UCLAN

Okay, I just read this and am trying to figure out, based on the headline at the non-partisan, fair and balanced "Crooks and Liars" blog... how is it that Rush Limbaugh attacked McCain? There is no "attack", nor making light of McCain's experiences during Vietnam. Limbaugh isn't exactly my favorite commentator, but all I see here is Rush Limbaugh pointing out an inconsistency in McCain's previous statements about torture. Why is that not fair game for discussion?

This is the issue I see with politics these days... grotesque double-standard. A piece of crap like Janene Garafolo (not sure of the spelling, but she's a fruitcake so I could care less) claims tea parties are about white power and white hatred of Obama and the left doesn't bat an eye... A piece of crap like Rush Limbaugh makes an observation about John McCain's conflicting statements on torture and some lunatic left-wing blogger makes it seem Limbaugh attacked McCain and his service to his country.

If THAT statement qualifies as an attack, then I'd say somebody's got some pretty thin skin!!

Come on this is strictly entertainment. So is Janeen Garafalo. I read these, listen to Rush, watch Hannity to remind my self that I am a sane rational person. Extremeism on both sides is strictly entertainment for me.

Yes GD, LAUSD laid off 6500, mostly administrative postions. And yes thy were very top heavy administratively. My issue with NCLB are stictly academic. We now teach to the test, to the standards, etc. Our measurement for learning is determined by those tests results. Since children learn in different ways, not all gather the knowledge at the same pace. I still have issues with the passage of prop 13 many, many years ago. It dramatically changed education's funding and I feel that education hasn't recovered since then. We regulate, demand adherence to the regulation, but neglect looking at the costs. Purchased any textbooks lately? (Do you buy your son's textbooks? Just curious) NCLB has greatly impacted the teacher credentialing program here in California also. And of course the two governing bodies, CDE and CCTC are miles apart. Yes there are many good teachers and there is also the turkeys, but believe it or not I've only met 3 at most in my 30+ years in education.

Didn't see any tea parties here, but wasn't looking. I'm from that old line of thinking that there are only 2 certainties in life.. Death and Taxes. Taxes are there, I pay, I live. So I guess I don't really let them affect me. Even though I may not agree with the premise of the tea partyers, I applaud their dissent. It's what this country is all about.

Yeah Calfornia is something else. I knew that Arnold would be the same as Davis, cause the issues are still the same. Not enough money to pay for goods and services. Yes we, have a beautiful coastline. (I especially love the central coast) And we have the most beautiful and majestic mountain range The Sierra Nevada. And of course I can't forget the desert I love living in California.

Here is an interesting, kind of related story, UCLAN, and I would be interested in your take on this...

My wife and I had a bit of a disagreement last night. Our son is 14 and a freshman in high school. He announced last night that he wanted to take three boxes of tissue to class as his algebra teacher was looking for donations. Apparently the school doesn't provide tissue. For each box of tissue brought in by a student, that student received 10 extra credit points. My immediate reaction was "Hell no!!" A better grade for tissue? Then I was a little irritated that the school didn't provide tissue... then I got more irritated that some teachers aren't teacher but, rather, taking classroom time to bitch about the budget issue.

My wife was like, "So what? Send some tissue." The boy was immediately defensive and argued with me that his science teacher paid $250 out of his own pocket for a projector bulb. Again, I was like, "What the hell? How do YOU know about your science teacher's personal finances?" With all the fiscal talk in class pushing aside lesson time, no wonder there isn't time for mandatory community service!

The boy is taking a box of tissue as I finally just said, "Whatever, do what you want, but in the future, take your own damn tissue to school and let everyone else fend for themselves!" I told my wife later, I'd feel much better about it if he took a box of tissue in and told the teacher he didn't want 10 points for it. I think that's a bigger issue for me... bartering better grades for tissue. What next? Bonus points for toilet paper or tampons?

I know the budget crisis is making things tough for educators (as if they weren't already!), but come on... I think this is a bit ridiculous. As for the dude buying a projector bulb, I have money that says he'll get reimbursed for that because, budget crisis or not, if there is some old media that meets a California standard, the district WILL make sure that standard is met and the media viewed... Why a teacher is discussing his personal expenditures with students is beyond me. What next? Bitching about his alimony payments?

Anyways... would like your opinion on this one, given your proximity to students...

Well, I agree with your "take the tissue but no extra credit points." ( I think each student should be responsible for their own and choose to share if they want)In terms of budget and the projector; I would venture to say that the projector was the teacher's personal property. If not, I could see him/her having to buy the bulb and NOT get reimbursed. It's quite possible that the projector is a teaching aid choice by the teacher.There are some things that are considered non-essential and aren't included in school supplies. Tissue is one of them. Many teachers are in the position where they are purchasing supplies for their classroom, ie bulletin board materials, extra paper, pencils, incentives. (Notice all the educator discounts at Staples, Office Depot etc.) School districts can barely pay teacher's salaries. I work at a non-public school. School districts pay us a daily rate per student. We are responsible for purchasing our own curriculum (but we're mandated to use theirs), supplies, salaries, providing transportation etc. Even though the majority of our students would qualify for the Federal School lunch program, it is not available to us, so we provide lunch for our students. One SELPA is asking us to take a rate cut and our rates for 2009-2010 have been frozen by LAUSD. We do not provide tissue for out students. We did in the past, but there was too much waste.

