content with that.

The wall storyline is always so dreadfully boring to me so what do the writers do? Bring in Milesandre, to make it even worse and even more tedious to sit threw. Stannis' storyline is probably one of the worst ones in the entire series -- in terms of both relatability and engagement, and I am just so confused as to why it's been stretched out over multiple seasons, it always struck me as at most a B/C plot at it's best back in season 2, so it's shocking to me to see it gain even more prominence this late in the series. It's also shocking how little I care about Stannis and his storyline. Is anyone else disgusted by the fact that his wife, is so openly supportive of his relationship with his mistress, Milesandre? and how deplorable she is to their own daughter? It just makes me want to throw all three of them off a cliff, and I find all three of them unbearable unlikable. The whole thing with Milesendre and Stannis is so vile and revolting, and them together is one of the worst things about the show along with the Theron torture storyline, which also offends me to my core.

Arya and Tyrion feel influx and a bit directionless, but I guess they will find there places, but I feel like the show is wasting time with them, along with Brienne(?), the woman knight. All three could be utilized a bit better. They could be more productive about what they are showing us, as viewers. I'm looking forward to Sansa's upcoming story, so there's that. But just very little being started and the show still feels a bit in a holding pattern in some places.

I'm just waiting for Dany and Jon Snow to meet each other and be together at this point. The other stuff is nice, but that is really what I am looking forward to. I'm a huge fan of Kit and Clarke.

Like it, don't like it, I don't care, but don't tell me I'm anti-intellectual if I do, Skin.

Interesting, I didn't say that I consider you anti-intellectual for this reason. Just that there seems to be a devaluation of an opinion because it's not positive.

I don't think just because someone enjoys the show, they're yes-manning. That's actually quite short sighted and judgmental.

This wasn't what I was speaking about in terms of yes manning, enjoy what you enjoy, I would say absolute refusal to accept criticism and divergent forms of thought is basically the quintessential definition of yes manning, and is exactly what I would define as being short-sighted and not productive.

Carl,

That Ramsey story is horrifying and the entire storyline with Theron is disgusting in all facets, and to hear the show runners say how much they love Ramsey, and get so much pleasure out of torturing Theron just makes my skin crawl. It's the most offensive story they've ever executed as far as I am concerned.

I'm sure they're all fawning over the new season. Its just amazing how because its amassed such a large audience it inherently cannot be critqued fairly by anyone. I have yet to see a single reputable site actually admit that the show isn't Gods gift to Earth or that it has flaws.

Yeah, I've noticed this happening a lot with cable television lately. There is a hive mind that seems to culminate with critics, and after a certain point it becomes difficult to go against it, as it becomes so ingrained in the shows perception by the public. I want to say it's refreshing to see your point of view, even if I don't think of the issues in the same way you do. I've never read the books so it's not an issue to me, but I hope you will continue to speak out on what you perceive to be failings, because I think there needs to be diverse views on subjects like this. There are so many yes manning everything, and saying everything is excellent and when that happens greater understandings and different schools of thought are lost in this need to herald something just for the sake of it and that's just as if not more detrimental than a substantive critique of real issues and problems. I think more people should be open to that, as you explain in your post here.

but Monica/Chloe Webb feels like the most tragic character on the show to me so much so that I can barely look sometimes.

Agreed. It's just painfully clear that the lights are on but no ones home. It's really disturbing to watch her performance, not because it's bad, but because of how unsettling it all is.

I'd say the husband is the type of guy who enjoys being cuckolded. It's rare, but it exists. One of the few sexual fetishes that gives me the creeps tbh, but to each their own.

Yeah, I pegged that from him as soon as he asked Lip if he was wearing his tie.

I think season 2 is recognized as being the superior season by critics. There was a ton of love for the series during the last few episodes, so I think there was nearly universal critical support for the second season. Most of the criticism (i.e. Patrick is unlikable, the show is boring) stemmed from the initial first season. Most felt that a lot of the major criticisms of Looking were dealt with in the second season for better or worse outside of the Patrick issues.

Season two is my personal favorite, I felt there were more interesting re-watch material this season (2x01, 2x03, 2x08) than anything that was created the first season.

