GoldenDogs

If you really think that every democrat does not pay taxes, thinks they are a victim and wants the government to give them food, then in what way are you different than your garden variety, typical, insane, tea party imbecile?

Who said that? Who claimed "every democrat" does not pay taxes, thinks they are a victim and wants the government to give them food? Come on, Q-Fan, quit distorting Romney's comments. It's getting old... and it's exactly what the media Carl claims loves Romney is doing.

He never said that. Now, analyze precisely WHAT the man SAID and explain to me where he was wrong... and try to be a little balanced and less partisan about it.

I also don't see where he's turned his back on Israel and how bowing to Benjamin Netanyanhu would have changed any of what is currently going on.

The dude can't meet with the Israeli Prime Minister at a time when Israel is considering a strike on Iran? You don't see that as turning his back on the man? Honestly, Wales... Then again, Obama IS confused about who our allies are...

And now Barack Obama is the one who is responsible for making America dependent on foreign oil. So in under four years he was supposed to take office and change America's energy habits???

Who said that? It was Obama, himself, who claimed he would do it! Another broken promise, Wales? You give him a pass on yet another broken promise? When do you hold him accountable for all the things he said in 2008 to get elected... all the things he promised from that podium between huge Greek columns and an unbelievably huge crowd... Remember all that?

Mitt Romney's statements are in line with his position that black people want free stuff thus the dependency on the government.

When did he say that? Excerpt this for me so I can read it... and in context, not the typical liberal "piecemeal-twist-to-mean-what-you-want-it-to-mean" routine...

...these dependent people he's talking about are white because a percentage of the welfare recipients are probably some of those extreme patriots wedged into the Republican party.

Probably? You say "probably"? You are doing what you've accused Romney of doing.

Then he tops it off by suggesting that Hispanic/Lationo voters would be squarely in his corner if his father had actually been a Mexican. America seriously needs a president who looks down on more than half the population. It's so truly American.

Do you mean this tongue-in-cheek? Or are we getting a true glimpse into what Wales really thinks about America?

I would like to know what botched foreign policy Barack Obama has in place that has resulted in what's been taking place in certain nations overseas. Please enlighten me.

The policy of abandonment... turning his back on securing the middle east. Turning his back on Israel. Bowing, literally, before the Saudi king and allowing America to remain subserviant to their oil, rather than pushing for American energy independence - and I'm not talking his impractical electric cars or scandalous Solyndra crap...

You can't be friends with people who want you dead, no matter what. Wales, if it was reported that murderer was lurking about your neighborhood at night, would you leave your door unlocked and leave your windows wide open? As well-intentioned as Obama might be, he's got it wrong on how to deal with Middle Eastern foes. It's obvious. It's clear. His foreign policy is a major failure.

I don't even know where to begin with that Romney's deceptive, disdainful, and contemptous statements about the people who voted for President Obama.

What did he say that wasn't true?

As Romney goes through yet another revamp the media can swoon over, here's a look at the huge mess surrounding his RNC speech planning.

http://www.politico....1280.html?hp=t1

Exactly which media are you referring to, Carl? This fantasy that the media is having a love affair with Romney is laughable. They spent the better part of last week crucifying him for criticizing the President's botched middle eastern foreign policy - instead of focusing on the botched foreign policy that resulted in the mess we have over there now.

Is this the same media that continues to blame some rotten YouTube video for radicals gone wild? Is this the same media that fails to focus on contradictory statements coming from the White House regarding whether or not Egypt is actually an ally? Or perhaps it's the same media is glosses over the fact that we have just experienced the first terrorist attack against Americans on American property since 9/11 - all under Obama's watch?

Conservative groups using imaginary and manufactured voter fraud as a strategy to suppress the vote: http://www.nytimes.c...A35617B43F97144

*Yawn*

The drumbeat grows weary. The fantasy of suppressing votes... the excuses as to why individuals can't get legal ID...

Honestly, Ann, the argument is getting old. There is absolutely no reason why an individual must present legal photo ID to get hired for a job, to claim any variety of government benefits, or do business at the bank or store... but NOT be required to do so to vote. Give me a freakin' break. After Bush/Gore, I can't even BELIEVE that liberals wouldn't want to ensure that all legitimate votes are counted!

