Mona Kane Croft

3 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Did Liz ever have any romantic relationship that wasn't one-sided and/or with a creep? I believe she was disappointed in Wayne Addison, Mac, and Milo the producer.

There was one more -- I believe his name was Fred Douglas (might be wrong), and he was also involved with Liz's daughter, Susan.  So quite scandalous at the time.  But to answer your question more directly, I believe the only somewhat healthy romantic relationship Liz ever had was with Mac.  I mean, Mac was sincere at least.  But that relationship was rather short.    

1 hour ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Well, point of view can make so much difference. I didn't find "Aunt Liz" to be sad. Obviously her subtext was one of loneliness & not necessarily having the stature in the family that she'd have liked to. But, largely, I found her to be likable, if a stereotype. And Irene Dailey had an Emmy which neither Victoria nor Beverlee did! 

I also found Aunt Liz a likable character (actually lovable at times).  And Irene Dailey was an amazing AMAZING actress.  Dailey was perfectly cast as Liz.  But it was the writing that disappointed me at times.  Most of Lemay's writing for Liz was extremely good.  He helped the audience to understand the reasons for Liz's meddling behaviors -- loneliness, abandonment, lack of love. She had been in a loveless marriage, and both her children left town to get away from her (among other reasons).  And her favorite child, Bill, had been killed.  However, I did not like Lemay's choice to make Liz a switchboard operator -- I thought that was the stereotype.   But most of the post-Lemay writers didn't understand Liz at all, and wrote dreary semi-comedic stuff for her.  Donna Swajeski even had Liz telling the audience how loving her relationship to husband Will was (Valentine To Singles, 1989)!!!  And long-term viewers just rolled our eyes, because we all knew that was a rewrite of history.  I did love the character, and I loved Irene Dailey.   

15 hours ago, SoapDope said:

What happened to the house that Steve built for Alice after the 70's ?

When Alice left Bay City in 1979, it is assumed she sold the house, because she didn't move back into it when she cam back to town in 1981.  I believe the house was mentioned only one time after 1979 -- when around 1982, David Canary's Steve Frame told someone (probably Quinn) he was trying to buy it back for Alice, but the new owners were not interested in selling.   He even held up a photo or illustration of the exterior of the house in this same scene.  

50 minutes ago, denzo30 said:

Liz was the matriach of the family at this point so its not hard to believe that she would be living there.  The Matthews home and she was part of the legacy to continue it

Well, except that Liz never really liked Jim and Mary.  And living in their middle-class house would have been beneath her, and probably the last place Liz would have ever wanted to live.  But other than that, yeah.   

4 hours ago, DRW50 said:

It's too bad they didn't do more with Liz buying into Nicole's fashion business. 

(I suppose the strike writers came up with that - unless it was Lemay).

Yes, Liz did seem to have plenty of expendable money when she partnered with Nicole in the fashion business.  But Lemay probably wanted to get Liz firmly back into the Cory family's orbit as quickly as possible so he could write the Matthew/Liz conflict.  So Lemay may have minimized her interaction at the fashion business.  I don't remember if Liz ended her partnership with Nicole, or it just faded away.  

10 hours ago, Efulton said:

Was it ever explained how Liz went from being a wealthy widow to Mac's secretary?  I loved Liz's scenes at the Cory complex but it never made sense from what I read about Audra Lindley's version of Liz for her to be working.

I totally get your point.  To make it worse, Liz's first job at the Cory Complex was as the switchboard operator (not secretary). Which made Liz almost laughable as a complete stereotype -- the nosey meddling old lady working at the switchboard. During this period, Pat Randolph was Mac's secretary. A couple of years later when Pat was promoted to editor, Liz took Pat's old job as Mac's secretary. And weirdly enough, all of this was written by Harding Lemay, who typically prided himself on writing "true to character".  It seemed Lemay wanted to have it both ways with Liz, and wrote whatever he wanted for her. For the most part, Lemay preserved Liz's wealth by having her and Iris become very close friends; by reconnecting Liz with her old wealthy friend, Helen Moore; and by having Liz date Mac briefly.   But on the other hand, there was almost no explanation as to why Liz would accept a job as a switchboard operator.  There were a few vague references to her being bored with life, and that a job might help prevent her from meddling in the lives of her nieces and nephew.   And as the years went by, and later head writers diluted Liz's backstory more and more, Liz became rather middle-class, and was used mostly as comic relief.  Audra Lindley played Liz as the Phoebe Tyler of Bay City (minus the drinking problem), but Lemay wrote Liz differently.  And post-Lemay head writers continued that trend, sadly.  

