GL95

So I don’t think I’ve seen it anywhere-what’s the full story of Alan going to jail? They never really give it all out in the exposition when he comes back outside of AM being involved somehow. It was a bit strange that Alan’s incarceration didn’t seem to affect his standing though at the time I didn’t realize the nonsensical nature of the Spaulding board haha Also how much interaction does adult AM actually have with Alan pre-jail onscreen? I hadn’t realized with my first introduction to Alan being RR’s taking over that it was seemingly pretty limited and most everything they talk about backstory wise it retconned from faux SORAS childhood. (There needs to be a term for these retconned childhoods of SORAS kids because it really makes your head explode when they drop those stories and you think about the timeline. )

I'm in late August 1992 and Bev is at her tail end. I'm trying to decide if I want to skip forward a month or so to get past this period where a lot of the table is being set but knowing mostly what's coming it's a bit of a slog to view. I'm a bit curious how this Eleni/Frank/AM story was received at the time but I find how they decided to frame it both fairly unpleasant to watch while also boring at the same time somehow. I feel like the more interesting choice would've been to go ahead and have AM choose Eleni over Spaulding like he was going to pre-Nick reveal to give some actual stakes to the Musette reappearance/reveal where maybe there was a chance for the marriage but for this initial deceit. I feel like the desire to keep Frank/Eleni "good" versus AM being clearly "bad" as far as toeing the adultery/affair line wins out over interesting story. (In fairness I think knowing what happens later makes this story annoying to watch because Frank takes about 30 seconds of supposed neglect before he starts trusting Julie over Eleni, but I do't understand having this story not really be a triangle for a pretty long period. They are also spending a lot of time on Fletcher/Vanessa/Billy (the show is still trying to convince us Vanessa actually wants to be with Fletcher over Billy-this is just before Nadine's "pregnancy") and Julie/Dylan Innocent Young Love that is not exactly thrilling viewing. I just had to watch Vanessa grovel to Fletcher about how she really wants to be with him and definitely knows she doesn't want to marry Billy again (haha). Also had another Zas appreciation moment: They had that bad Roger backup player in for an episode that had plotting with both Jenna and AM and wow those expository scheming scenes are boring when an actor can't convey well that they're not saying what they really mean. What's great about Zas is the audience knows when he's conning someone but he's so charming that you don't think anyone who believes him is a moron. (here's usually also JUST enough truth/insight into the other character mixed in with Roger that you can see how he's so convincing, but you can have the same lines with a different actor and it just falls flat. Before I discovered the vault I had decided to start my revisit/gap filling in fall 1993 and went through 1997 before going back to July 1990, so I know there's some stuff coming up I want to watch where the ground is being set: The Lillian/Ed affair/fallout(I'm post blackout kiss with Ed just letting this build for an amazingly long period), Crazy Eve, finally figuring out Gilly's bad history with Roger (not asking-I'm still watching), Bridget in the attic, etc. I'm interested in Buzz's original arrival and was actually fairly surprised how close together Buzz/Lucy showed up because there was already surprisingly little tension with Buzz by the time I picked up in fall 1993. Nadine is objectively terrible throughout my 1990-1992 viewing, but how Frank and Harley throw her briefer period of leaving in her face constantly versus how it seems like water under the bridge pretty fast for Buzz making them think he was dead for most of their lives is something else.

I guess in his return it starts out that way a bit with the Brent scheming, but it’s basically that AM makes him feel pushed aside so he decides to bring him down within a week and of course ignoring the initial rape accusation but is in too deep to back out. I do think that plot is where the acting comes in because I think showing more vulnerability as far as feeling cast off or being at all convincing that he actually cares about AM. There’s no real feeling of remorse/panic coming from RR as he sinks further into being stuck with Brent. Zas was so good at projecting that affection Roger feels for his kids that even when he’s royally screwing them over a part of you doesn’t want the bond severed, whereas you’re basically rooting for AM/Phillip each time they try to break away.