My guess is that possibly your son's algebra class is full of student's with allergies or colds and they constantly have runny noses. They keep asking for tissue, so the teacher got on the soap box and gave the 411 on the issue. Thus he/she came up with the idea of tissue for extra credit points. I don't know of any school that provides tissue for students in this day.

Thanks, UCLAN. Numbers are numbers... there is no news organization, bias or otherwise, that would cook up government numbers like that. I'm sorry the news isn't so good... But it is the news that IS on the story. Perhaps FOX is every bit on right leaning as CNN and MSNBC are left leaning... but all of them report this type of stuff accurately and fairly.

Unfortunately, I think things will get worse before they get better. People aren't spending money; they're not buying big ticket items. I know the incentives are there, but the money isn't in our pockets. And if you have any money, your saving or spending very wisely. I think our economic recovery will be slow and we will be hearing both upward and downward stories for a long time.

Ahhh, Alpha... you are making it more palatable for me!! Of course, I'm still not sold on the idea. I mean, as long as we (especially here in California) are failing to so much as teach remedial math and English, I think it's ridiculous to throw something else on to an already messy plate. With failing schools and detached students, particularly in low-income areas, community service would be a farce.

Now, I'm not saying that such programs don't do some good. I just question the practicality of it all. But getting back to at-risk youth and the more economically-depressed areas, I have seen through my work how involving at-risk youth in community service programs helps THEM... but this is basically a self-worth thing. Every child needs to feel valued and such service gives them that, along with mentoring on some level. But these are very young children. By the time they reach middle school, you're really done and there isn't too much you can do to deter their course. You can try... you can sink money into program after program for middle and high school age kids, and it just doesn't work because the issues with those kids begin and end at home. I've always thought it to be ridiculous that some think that the 6 to 7 hours a kid is at school can have more of an impact on them than the seventeen plus hours a weekday they are at home at potentially with negative influences. Riiiiiight....

Anways, you're awesome Alpha... You're making me think harder about these things.

But you know some of these inner city programs are the hook for a lot of at risk kids. No you don't make an impact on all, but you do make an impact. Some times it is the smallest impact that you see. I work with at risk special needs students (consider it a double whammy). You learn to measure your success in tiny increments. And they are successes. I feel if you reach a student on any level, you have a modicum of success. A lot of these programs are the bridges to the trust and security some students lack at home. Anyway, that has been my experience in the educational setting that I work in. Sometimes little things do make a difference

I don't see a problem with making this a mandatory requirement for graduation. Many times, children must be MADE to partake in something they may not like, it happens throughout childhood. But once these students are MADE to do something that will help someone else who may desperately need it, then you just might see a change in that student. You may seem him gain a sense of accomplishment and pride for doing something that helps another. It's TEACHING them to care about their fellow man, to have a generosity of spirit, to not be some self-absorbed twit who wants to be paid for EVERYTHING they do, even scratching their butt. Of course, conservatives don't want this.. because above all else conservatives value money and material posessions more than they value people (Unless said people are friends and family). We make all kinds of requirements for graduation, some... like algebra... are virtually usless in everyday life. Teaching caring and generosity, and concern for your fellow man is something that will be carried with you all your life. Forcing against the will never works with ADULTS, Brian.... but with children, gentle to moderate force is required many times and is quite effective

Totally agree with you. You express my sentiments exactly to a "T"

Oh, so you challenge the numbers, Roman? Please cite a source that indicates that the numbers in the story are inaccurate.

And, for the record, sir... I would take ANY news source, CNN, MSNBC, etc., over the "Liars and Crooks" blog.

Check the byline guys. This was an AP wire story posted on FOX. Read to me like a hard news story, facts only no opinion or bias expressed. Let's be clear before we sling mud

You know, UCLAN, I enjoy pleasant conversation and debate. And I actually don't live in a place of my own thinking and liking...

I live in California.

Hey, I live in California too. It's the perfect place for me . I enjoy the debate too. It keeps the gray matter sharp. I haven't responded regarding the service learning requirement, because I'm still thinking about it. A lot of what you say rings true, but I haven't decided how I really feel.

But really think about this; we read and link and post things that validate our opinions. I try and read mostly all the links. I can't say that I don't lean one way, cause I do. I have found in my old age that I am open to ideas that I never would have considered when I was younger.

On a lighter note, I know when I see your name or Roman's on a post, that I will be entertained and even enlightened.

We can search all over the world wide web to find those that validate our opinions. I think I'm going to give that book Jess suggested a read. Sounds like we all like to be in places of our own thinking and liking.

Ahh, yes, we agree about that. I also work in education, though not directly with students. My son is a freshman in high school so I have a front row seat right now in what he is doing at that level, while my nieces are both in elementary school. Most of the electives offered are time-fillers and time-wasters...