1 hour ago, Xanthe said:

I haven't found anything specific that answers your question but is the Matthews house that Liz and Sally and Julia and Alice were in in 1984 supposed to be Jim and Mary's house, or is it Liz's house and if so was it the same house from 1964 to 1984 or had she moved?

Yes, the house Liz, Alice, etc. lived in in 1984 was Jim and Mary's house.  It was never really explained why Liz moved in there.  But at some point after Jim died and Alice (Linda Borgeson version) had left town, Liz was suddenly living there with Sally.  

Starting with the AW premiere in 1964, Liz lived in a large fancy house, much nicer than Jim and Mary's.  Although no long-time viewers seem to remember much about Liz's original set, there are several existing photos showing small parts of the interior of that house.  Seen in the photos are a large staircase, a large fireplace, and a grand piano. Liz left town around 1971, and Liz's house was never seen again.  When Liz returned around 1974, played by Irene Daily, Liz lived in two or three different apartments over the years.  Then around 1983, she was suddenly living in Jim and Mary's house, where she lived until Liz was written off again in 1986. Jim and Mary's house was never seen again after that.  When Liz returned at Thanksgiving 1988, I don't remember where she lived, or if they even spoke of her home.  But she definitely didn't move back into Jim and Mary's old house.   

1 hour ago, AbcNbc247 said:

According to AWHP, it lasted until May 1986, which was the end of the Matthews family until Liz was brought back the following year. 

Yes, they still used much of the set until 1986.  But I don't think they used the entire set by that point.  Mostly just the front door, foyer, stairs, and the part of the living room toward the front windows. The original set was about a third larger, with a hallway to the kitchen and a fireplace to the far left, opposite the front windows.

7 minutes ago, j swift said:

MZ would have been a good Eliot, because he would have been a formidable player in Iris's triangle.  Daniel Davis was not a large enough presence, even as opposed to Bert Kramer.

Daniel Davis is a good actor, but was horribly miscast as Eliot. His interpretation of Eliot was completely different from that of the former actor, James Douglas.  Zaslow, although not a great choice for Eliot, would certainly have been better than Davis and could have played the role more similarly to Douglas.   

1 hour ago, Xanthe said:

Thank you. I wish there were more -- I would love to see all the parts of Donna encouraging Cecile to comfort Peter and the reveal of Kevin Thatcher. 

Carl was chilling.  

I do wish though that the David Thatcher murder had been more personal or more organized crime related. Emily's motive of general opposition to the baby ring was confusing and possibly misplaced. I wonder how early the story was decided. I see Alexandra Neil as Emily Benson didn't appear until June 5, weeks after David's murder.

If I'm not mistaken, David Thatcher had a huge fight with someone in the Matthews living room (I think the fight was with Sally).  Anyway -- I believe these scenes were the final scenes that showed the entire Matthews living room set.  The scenes included the front door, foyer, and staircase, also the entire living room from the side window to the front windows, and back around to the hallway toward the kitchen (kitchen not shown) and the entire fireplace.   Does anyone remember seeing the entire set, including the fireplace later than the episode I am describing?   Even when Jacquie Courtney returned in 1984-85 and stayed for about a year, I don't think the camera ever went far enough left to show the fireplace.   I may be wrong, but can anyone verify it?   Thanks . . .

14 hours ago, denzo30 said:

What former character returned?  Both Pat and Alice and Liz where in BC when Jim died.  I think i saw a picture honoring Jim and Linda Borgoson was playing Alice at this time? I think 

There were no returning characters.  Yes, Linda Borgeson was playing Alice at the time.  I'm fairly certain Pat had already left town by the time Jim died, but I could be wrong.   

2 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

Was it perhaps a financial thing?

I know a lot of these location stories had financial backing from the local tourism authorities -at least the overseas ones did. In return for the exposure gained through national television.