The writing of course did him no favors-they didn’t make Alan an underdog even for a minute once he’s released from prison. If he’d faced much of any friction getting his standing back maybe there’s a little vulnerability there? I think one mistake too they make with the worst villains is making revenge the primary motive more than actually wanting something. Someone getting desperate to get something they want badly is so much more compelling than hurting someone who wronged you. Alan is so often just trying to hurt people without really getting much from it. At least with Roger there’s generally a clear goal pre-1996 or so.

I commented above and somehow missed your post that said almost exactly the same thing as I did. Twins! Which of us has to be the Nick? I’m not really opposed to Marj as Alex even full-time if there’s no RR Alan. The Alex/Alan dynamic was unpleasant to watch-it wasn’t even ever fun. Alex was creepy as hell about Alan’ love life, but also she would back Alan no matter what he did even whem it came to siding against Nick. But having one elder Spaulding on the canvas like Henry/HB were would be fine. The show for an extended period having RR, Marj, Jay Hammer, Kim Zimmer AND Justin Deas was a much more OTT acting style and constantly in each other’s plots was a complete tonal shift from how things are where I am in 1992. (Though I am very ready for no more Mallett who I have not warmed up to and Julie should’ve turned psycho much, much earlier rather than be in long boring relationships.)

I think fully going next generation Spaulding could’ve worked too especially if you had Rick/GA on at the same time and even Toby’s Amanda and have Roger be the one stirring the pot who was always dipping in and out of Spaulding. If you wanted to close it out and briefly have RR, do the Brent/Marian plot but have Brent kill Alan when Alan was delivering the ransom money. Alan is a little redeemed in AM’s eyes when he dies and now enter in Phillip after Alan dies saving AM. I like with good actors a real AM/Phillip standoff is two characters in the gray who ultimately would benefit from coming together but the distrust and pride instilled in them by Alex/Alan makes it difficult which is infinitely more interesting than Alan screwing over his kids for years. The spectre of Alan is better than RR’s Alan in that dynamic. He was very diplomatic about it in his Locher Room interview, but Rick made a comment about RR playing Alan differently than he would (basically the sociopathic no remorse element with no vulnerability unlike Zas who always played Roger with vulnerability mixed in), but that he learned to respect his theater rigidness that was so different from Rick’s style. I got the impression that RR was far from his favorite scene partner (people here won’t like it but I got the impression he did enjoy the unpredictability of Justin Deas but I think you can see it onscreen-Rick always played Buzz scenes with a hint of this guy is full of it bemusement) and I do wonder if it’s part of why he left and stayed gone.

It’s funny that in the early 90s pre-Sid you had reformed Ross and Frank as the PI who repeatedly couldn’t take on business because people he was close to ended up being responsible. The lack of sleaze led to some dead end reveals. I actually feel like David/Blake ditching Frank would’ve come up with a better business model.

That picture makes me chuckle a bit because adult AM in all iterations actually looks like the Alan his mom married. I swear when they cast Ron Raines they thought Phillip was the biological child and not AM (mainly that RR has a much more similar build to GA than Rick or any subsequent AM).

I hate when the past is just forgotten like that because it also takes complexity away that’s not even reflecting poorly on the reformed character. Like in the scenes before they sleep together where Ross feels empathetic to her because of how AM is treating her a “I know from experience when you’re obsessed with power you don’t care who you hurt in the moment, and he’s not going to change until he gives that up.” It also would bring his past into the Senate race and how he had been someone to chase power at all costs so this was all something of an internal battle. I feel like Blake/Ross are actually deeper if Ross forgiving Blake’s past sins because he used to be like her was more explicit versus St Ross gives it all up for Blake/love. It makes me chuckle a bit thinking to the brief period where Ross tries to beat Roger at his own game and it’s definitely framed like Ross had never been underhanded before.