As for the rush to pass laws before the election, making the desire to have voter ID in place before November -- it's straw man! The painful truth is that the move to make this all happen is more than 10 years in the making and constant court challenges by liberal groups, including the ACLU, and activist judges have blocked attempts to make presenting legal ID to vote a law.

Where does that leave you and me because you actually quoted me?

OMG, I'm a dumbass! Sorry, Wales! I got confused when I typed it... I meant to write your name down.

Seriously, this is what happens with limited sleep for two weeks. It's like when you are reading something and you say what you are reading as opposed to what you are thinking. Or is that the other way around...

Can you forgive my stupidity???

So, where is leave us is... maybe we're so far apart on politics that we are bumping into each other on the other side!

Eh, seriously... you're kind of cool and I enjoy reading your stuff, even when I don't agree. We'd probably get along pretty good in the real world. We obviously don't disagree on EVERYTHING... ;-)

I work on my prejudices so little by little I make less assumptions about people I don't know. Things such as assuming that you know what a person looks like based on a name on a piece of paper or a voice over the phone. Or assuming what a person will be like based on the person's look. Our society encourages that sort of thing so it's harder to resist.

Marceline, it would seem you and I agree on more things than not... That we spend more time arguing about the things we don't agree on kind of sucks... but, after all, this is a political forum and someone has got to disagree to make it interesting!

True, but lets face it, if you read about a serial killer that popped up and had yet to be caught, the common assumption will be it is a white male loner. And that wouldn't be an unfair crazy assumption given the roll call of serial killers in history. It's not that white men tend to be serial killers, it is that serial killers tend to be white men. Now I know someone reading this post and my previous post will think I am a fool because everyone is individual it is is wrong to reach conclusions, but that logic only works in Utopia. If you show me Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, The Unabomber and Jeffrey Dahmer and then ask me to guess the profile of the mystery guest serial killer behind the curtain, I am going to guess white male.

And, of course, there's Dexter. :-) But he doesn't mean it in a bad way!

Thanks so much for the very nice message, Brian.

Ehh... didn't post in defense or support of you, sir... just stating my opinion. I've frankly wanted to take you out back and whoop you good a time or two, myself... The only thing holding me back is that I don't pick on guys weaker than me.

Thank you so much for defending me, Qfan. You have always been such a class act.

Some people here have been nasty to me, but Marceline was not one of them. I took her criticism of Romney and personalized it, and then made a very nasty remark. That is totally unforgivable.

I have been getting more temperamental over this election recently, perhaps as a result of my employment situation. If there is any silver lining to the likely Obama victory, it is that the lives of many gay folks here would be much better with a Democratic president instead of a Republican one. In the rare event Romney wins, I could totally relate to the despair they would be feeling.

It is probably for the best that I no longer participate in this thread (or at SON at all) for quite some time, as to prevent my emotions from getting the better of me again.

Mmm.... care less what others think, Max. I stopped caring some time ago. I also won't be driven off because people on this board, like Marceline, are passionate in their beliefs. I respect that, even when I feel those beliefs are misguided. Politics is an intense topic and I, too, have felt a bit of contempt from some here, but nothing that I have felt was over the top. You have probably gotten worse than I for whatever reason. Hell, I give you crap sometimes, too, just for the sport of it... But you shouldn't let others drive you away.

Been there, done that... If you are firm in your convictions, then it doesn't matter what sharp-tongued folks say to you. I see some totally outrageous statements here... I get it from friends, particularly when it comes to race issues.

One of my closest friends at work is black and we chat about politics once in a great while. We were discussing many issues... speculated on why MSNBC, for example, cut from their broadcast of the RNC most of the minority speakers... she didn't know or care why. As for Condoleeza Rice speaking there, she told me she didn't like her and that Rice wasn't really black. Of course I responded that Obama then wasn't really black, either. Her response to me was that Rice's daddy wasn't black, and that was where the "gene" came from.

I was stunned...