Was there any disclaimer in the credits along the lines of 'assistance provided by Arizona Tourist Board' or some such?

You are probably correct about this.  And the production likely was assisted by the Arizona Tourism Board, although I don't personally remember.  

3 hours ago, Xanthe said:

If I recall correctly in 1985 they allegedly planned to go on location to Egypt and then changed their minds because of political unrest or something, so after establishing a lot of Egyptian details in the story they went on location to Arizona with weird Egyptian baggage. 

 

I never understood why they just didn't say they were in Egypt while they were shooting in Arizona.  They spent nearly the entire time in the Arizona desert, didn't they?  So they could have done all the location desert shots in Arizona and just played it like it was Egypt, then the specific interior Egypt stuff could have been shot in the studio.  That would have made MUCH more sense to the audience.  And Hollywood used to do that kind of location substituting all the time.  Why not daytime?  Changing the location in the scripts was obviously last minute and made the entire plot even more laughable than it was to begin with.    

On 3/10/2024 at 6:56 PM, robbwolff said:

If I recall correctly, Jim was said to be in Helsinki, Finland at the time of his death. I also recollect that AW had planned to do a location shoot in Finland in 1982, but it was scrapped for some reason.

It's interesting they sent Jim to the same place they were planning to do location shooting.  Makes me wonder if Jim's character was to be connected to the location shooting in some way.  Either alive, or perhaps his death was to have had some small part in the larger storyline.  If I'm not mistaken, I believe Hugh Marlowe was already deceased when the character left for Finland. I could be wrong about that.    

1 hour ago, TVFAN1144 said:

How was Jim Mathew’s exit handled?   Did Hugh Marlowe play him until his death?   

Jim was said to be on a cruise to Finland or someplace in northern Europe.  The character died there and was brought back to Bay City for burial.  There was no onscreen funeral.  If I am not mistaken, Alice was the only one of his three children to attend the offscreen funeral.  Liz was still in town are well.  I'm not sure if Marianne Randolph Halloway was still on the canvas.  But the Matthews family was extremely small at that point. And not one former character returned for his service.   Sad that Jim and Hugh Marlowe got no real send off.  

3 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Thanks for your reply. I understand & respect the distinction you are making. Further, I would respect your opinion, no matter what. I very much appreciate your enjoyment of humor from Vivian & Ada & others. 

Me, I am also an aficionado of zany comedy & hijinks. On AW that meant Cass & Felicia & Wally and also Krystal with a K Lake & Tony the Tuna. On AMC that meant jokes & gags about Opal's Glamorama & Tad in a chicken suit, etc. I dnn't mind one whit that you don't care for that stuff. Totally okay choice if you ask me.

Actually, I do not believe that ratings reflect either quality or popularity. I could go on about that but it's not really germane here. 

Is this to me? If so, I am totally cognizant that they are instead reel people. 

And I also believe in suspension of disbelief. 

Does that somehow negate values? 

Thanks, Countessa.  It's nice to have an intelligent and civil conversation about an issue we don't agree on.  I appreciate that very much.  Sometimes I feel I have to walk on egg shells in order to avoid offending some of these posters,   But I do it, just to keep the peace.   I'm glad you do not require such tender treatment.   

8 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

@Mona Kane Croft Is it true that in general you don't like any of the AW comedy? Not the Cass-Felicia-Wally hijinks? How about Vivian? Felicia & Wally crashing a truck into a restaurant? 

I enjoy humor on soaps, but not comedy.  And the humor needs to come from characters, not situations.  For example, I enjoyed the humor characters like Vivian, Louise Goddard, Lahoma, and occasionally even Ada and Iris brought to the show. Because it was character driven. None of them were put in particularly funny situations, they just occasionally said humorous things.  The humor Agnes Nixon brought to All My Children was character driven.  Her humorous characters didn't need to be put in unlikely funny situations, they were just humorous people -- at least when Nixon was writing.  And occasionally even Nixon took the humor too far.  I don't like zany comedy on soaps.  It takes me out of the drama.  Soaps should make the audience cry, not laugh -- at least that's my opinion.  I find zany comedy on soap operas to be undignified and embarrassing to watch.   I realize other fans disagree, and that's okay with me.  