It’s funny that not even knowing Ross’s backstory I never really loved the Blake/Ross dynamic because there was always this underlying messaging that Ross was Good and Blake was Bad, and that she should be grateful he was willing to be with her. It’s an unpopular opinion but I don’t love Ross is general though I totally get why JVD’s charm makes him popular. I just find him overly sanctimonious and hypocritical as a character-I’m at where Holly finds out about Blake/Ross and I really don’t see much difference between how AM led Blake on to help his business interests when he knew she wanted him and how Ross was with Holly during the campaign especially at the end where he definitely knows he’s using Holly for public perception and giving her hope by bidding on her in the auction. But Ross pretty much blasts Holly immediately for thinking she had a reason to be angry-he does the same thing to Blake when she was worried about Amanda, turning the tables on her telling her he was mad at Blake for not trusting him. Blake does a bunch of stupid, impulsive things then lies but Ross does his part to set up the dynamic where Blake spirals when they fight because her entire self-worth is based on his approval and he likes it that way. I had just assumed Ross was always a white knight do gooder attorney who just temporarily got sucked in by money/power when he worked for Alex given how Ross interacts with other characters/speaks about them.

From my 90s viewing I’d assumed that Ross/Vanessa were just a thing when they were super young and Van had Dinah-it’s funny how Ross’s backstory is totally different than I’d assumed. I’m in the middle of Ross’s Senate campaign and one thing knowing more show history is that it’s pretty funny for Ross to have used Holly as his “respectable woman” to help with the campaign. You’d think it would be a pretty big news story that Ross had an on and off relationship with the rape victim of one of his former clients. There’s also a line early with Ross/Blake they Ross says he’s spent his life doing this in a way to be 100% scandal free and it seems he forgot a few years in there. What is the more or less full story of Ross/Vanessa? Outside of a general talk of history and Dinah there’s few specifics referenced in any period I’ve watched.

The SORASing really breaks my brain when thinking about whether Blake/AM would’ve interacted as cousins, but it seems likely not? I do think it’s funny the show implies both Blake/AM maintaining a close relationship with Ed/being part of the larger Bauer clan in the early 90s when the Bauer were decimated but at the same time downplaying them growing up as part of the same family. But when Rick was gone they had to make AM/Blake like they were Ed’s kids to play up Ed as patriarch. Awhile back I watched the episode with AM being shot by Blake by accident, and they had to decide if the Brilliant Daniel St Jean would perform surgery. Ed called Hope who abdicated to Ed/Alex to decide which I found a bit amusing. (This was played up for drama very briefly but Alex deferred to Ed’s judgment though Ed pretty clearly didn’t want to decide knowing how that would go with Spauldings if things went wrong haha).

I think another fun bit of intrigue could be a non-romantic triangle between AM/Roger/Blake. She would start out ecstatic to be working with them and being integral to keeping things from imploding, but if AM starts to become the son Roger never had (since Hart never had any interest in business and was pretty consistent about it unlike Nick/Phillip) I could see Blake start scheming to keep her positioning with them both. Also if Bloss are together you have the spectre of AM always there plus I could see Roger trying to bring AM/Blake together. As I joked before this ends with Ross/AM fathered twins. We now have our stage set for the younger generation with the AM progeny being Roger’s favored grandson and Ross’s being the also ran in a flip of Phillip/AM’s roles in the Spaulding hierarchy. In 2005 when everyone is SORASed Lizzie is in a creepy but not true incest relationship with AM’s kid (but of course it initially starts because she’s working with Alan to lure AM’s son over to the Spauldings.)

If you don’t kill Maureen it also adds intrigue. Have her jump ship to Thorpe Enterprises when Vanessa goes back to Lewis Oil.

You probably need one Blake/AM slip up leading to a kid (a second twin perhaps haha) to tie Roger/AM if Blake/AM (or Blam haha) don’t reunite in this scenario so AM is at least the father of a Thorpe grandchild (which I feel like not having a Thorpe/Spaulding progeny was a wasted opportunity that was right there). So it’s funny I have seen the Gilly/AM scenes but through Lucy/Alan Michael clips on YouTube before I discovered full eps existed, but I had zero context about who Gilly was outside of working at WSPR. (I still am not up to whatever Roger’s betrayal of Gilly was in my viewing but feel like it’s coming soon with some hints.) One thing about Roger is for someone who plays the long game, he completely burns bridges for short term gains that cuts off potential allies. (Of course some of it is how Roger is really good at lying to himself and trying to use his truth to manipulate people-he keeps trying it with AM over making AM the patsy in the embezzlement scheme, trying to convince AM that he never had any intention of hurting AM etc.)