Both sides in this country and especially in this forum have a lot to learn about the world, each other, and especially tolerance. Some of the most intolerant I see are those claiming to be the most tolerant. Complete and utter bull$hit, party line and all... and they know it.

With regard to the lives of gay folks being better if Obama gets elected... horse$hit there, too. The man couldn't even offer support of gay marriage until Biden opened his big mouth and forced the issue... and it was a begruding endorsement... over THREE YEARS into his presidency. And what has Obama done to improve the plight of black folks in this country? Nothing.

But we have as signature accomplishments thus far a rotten stimulus package and a government-controlled healthcare program we can't fund because the rotten stimulus package plunged us into further debt.

It's madness... but it's politics, Max, and you have to expect a tough go when you throw opinions around, particularly in a forum where you know the folks here are predominantly left-leaning. People just have to agree to disagree. When I feel like arguing, I'll post. When I don't want to argue, I won't. Or if someone is being an ass, I ignore them. If they show contempt for me without truly knowing me, screw 'em. Look, nobody here really KNOWS me. They have no clue what I'm about or what I truly think. Only one person have I ever met through this particular forum has even bothered to talk to me on a more personal level privately.

Take a pill, Max... don't get overwrought with this thing. I know, we've all been there. You can't change people's minds... you can only present the best evidence you can to support your views and, likely they will shoot it down anyway. It's all in sport, this debating and such. And we all have bigger fish to fry in our lives once we log off this damn thing. Like right now... I gotta think about my day ahead...

First things first... I'll eat some breakfast and exercise while watching a Match Game rerun on GSN in about 5 minutes... LOL... then I'll get ready for my day.

Have a nice day, everyone. Yes, even Marceline and Ann_SS. :-) Because none of this debating and arguing is personal... Remember that, Max...

Our embassies and consulates are under attack, people dead... the Middle East remains enflamed.

And President Obama will not meet with Benjamin Netanyahu to discuss security concerns in Israel. I am absolutely disgusted with this president and his failure or blatant refusal to lead on these issues.

Add this to the list of things I make up and aren't real...

Wendy Rosen, the Democratic challenger to Republican Rep. Andy Harris in the 1st Congressional District, withdrew from the race Monday amid allegations that she voted in elections in both Maryland and Florida in 2006 and 2008.

Democratic leaders — who raised the allegations, urged Rosen to step aside and notified prosecutors — said they would gather Central Committee members this month to identify a write-in candidate for the district, which includes the Eastern Shore and parts of Harford, Carroll, Cecil and Baltimore counties.

Republicans, meanwhile, said the allegations prove that voter fraud is real and called on Democrats join the GOP in calling for reforms.

I'm grateful to Democratic leaders in her state that recognized the problem and took action.

Voter ID is appropriate and should become law across the country... PERIOD.

I saw part of an interview on CNN where Ehud Barak seemed to be pleased with Barack Obama's support. Now considering semantics and perception, I don't know whether that means he isn't uncomfortable or not and there was a reference to a poll in which Israelis gave Barack Obama a favorable rating. Now I'm not big on polls but in this instance I would say that they ought to know better than I what they like

Fueding between the US and Israel burst into the open today when Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's Prime Minister, sharply criticized recent US statements about Iran while the White House said President Barack Obama would not meet Mr. Netanyahu later this month.

Boy, are Republicans pathetic. So much for business owners having a right to their opinions. Guess, they meant only businesses that hate others like the many Republicans do.

Interesting comments. Remarkable double-standard of course, but interesting comments nonetheless. Speaks volumes.

It is this extreme partisan rhetoric that reminds me why I stopped posting in the Politics thread. Shameful.

Input from you nice posters... Help me understand why the national average shows Obama with a slight lead... yet in almost every poll taken, some 62% of those responding say the country is on the wrong track, while only 30% say we're doing fine.

??

Are these alarming numbers for Obama? Should he be comfortable with these numbers? Do people like the president but disagree with the path he has chosen?

Of course, one could take these polls with a grain of salt... very few are ever consistently right. I like to get the feedback from our more liberal friends here who are supporting Obama.