But more important than anyone's opinion is the ratings.  And the ratings usually speak for themselves.

My real point in my original post about getting earlier and later characters together was not to knock any of them.  But I've always been intrigued that many of the early characters just don't seem to live in the same universe as the newer ones.  And many times I just cannot imagine them in the same scene together.  John Randolph and Wallingford for example.  I just can't imagine trying to write that scene.  

I know this is not the place for fan-fiction, and I'm not promoting that.  But have you ever imagined scenes which would connect early AW characters with later characters?  Perhaps characters so far apart in time, you had never really imagined them existing in the same world?  And would there be a character who could provide a bridge between the earlier and the later? 

Here's one example: Pat and Lenore (who have stayed in contact over the years) decide to meet-up in Bay City.  They go to lunch at a restaurant and, after a few minutes, Rachel and Felicia walk in.  Rachel recognizes the two women, and . . .

I'm not asking anyone to continue this scene.  But have you ever imagined how early, fairly believable characters might interact with later characters who were more over the top? And could it be presented as real and believable, without resorting to cheap humor?  For example: Marianne Randolph Halloway and Cass Winthrop?  Mary Matthews and Felicia Gallant?  John Randolph and Wallingford?   

Or was the reality of these characters (from different eras) simply too far apart for them to ever truly connect or exist in the same universe?  

1 hour ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I always thought Pat was the oldest, then Russ & Alice the baby. When the show began wasn't she 16? 

I believe she was around 16, but I'm pretty sure Russ was even younger when AW began.   When Russ was sorased and Sam Groom assumed the role, it seemed that Russ jumped ahead of Alice in age.  But as I said, I'm not sure that was ever really confirmed in the scripts.  

7 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

The original order was Pat, Alice and Russ.

Then Agnes Nixon made Russ a doctor so he was then older (maybe not as old as Pat?) but older than Alice.

You're correct here.  Originally, Russ was considerably younger than Pat.  When AW premiered, I believe Russ was in junior high school and Pat was in college.  But when Russ returned from medical school as an adult, lots of fans assumed he was older than Pat.  He certainly seemed older than Alice at that point.  I'm not sure their exact birth order was ever mentioned in a script, after Russ was sorased, but I have read in soap history books that Russ was considered the oldest sibling.  When I was watching AW in the 1970s, I sort of assumed Russ was the middle child. No reason for this except Beverly Penberthy played Pat as so mature, I thought Pat was the oldest.  So the birth order is vague -- unless somebody can find it mentioned in a script.  

14 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

She had lost her importance when Liz was reintroduced and given more position with Pat, Russ, and Alice then Mary was.

And guess who's decision that was...   Actually, Mary didn't lose her importance, her importance was taken from her.   

3 hours ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I'm glad we know what the plan was. The knowledge is bittersweet but it is better by far than not knowing. 

But, back to my show, Another World, and Mary Matthews, matriarch, she quite honestly was never that kind of a matriarch to me & I do not think that having a longer tenure would have made her so. To me she was not like Nancy Hughes or Bert Bauer. Instead she was just a wife, a mother, etc. of the OG core family. Obviously if she'd had very different writing, then perhaps she would have been. But, I do not see that in her as it stands. I'm not sure if this is a minority opinion or not, but if it is, that's okay. They are not new to me. 

Not picking on Donna, but quoting her just to reply.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  A slight rebuttal here, and not an argument at all. To those who don't see Mary as a good or archetypal matriarch such as Nancy Hughes, Bert Bauer, etc;  it is important to remember that Harding Lemay did not like the character or even the idea of the traditional soap opera matriarch.  So he severely minimized the character, reducing her screen time significantly, having Mary "out of town" often with little explanation, and he even attempted to fundamentally change Mary's personality by making her less likable. So to fans who saw Mary only during the Lemay years, I can understand why she seemed to be less important than Nancy, Bert, etc.  That was because Lemay intentionally sabotaged the character.  He didn't want the audience to like or appreciate her. 