So now Glee is over and I think we have to give it its due in that the first two seasons the show was well done and really hit a dramatic height with the Kurt/Karofsky story. The coming of Blaine was a huge moment for Glee and turned Darren Criss into maybe the biggest star on the show? Perhaps. The later years the show dipped in quality. I forget what was happening in season 3. West Side Story I guess, and Quinn in the car accident. Season 4 is a bit of a blur. I am not sure what happened in season 4. Was that the split season? Then Season 5 was strict;y NY? I honestly have no idea what happened last year either. Finn died and everyone came home and nothing else stands out.

If I had to pick my favorite performance of the entire series I guess I have to go with The Warblers at The Gap maybe, or when they sang Bills Bills Bills. I have watched some of the earlier episodes on Netflix, and stuff like the football team dancing to Beyonce is worth going back to check out.

Glee hit it's commercial and influential peak probably around the second season, at around season four it just became increasingly trendy and focused too much on other popular properties in a bid for notoriety before just devolving into the Rachel Berry show, which it always was, but at least before it had more to say. Trying to find a dramatic height of the show is difficult, because it's last few seasons feel so muddled but it's self acceptance message was pretty much the bread and butter of the series, along with finding love, so the "Born This Way" and "Furt" episodes seems to be right in the heart of the series and what the series kind of represented. As to the biggest star of the show I feel that's Lea Michelle, she's been the pet of Ryan Murphy for so long that it's hard to deny, and she is the one who got most of the nominations, sang most of the songs, the most airtime and seems to be argued as the most talented.

Is this show just made up as it goes along? I've seen bits and pieces and I get that feeling.

The UK Shameless was the same way - that's one of the reasons I lost interest. The main difference is they had hot guys who got naked a lot.

This season feels that way. Specifically with Frank and Fiona's stories this season and the introduction of Sammi as this primary antagonist, feels a bit manufactured and unbelievable. The side characters feel directionless as well specifically Kevin, Veronica and Svetlana. The others more or less have a structure to them, even if I don't find them particularly well developed.

This episode was heart breaking.

Episodes 11 & 12 were a lot stronger than 8, 9 and 10.

The pacing point has been spoken about already, so I won't belabor that point any further. I will say this is the first time that I have ever really liked Lucious in the entire series, and literally all it took was for the writers to inject something into his character that was at least semi-understandable, nearly human and relatable. Hearing him say that his treatment of Jamal was due to fear and his own internal struggle with his innocence and insecurities alleviated and illuminated a lot about him, and the parallel of Dwight Walker and Jamal was a nice metaphor. His fear that Dwight/Jamal couldn't exist in the world and needed to be changed was something that one could at least logically follow. Where the hell was that all season?

The flashbacks and everything was a really nice touch, it highlighted the journeys of Cookie and Jamal particularly very well, but the writers have always done very well in highlighting these characters. That being said I am tired of the Jamal character at this point of the story, and I think it would do them well to limit his centrality to the show over the course of next season. The character work and focus for Cookie, Jamal and Lucious in these episodes ere at a completely different level than the rest of the cast. They really need to start spreading the wealth. Jamal in particular has been strongly defined as a character but it's to the detriment of others two brothers. He's overexposed and Andre and Hakeem are starting to feel like side characters and foils, they really need to expand the other two brothers, asap. I do wonder if they will have Jamal go over to the dark side, next season and align with Lucious or if they will try to have him mediate on both sides.

Not convinced on this quartet, like at all, I don't buy it, these relationships and alliances felt contrived and forced to near incredulity, I can buy Andre's deference -- that's been the big picture from the beginning, but the Hakeem and Anika connection feels both gratuitous and unrealistic, and having a four minute cat fight doesn't change the sheer ridiculousness of having Cookie work with Anika. The audience isn't there yet.

Vernon, like Bunky has felt like such an after thought on this show that they feel like plot contrivances to push things along. I don't understand why Andre and Rhonda won't go to the police, when it's obvious it was self defense. That kind of stupidity isn't justified primarily because we've seen how intelligent Andre and Rhonda are in there schemes, corporate espionage and general manipulation and mind tricks. That said I am glad Rhonda took Andre out of the church storyline and pushed Jennifer Hudson off screen, that storyline needed to die with the quickest death possible. I am really hoping the fatherhood storyline will give the character of Andre some depth and real character opportunity in the second season. Rhonda's been a very unappreciated supporting character this season right along with Becky to me.