Someone raised the issue of Romney - why support him? At this point, I am voting based on policy. I'm not a liberal and I disagree with many of Obama's more liberal policies. Honestly, Republicans weren't given much to choose from in the primaries... As one who leans right, I recognize how unelectable more conservatives candidates were. I also recognize the danger of a more moderate candidate like Romney for folks like me who lean more right.

Because I so disagree with Obama's politics, I have no place else to go but Romney. McCain was a bitter pill to swallow... sort of hold your nose and vote for him (no offense against the guy, he just wasn't a good candidate). I resented that the Republican establishment all but forced Romney on us... But I don't think my feelings for him are as negative as they were toward McCain as a candidate. I think Ryan was the best choice for VP, however. He calms the more conservative in the party...

Look, we registered Republicans all know what Romney is - a moderate. A moderate conservative is still better than a liberal, in my opinion... or a moderate liberal if you feel Obama isn't left-wing enough. I think Obama as president has been far more liberal than Obama as a candidate in 2008.

Anyway... those are my thoughts on why Romney over Obama question.

Thanks for your time... and best wishes from me to you.

Former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey, who again is running as the Democratic candidate for Senator in that state, slams Obama and points out the flaws in ObamaCare

Kerrey is desparate. He's double-digits behind his oppenent and thinks slamming Obama will pull him through. Politics and idealogy aside, Kerrey is rotten for throwing his president under the bus while attempting to politically position himself.

No wonder the dude is losing... Dems can't possibly respect a guy so publicly bucking his own party and its agenda for polticial expediency. Repubs can't trust a guy who will so willingly sacrafice his own for himself.

Rotten, I tell ya!

Yeah, yeah... not the first politician to eat their own... but I think it's rotten to the core!!

But then there is a flip side... one could say, "Well, he's sticking to his beliefs and bucking his party... doing what's right, you see..."

Blah, blah, blah.

In terms of this specific topic, I don't think it matters or not whether our opinions on it vary.

It matters to me, Wales. We are entitled to disagree, correct?

What matters to me at the moment is that you made a statement which included Israel and Germany. I dismissed Israel based on information I saw indicating that there was no issue.

What information did you see, Wales, that indicated that my statement about Israel being uncomfortable with Obama and his foreign policy is untrue? You said before that the Israelis have said otherwise. Where is this information and could you share it with me?

As far as I know, Germany is part of Europe so I don't get why Germany would count but you easily dismiss the rest of Europe simply because it doesn't fit the negative point.

What do you mean here? I never dismissed the rest of Europe. Except for addressing the points Marceline raised by introducing an article indicating widespread support of Obama by a number of European countries, I never referenced the whole of Europe in the list of countries uncomfortable with Obama and his policies, I referenced Germany. That was my intent. Germany. Merkel's Germany.

Okay, have I missed some critical event in world history where speaking of Germany means speaking of the EU as a whole? Of COURSE I didn't reference the whole of Europe when making what you feel was a "negative point"... why would I? I KNOW much of Europe loves Obama... but much of Europe wasn't central to my initial point because I was discussing "longtime allies" that were uncomfortable with Obama, not those that LOVE HIM!

Im not sure anyone here has indicated Obamas foreign policy or handling of foreign affairs has been exemplary or a lot of what he's done. I've read a lot of his supporters here being critical of him.. Thats the real problem I have with some members of the GOP , who insist many who do support Obama are blind to his mistakes. It would be like me making assumptions about everyone supporting Romney must be blind to his hiccups also. Not meaning to be offensive, I'm not trying to, but you brought up the issue about the US allies all disliking Obama now.

Hi Jane...

I never said that anyone here claimed Obama's foreign policy was exemplary, nor did I ever claim Obama's supporters here are blind to his mistakes. Please read all comments on this issue again...

I brought up the issue of "longtime allies" uncomfortable with Obama. I never said any of our allies "disliked" him.

Stalemate? I don't think that word means what you think it does.

You need to figure out what battle you're fighting. Are you saying that our European allies are uncomfortable with Obama or are you saying that they like Obama but it doesn't matter because they only like him because of his policies? (Which FWIW sounds like a pretty solid reason to like him.)