I was lucky enough to watch AW during the earlier head-writing runs of Agnes Nixon and Robert Cenedella, and Mary was written as a true traditional soap opera matriarch until Mr Lemay showed up.  In fact, Mary was so similar to Nancy Hughes it was uncanny. Mary and Jim hosted family holidays, supported their children and other family members, and gave advice to nearly anyone who would listen.  They were both extremely important characters who got lots of scenes and lots of screen time.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind about Mary, but I just wanted to add some historical perspective to the discussion.   Poor Virginia Dwyer was "put through the ringer" during her final few years on AW.  Both the actress and the character suffered.  

3 hours ago, NothinButAttitude said:

@vetsoapfan, what was Mary's relationship with Steve? I've always heard that she didn't like him. Was that true? I've always wondered how she truly felt about Rachel at times too. 

If I recall correctly, Mary liked Steve and supported his romance with Alice until around the time Steve married Rachel (between his marriages to Alice).  At that point, Mary gave up on Steve and encouraged Alice to move on without him and date other men.  

Regarding Rachel -- Mary never really trusted Rachel, but tried to be supportive of Russ's marriage to her.  When the family found out Jamie was not Russ's son and that Rachel had become pregnant by Steve Frame, Mary turned against Rachel vehemently and more or less grew to hate her.  But there was a nice scene between Rachel and Mary in 1975, after Rachel was seeing Mac.  The two women ran into one another in the hospital cafeteria, and had an uncomfortable but civil exchange.  Alice walked in and joined the scene.  After Rachel left, Mary commented to Alice that Rachel seemed to have changed since meeting Mac, and she hoped Rachel could finally find happiness.  This was just a feew weeks before Mary died.  

15 minutes ago, j swift said:

Also, is this the debut of Steve and Alice's house that Robert designed?

No.  The house had been featured for several years by that point (1974).   Robert designed the house while he was still living (and appearing) in/on Somerset.   

38 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Mary Matthews is indeed on the 10th anniversary episode, and in fact, appears quite prominently.

Virginia Dwyer is missing from some of the publicity photos of the wedding, but Mary did attend the ceremony and was in other scenes during the day as well.

Check out the entire episode from May 3, 1974 on Eddie Drueding's AW Home Page.

http://www.anotherworldhomepage.com/tenthanniversary.html

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the information.  I'm happy Ms Dwyer wasn't omitted from AW's 10th anniversary episode.  I do know she was often treated shabbily by Mr. Lemay and Mr Rauch.   

4 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I don't recall the details, but even at the time I found it curious that Iris would be at Alice's wedding to Steven. I would not have been surprised to see Ada there (she did not attend the ceremony) because of her close relationship with Mary, but Iris? Hmmm.

 

 

Is it true that Mary Matthews does not appear in the wedding episode (and AW's 10th anniversary)?  Although I was watching AW daily during that period, I unfortunately missed the wedding episode.  I've seen reports online that Mary was said to be "out of town" for the wedding episode, and all of Mary's lines were transferred to Liz.  Does anyone know if that is accurate.  It is clear, Mary is not included in the wedding photo.    

57 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Not to be contrary, but in May of 1974, I am pretty sure Iris was involved with Kurt Landis, whom she brought as a date to Steve's and Alice's wedding. (The episode is available in its entirety on Eddie Drueding's Another World Home Page.) I know iris and Russ were together in 1975, and she was there to comfort him when Mary Matthews died on Good Friday of that year.

Interesting.  You are likely correct, but I had almost forgotten about Kurt Landis.  Now I'm wondering why Iris was at Alice and Steve's wedding.  Iris was never close to Alice, although she quickly lost her animosity toward Alice after Alice and Steve reunited.  But still, the two women never became friends.  Maybe Iris attended the wedding because of Steve??  I remember Iris contracted with Frame Enterprises to build her house in Bay City.   Could the wedding have taken place around the same time Steve was building Iris's new house?   Otherwise, I haven't a clue why Iris would have attended that wedding -- unless Iris was already dating Russ at that point.   

3 hours ago, j swift said:

Was Iris ever actually shown on camera when referenced as being in the South of France, particularly after her divorce from Brian? Or was it just portrayed through Dennis's one-sided phone calls?  For example, did they build a whole set, or was it just Iris in a floppy hat holding a receiver?

I came across a synopsis last night detailing a story about Iris's hostess being upset over her boyfriend flirting with Iris. Subsequently, Iris was upset about Brian selling the house. It all seemed to unfold in the lead-up to Texas. Hence, I'm curious if these events occurred off-screen.