I was mostly joking about a Blake/Nick hookup but I do enjoy their scenes together. What’s funny knowing mostly what happens in the future with Nick is that AM basically accurately predicts everything that happens with Alex/Nick and the company outside of Nick ultimately bailing after getting the presidency. Yeah, I like AM/Blake’s dynamic at this point. They keep trying to manipulate the other but can’t really get one over on the other, but also ultimately get each other’s motivations. I don’t know if it’s because of Blake, but I like AM/Roger scenes and it’s interesting how Roger understands AM so much more than Alex does. I’m guessing it’s both Bloss taking off and Bev suddenly leaving, but I really do wish they’d tried out for a period AM jumping to Roger’s company like they’re strongly hinting at. (It could’ve been interesting even if you kept Bloss because it would’ve been insta-conflict for Ross if AM is part of the family business.) I also think AM/Holly have an interesting dynamic/ chemistry. Rick has such a different energy from Marj/RR and once Bev leaves I feel like AM actually fits in better with the Thorpe side of things.

Thanks! I definitely need the lesson. For some reason “Mindy’s mom” as a spouse of Billy’s made me chuckle.

I just saw another Hope name drop in 1992-AM when talking to Eleni about his insecurities about always being #2 mentions being second to the NY social scene with his mom. I know SS isn’t around much longer at this point but I like Nick best at this point when Blake is calling him out. They have an interesting chemistry-and really Blake needed to sleep with Nick to complete her run through the Spaulding men.

Yeah, I knew Ed and Hope were both alcoholics. That’s why it struck me when they had Ed say something to him about dealing with emotions through drinking. It felt pretty pointed to have Ed say it in a situation where AM didn’t actually get drunk. In this scene they really have him acting like an alcoholic. Roger comes to try to lay the groundwork to have him join the Thorpe empire (Roger thinks Blake still wants AM and AM/Blake as a power couple in the family kingdom fits Roger’s dream image really well) and AM has had a whole lot to drink but talks about handling it well and does have his wits about him more than he should. He lashes out at Eleni when he gets home in a way that feels like they’re planting seeds-some of it is pretty clearly that being raised to be a Spaulding left him with zero ability to be vulnerable or deal with emotions, but AM not getting hit with a combination of the Spaulding/Bauer curse really is a waste. An AM addiction plot could’ve brought in a lot of different characters. I can just see the rock bottom being lashing out at a very vulnerable Michelle post Maureen’s death, and Ed not having the bandwidth to help AM calls Hope. The Spaulding side trying to actually show love/help that’s not about business or internal power struggles and AM’s parade of exes who eventually all have a soft spot for him. The first iteration with Lucy ends with him getting wasted and saying cruel things to her (and he’s blackout drunk with her on a different occasion). Right after is when he goes back to wanting Eleni ( I believe getting very drunk when that starts), and the entire Eleni arc is more like an addiction arc than a love story on his end. There also would be an interesting backdrop for an addiction story at that time with Billy shooting Roger in a drunken rage. It really feels like it was heading that way when they pivoted-best reason I can think of is they saw a Nick/AM face off as a Hail Mary to make Nick catch on. Them making them foils who basically switch places was so uninteresting with no real investment in Nick and recasts of Alan/Alex and Mindy.