The only reason we could argue this until doomsday is because you are moving the goalposts. Pick an argument. You can't have both of them.

I'm not moving goalposts, Marceline, I'm responding to the article that you presented that underscored our mutual points.

If you will go back and review what I said to initiate this discussion, you will see that I refered to "longtime allies" being uncomfortable, not "European allies. I never centered this debate on Europe; Europe-specific nations entered the picture with the article you linked to, which cited European opinion polls.

Discussion suddenly shifted away from "longtime allies" to strictly "European allies". I followed where you directed the conversation and commented on why certain European countries have a "love affair" with Obama. I'm not sure why you think I have somehow clouded the debate by "moving goalposts" -- I didn't introduce the off-topic European stuff, you did. I have simply responded to the information you presented.

I never claimed on one hand that European allies were uncomfortable, then posted that they loved him. I said GERMANY was uncomfortable, I never said EUROPE was uncomfortable. Though Germany is part of the European Union, Germany is still a sovereign nation. A reference to Germany is NOT a reference to the whole of Europe.

The separate point your article introduced that I commented on: YES, many European nations have a love affair with Obama. He shares European sensibilities on austerity measures... The majority of the EU swings left and so does Obama. No brainer.

Where have I moved goalposts, Marceline? What have I not been clear on?

Pretty much.

http://globalpublics...omney-or-obama/

An excerpt:

"Europeans have had a four-year love affair with Barack Obama: 87 percent of Germans, 86 percent of French and 80 percent of the British have confidence in Obama, according to a 2012 poll by the Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes project. In each case this is higher than public confidence in their own national leader. And 92 percent of the French, 89 percent of the Germans and 73 percent of the British want Obama reelected."

And from the same article:

Romney has charged that America has lost stature abroad during Obama’s presidency. And some foreign perceptions tend to bear out that observation. In 2008, across 14 countries surveyed by the Pew Center, a median of 44 percent named the United States as the world’s leading economic power, while just 22 percent chose China. Today, only 36 percent cite America, while 41 percent believe China is in the top position.

We can debate this one all day long, Marceline. Europe's four-year love affair with Obama has more to do with his embrace of Europe's way of doing things. Here is more from that linked article:

But the GOP candidate has also espoused fiscal austerity at home, while criticizing fiscal profligacy abroad. This runs counter to majorities in seven of the eight European nations the Pew Research Center surveyed this spring who oppose further belt tightening in their home countries. Notably, only in Poland did people support more austerity. Interestingly enough, it was Poland that Romney chose to visit in late July.

Again, Obama's policies are more in line with what Europe is doing. Of course the people in Europe love him. THE PEOPLE. Not necessarily their leaders.

And how are those European fiscal policies working out for them? Just had to throw that one in there.

Anyway, we could beat this one until doomsday. The linked article offered both points of view, offering evidence to back up both our arguments.

Stalemate. Glad you found the link, though. :-)

Thanks for answering.

I've already discounted Israel because I'll take the word of the Israelis who know and they've said otherwise.

I don't know how major any poor relations with Germany and Poland might be in terms of it being problematic since I haven't heard or read anything.

The Australian thing sounds terribly minor.

If these are the examples then I fail to see a porblem considering the size of the world.

It's my understanding that in general the Europeans at least see him as a major upgrade over his predecessor.

>>shrugs<< Europe's opinions on Obama's performance would have more relevance to me if Europe wasn't in a state of chaos and disaster. If I wished to dig some more, I could offer up a laundry list of foreign policy gaffes, mistakes, etc., but you would likely dismiss them all. These sorts of mini-debates within the thread never work. If you are satisfied with Obama's handling of foreign policy, that's great. It's a matter of opinion.

Our standing in the world is no better today than during the Bush years. For all of Obama's ass-kissing and bowing (literally) before others, relations with friends and enemies alike remain poor. However, when Putin and Jintao express a preference in an American election, it gives me pause...

Will you at least share which longtime allies are uncomfortable with the U.S.?

Sure...

Israel, of course. No brainer...

India has been less than pleased. Obama seems afraid and/or unwilling to really counter China in any significant way as their sphere of influence grows, encircling India. To be fair, India didn't like when Bush tried to get chummy with Pakistan to better facilitate the war on terror (bad move, in my opinion). Obama continued those policies.