It appears that Beverly McKinsey enjoyed significant time off every year in the late 70s, that necessitated scripting Iris's absence into the storyline.  Which also made me question if it was wise to choose her as the linchpin of Texas, given that she might require lengthy periods of time for vacation.

Yes for sure.  Iris visited Millie Marbury in St Tropez for two different lengthy stays, and both were on camera.  They did build a large set representing Millie's terrace on the coast, with a green-screen (chromakey) Mediterranean Sea behind it.  This may have been the same set used years earlier as Steve Frame's terrace in St Croix, but you'd need to ask Paul Rauch to verify that.  

If my memory is correct, the first time Iris visited St Tropez was in 1978-79, just after she learned she was adopted and fled Bay City.  McKenzie had several weeks off, and then Iris was reintroduced visiting Millie in the south of France.   The second time was when McKenzie broke her shoulder, requiring another several weeks off, and again Iris was reintroduced in scenes from St Tropez.   

The stuff Harding Lemay wrote for Iris's scenes in St Tropez was very interesting.  Most of it, character studies of jet-setting Americans living in Europe.  Millie Marbury was a woman of approximately Iris's age who had long been married to a much older wealthy man.  When her husband died, Millie took-up with a series of younger gold-digging men whom Iris called gigolos. Millie's current boy-toy was a curly-haired stud named Giorgio who spent much of his time on Millie's terrace wearing a Speedo. Millie was quite taken by Giorgio's charms, while Iris saw through his every move (and his vaguely European fake accent) -- often openly making fun of him and ridiculing him for his dependance on an older woman.    

Meanwhile in Bay City, middle-class Susan Matthews had returned to town and was troubled by memories of her long dead brother, Bill.   Susan had several rather odd conversations with Liz about Bill, bringing Bill back into the consciencness of the audience.   While back in St Tropez, Giorgio was exposed as being an American by Iris. Many of the viewers deduced that Giorgio was Bill Matthews back from the dead.

I won't go into the details, but Bill Matthews stayed dead. Giorgio was not Bill.  We will likely never know what Lemay had in mind originally.  Any Lemay fans already know he would not have been a fan of a back from the dead plot.  But had he finally decided to take the leap into that old soap opera trope??  And if so, why did Lemay change his mind after such an intriguing lead-up?   

So Iris's two visits to the south of France had the possibility to drive storyline for years.  But as it turned out, they provided little more than a peak at the lives of wealthy American expats living in Europe.  And I will admit, that was very very interesting stuff. . .

Just a note -- Iris's first visit to St Tropez was definitely written by Harding Lemay. Her  second visit was likely written by Tom King, the head-writer at that time.    

2 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

As I recall, Alice and Iris didn't have a lot of interaction in later years, although Iris was invited to Alice's second marriage to Steven. I think she was present when Alice married Ray Gordon as well.

At the time of Alice and Steve's second wedding, Iris was either dating Russ, or engaged to him.  By the time Alice married that loser Ray Gordon, I think Iris and Russ had broken up.  So not sure why Iris would have attended the Alice/Ray wedding, but perhaps she did.

Iris maintained a close friendship with Russ, which was referenced often throughout the 1970s and again in 1988-89. And Iris was very close friends with Liz Matthews during the entire time Beverlee McKenzie was in the role.  When Carmen Duncan played Iris, the friendship with Liz was completely forgotten and the two women had very few scenes together.   Interestingly, Iris had very little interaction with either Alice or Pat (after her initial plot pitting her against Alice and Elliot) -- almost no interaction with the two Matthews sisters really.  They just weren't in Iris's orbit, I suppose.   Iris did have lots of scenes with John Randolph, because he was her attorney.   

21 hours ago, Xanthe said:

I know we have talked a lot about Hugh Marlowe as Jim Matthews and touched on his Hollywood career, but I did not realize until I caught the end of All About Eve on TCM tonight that he played Lloyd, Karen (Celeste Holm)'s husband.

I think he was very good in films.  But he wasn't prepared for the hard work of daytime.  He was lovable as Jim Matthews, but he blundered his lines constantly.  Have you seen the interview with Ariana Muenker, where she discusses Marlowe forgetting his lines?