I’m in July 1992 when A-M is drinking himself into oblivion after he learns Nick is Alexandra’s son, and watching a lot of early 90s eps in close succession, I feel like they were setting the table for an A-M addiction story at some point. I can’t remember what triggered it, but in a different episode A-M swigs a drink in anger and Ed says something about that not helping. They have him pretty regularly cope with his emotions with booze and get really drunk several times. I could see the thought of planning Hope to come back for that then it getting scratched. I could see that last go round with Eleni while the terrible Jenna lotion story was happening being there instead since he’s spiraling at this point. Then them mentioning Hope in rehab not long after when he’s looking for Alan-an addiction story seems so much more interesting than the roaming the beach/unconscious at Tangie’s place arc. It’s funny because if they wanted Tangie in his arc she was a bar tender so it would’ve been easy. Watching the Eleni/Frank/A-M triangle for the first time, it's sort of wild that not only did they need to import someone for Frank D., they dragged on a triangle with an obvious conclusion that's just a slow walk of doom for A-M from the get-go (largely of his own making to be sure) because the only way to make Frank interesting even with Melina K was to put him a triangle that won't end. They had no idea what to do with Frank/Eleni with A-M not in the picture. They sort of have them as Ed and Maureen Lite, but then the Buzz of it all keeps that from really working for Frank (though Eleni is a random confidante for all kinds of people post recast since she has no internal life outside of catering post-recast). They also had Lucy doing absolutely nothing for months other than going on blind dates-Lucy being involved in helping him as a friend (maybe with Blake who would know the family history?) then Ed brings in Hope who learned a lot in that Swiss rehab. (I do think Hope as an alcoholic would give a bit of a natural excuse to make her seem older and explain how she seems closer in age to Alan.)

It’s a bit weird because they SORAS kids all the time where the original actor is still on the show or just ignore actors’ ages if they play older. Rick had two actresses around his age play up in years who worked closely with him in Toby’s Amanda and SS’s Blake (SS being 23 when she left the show blows my mind-even with Rick, SS’s Blake just seems so much older but ironically they started styling her younger late in her tenure I think to play up the Ross age gap). I feel like a late 30s actress with some gravitas could pretty easily pass as Rick/AM’s mom in soap world in the early 90s.

It’s always sort of crazy that the 20-something generation on the show at that point had parents who were so bad that Buzz raising Lucy as a homeless grifter always on the run is seen as the height of fraternal stability. Half the “fun” stories she tells are objectively horrifying, especially when you consider that Buzz is not uniting her with his other family mostly out of cowardice.

Lucy’s mom bailed at some point when Lucy was really young, so Lucy didn’t ever know her. Nadine pretty early on became something of a surrogate mom to Lucy. I for the first time have been watching the pre-ditzy diner owner version of Nadine and Nadine/Harley, and Nadine taking in Lucy pretty fast makes a bit more sense because she gets that ideal image of a mother/daughter relationship without all the baggage of an actual mother/daughter relationship. Though it’s funny when Nadine first sees a picture of Lucy before she comes to town, Buzz tells her it’s the daughter a of a war buddy he’d raised. Then when Lucy shows up, Nadine is actually pretty horrible to her telling her that Buzz has already done enough for her and he’s not her real father even if she thinks of him that way. Since at this point Nadine wants Buzz back, she changes her tune instantly when she finds out Lucy is Buzz’s biological daughter. They never show Lucy being particularly curious about her mom, though she and A-M are a bit of a matched set on not speaking about their moms. Watching starting in 1990 with how many times A-M is in peril and Hope never once coming is pretty wild. Exploring their relationship is such a lost opportunity because A-M’s dark side is always blamed on the Spaulding side of him, but being the son of a single mom alcoholic in and out of rehab likely contributed to that drive to be noticed/instinct to manipulate. Is it implied Mike was active in Hope’s offscreen life/A-M’s childhood?

They both were out alone and got drunk together the night Blake locked Amanda in the construction site trailer but snuck out then returned only to give herself hypothermia.

If you match that up with A-M being 18 in 1987 then A-M is only three years older than Lucy which makes no sense to the story. Soap math does make the head hurt. (It’s also objectively a hilarious thing to get fixated on when it comes to suspension of disbelief on soaps.) So, bottom line Lucy’s mom could be anyone as far as the timeline goes since the internal timeline makes no sense.