Relations with Germany are poor; bad blood between Merkel and Obama date back prior to his election.

Poland is displeased, Obama having referred to a World War II death camp there as a "Polish death camp", rather than a Nazi death camp. Blunder. He hasn't done much to improve relations with them... kind of abandoned them re: missile defense because he was afraid and/or intimidated by Putin... or just didn't care. Whatever his thought process... Poland isn't particularly happy.

That's four of them. His foreign policy sucks and allies he hasn't totally pissed off, he's offended in some way. Even Australia was irritated when he cancelled scheduled visits there TWICE... then managed to visit Indonesia but couldn't seem to find the time to jump over to Australia during that time. I could think up some other stuff... do some research and Google it, I suppose... but that's just the stuff I can recall off the top of my head.

Page 115... easily the best and most informative page in this entire thread! I may not agree with everything you all are saying, I certainly feel as if I'm finally gaining a better understanding of your viewpoints and why you've arrived at them. I seriously appreciate these posts...

Partisan rancor sucks... discussion and reason rules...

I wasn't intentionally dodging your statement. You made a statement that I considered to be superficial and poorly-reasoned ("An ideological fight on the floor of the convention, suggesting deep divisions within the Democratic party on the acceptance of religion and our ties to Israel, is easily the biggest story of both conventions this election year.") and I treated that way but I'll go a little more in-depth.

Ehh... I can see where you might not like the question or the nature of it, but I hold firm that it was a valid question. I suppose you could argue that I presumed there was a divide with the party, but isn't there a divide in every party? As was pointed out, there are divisions amongst Repubs... there are with Dems, too.

That was a one day skirmish where the Dems who had some balls stood their ground and the Party leadership caved. If I'd had my way, the Dems would've stood up and said "The Democratic Party realizes that this country was founded on separation of church and state and we hold that to be one of our core principles. We also recognize that there are a millions of wonderful, patriotic Americans who practice a variety of faiths and we welcome them all whatever deity they pray to. Therefore we will not be changing our platform to accommodate short-sighted, small minded, divisive thinking. Fox News, you are cordially invited to go [!@#$%^&*] yourself." But that's just me.

I agree... however, I think you give a news channel too much credit. FOX News coverage of the convention was DEAD LAST! Conservatives weren't watching and ratings suggest independents turned to MSNBC and CNN. That has always been the trend and everyone knows it - conservatives tune out when they don't want to hear it. The overnights at Day One indicate it so Dem convention organizers knew this... I think the divisiveness came from within the party and it happened spontaneously on the floor. It was unexpected. Now, I could see where Dems overreacted to conservative thinking on the issue, but since when have they cared what FOX pundits say? Unless, Marceline... Obama is vulnerable right now. But that would suggest other problems...

As for the Jerusalem thing, I don't pay any attention to that. I'll be honest, Israel is just not an issue I care about. I acknowledge it's vitally important to a lot of voters but to me it's the political equivalent of water polo. Don't care. Never did. I don't understand why the Democratic party platform has to be remotely concerned with what city some other country considers it's capital but I do understand that they didn't want to let the GOP use it as a wedge issue with Jewish voters. Personally, I don't GAF either way except that it highlights once again that Democrats are wimps.

As I had said to QFan... there is some importance to foreign policy. My personal view is bring ALL troops home and screw the rest of the world... don't give anyone a penny and fix our own house first. But that won't happen no matter who we elect. So, protecting an ally is important and what we do and what we say affects our standing in the world and how we're viewed. I don't think Obama has been strong on foreign policy and things are in disarray. Longtime allies are uncomfortable with us. I think Israel is part of larger question about policy and I agree that Dems screwed up badly here. Bad enough to matter? Probably not because the domestic issues rank more important in the eyes of most right now.

Thanks for offering more, Marceline... I like to discuss, not argue. I also find it easier to drop the partisan BS and just talk about it... I have thrown out my share of partisan bombs here over the years and it has never really helped the discussion. This, though, has been pleasant and helpful to me. :-)