I am glad Malcolm is taken out of the Cookie storyline, I don't even know why that proposed story tangent wasn't nixed early in the writers room. Cookie doesn't need an extraneous love interests that don't mean anything in the larger context of her narrative story. she really doesn't need a man in her storyline at all, especially one who seems inconsequential as Malcolm was. She works better as a walking tornado that disrupts Lucious life, excels in business practices, street and other wise and is there for her children.

This is another point where I feel stronger character work is needed. I can fill in the blanks more or less if I have solid characterization down and say without a doubt "oh yeah Cookie would do this", but in other cases where that isn't inherent there needs to be better build up. That was pretty much where the quartet fell apart for me. Hopefully Empire can make up for it next season, cause even now I don't buy it.

Those international markets like Great Britain, that got in on it early, Empire has already become highly successful.

I am surprised that the UK acquired it so quickly and is now airing it. I lived in London for an extended period before and it usually takes them months to get series and air them. I know I was waiting to watch some Fox and CW shows there and they were 6-7 months behind in airings. Doing a quick wiki search it seems like it premiered in Australia to weaker ratings but a good demo, and Canada's airing it now too, so it seems to be making its way.

Empire is not exactly a perfect TV show, but nonetheless I think you'll find we're all still a lot more interested in watching it than we are in talking about you and the validity of your opinions.

Again you are not addressing any of the points that I have made in regards to my post you were so aggrieved by, and started this entire discussion. So I don't understand the purpose of this dialogue you've continued to engage in, and seemed to have made personal. If you disagree with what I have posted than say so, this grudge or whatever you have against me is pointless to central part of this thread -- Empire. So if you are just going to make snide remarks and grumble about my postings instead of entering a dialogue about them so be it, that's your issue. This isn't a fan board and your misnomer like comments against me won't change the content of what I have written, or the fact that all of my criticisms have been constructive. All of my points have been made and expressed to push the dialogue about the show further, your hypersensitivity to any perceived criticism you find unfavorable to the show however, clearly isn't and your instance that any person's criticism against the show can be wiped away with a dressed up version of "you aren't a big enough fan" is a pathetic tactic in any conversation, regardless of the content being spoken about. So if you are finished derailing this particular thread, I'd like to get back to the conversation at hand, and in the future if you disagree with my arguments please address them, instead of complaining that I am not positive enough regarding the show in your personal view. Because as I addressed above, I don't care that I don't satisfy your fan quota theory.

I agree with this completely, which is why I think once he's gone, the show will have tons of story to tell. Who are these characters without Lucious? How will they interact? Will they even still exist as a family unit? What role will Cookie play in all of that? This isn't PLL, where it's like, "Okay, we know who A is. Now what?" There is huge potential for a long run long after Lucious is gone.

I think we are mostly coming from the same point of view. I am just saying at this point the writers haven't started laying the ground work for that yet. I think that is something they should be preparing for season 2.

I can (and have) been critical without focusing on the negative to prop up your point of view. You want to do all this work to justify the attitude you had towards the show before you watched it - fine, that's your business. But it's not my problem and I'm not going to engage with it, because I feel that all that energy and prose is being expended towards something intellectually dishonest, which is finding a roundabout path to 'I was right all along.'

Yeah none of that is happening. A lot of the problems and issues that I've had while viewing the show have been echoed by other posters, so obviously my issues with the show have been the same issues found in other viewers -- which probably means even outside of my voice there is credence within them for the general audience. I've been candid with what stories have been working on the show (Cookie's introduction, Jamal's coming out), what has been under developed (Andre's entire story), and what stories have been the most meandering (All of Hakeem's). All of my arguments and issues have solid bases, I was more interested in seeing what your core issue was in regards to them, but they have yet to materialize. Outside of that I really don't care about your theory that I am being "dishonest" with how I am viewing the show, and what you believe my personal opinion about the show to be. My opinion is right here for everyone to read. If I didn't feel it, I wouldn't write it, as simple as that.