But back to what we were previously discussing... Do you feel that free will should be disregarded and mandatory community service be pushed forth as a graduation requirement? Do you feel kids would put their heart and soul into something they didn't wish to be involved in?

Well, I am in agreement with the service learning requirement that LAUSD has in place. It's often done in conjunction with an academic class. I feel that students rise to the occasion when asked. Often they are not in favor of doing the deed, but usually respond positively when they become involved. I guess my experience is with minority lower economic students. I work in a non-public school. The majorty of the students are designated ED. These are students who usually are not aware of the different avenues of service that are open to them. Most are sometimes on the receiving end of someone else's charitable act. Sometimes we all are put in a position of doing something we don't want to doand sometimes we experience joy and satisfaction that we couldn't imagine we would feel.

When you put it in terms of free will, then the answer gets a little gray. Look again at my first answer. Do we disregard free will in a lot of areas of our life? Is the community service requirement a means of teaching compassion and caring for our fellowman? Is that something that is sorely lacking these days?

Agree with all that you have said, UCLAN, however I still don't think it should be a mandatory requirement for graduation. Offer an incentive to entice them to engage in some form of community service, but don't force it. Forcing people to do things against their will never works... Do you believe, UCLAN, that free will is overrated?

Ah, now that's a good question. How free is our free will? Well, I think we have the ability to make a choice, but that choice is shaped by so many parameters. Laws, social conventions, what would my family say, what would Jesus do? All of that affects the chioces we make.

In regards to grad requirements. We already "force" so much on our students. In the past 20+ years, the number of credits required for graduation has risen from 160 to 230. LAUSD is even thinking of adding 10 more. How many of our students are even interested in courses offered in H?. They take them cause they have to. Could this be one of the reasons our dropout rates are so high? Our kids just aren't into school. I believe we need to go to a model like one in England where students can attend a vocational or trade school to prepare them for a job.

Ummm, actually no, Roman. I wasn't speaking of court-ordered community service. I'm discussing mandatory community service as imposed upon us by the Obama Administration.

UCLAN, as to your comments regarded court-ordered community service, it is a shame it is regarded as a punishment -- helping others. But when a judge orders it, a person serves it. However, I don't agree it should be imposed upon students. There are already many clubs in high school where students do positive work in the community... why give them yet ANOTHER requirement to meet for graduation? Are we not disgusted with the requirements No Child Left Behind has imposed upon teachers and students? Let's not burden them more with some ridiculous community service requirement... it's ridiculous.

Well, being in education, I see the value of a service learning requirement. Granted, there are many clubs in hs, but the majority are not service oriented. At my school, we have an annual canned food drive for our local senior center. The drive is coordinated and run by our graduating seniors, thus they earn their service learning credit. Many times you need to bring the horse to the water. Many of our students wouldn't think about doing something like this unless they were exposed to the opportunity. Yes it is a shame that courts order community service as restitution. As far as I can remember, service requirements for HS were in place long before NCLB (late 80s early 90s George 1's thousand points of light)

Yes, there IS a problem with community service when you are required to complete it not of your own free will.

Well what about the judical system? Many are sentenced with community service hours as a form of restitution. That's totally required. One doesn't have a choice in that. What about the high school requirement for service. In essence you don't have a choice there if you want to graduate.

When I first read your post about the cyberspace act, it tweeked my radar. I had lots of concerns about it, so I read the bill. What was in the bill isn't remotley close to what you quoted. Yes, it does give the President the ability to call a cyber emergency, but not in the context that the quote implied. There is also much more to this bill than was alluded to in your quote. Again, I'd like to know the source of the quote. It would give me a better perspective.

I don't see this bill as socialist. As a matter of fact in the context of your quote, it appears facist.

I'm not sure as to why you believe we are moving to the left. Pres Obama is just a little left of center. He comes across as very pragmatic. Like I said before, we differ cause he mulit-tasks alot. I'm not good at that, he is. He's an excellent listener and has a vision he wants to achieve. It obviously is not your vision. But are we on a highway to hell? No, I don't think so. I think that we are slowly recovering and making our way back to a country where everyone feels they have a say.

However, not as interesting as wiretaps that were intially sold to the American public as only to be used against terrorists. In actuality, every American was subject to such wiretaps. Why did they feel the need to hide this from everyone?

It's funny how all this "outrage" concerning presidential authority was absent during the last 8 years. And now, all of a sudden, it's a problem. Mind you, the last 8 years saw was historically the period that saw the president - and VP - gain more power than in the HISTORY of the USA.

And NOW it's a problem? GMAMFB.

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ITA Greg,GMAMFB. I read the bill (thanks for the link GD). It isn't as scary as it seems. It calls for setting up a cybersecurity panel to oversee possible breeches in security. It calls for recruiting and training those who have an affinity for working with computers. (lots of grants to advance education in the field). It mentions (in one section of a 51 page bill) of the president's ability to call a cyber emergency. The context I took it in was if there was a breech in the government and those private entities dealing with the government. I didn't read as a blanket type of deal. I'm curious as to where the quote came from; it's not the wording in the bill. The bill has lots of oversight written into it. Secretary of Commerce needs to report to Congress.

As for the mandatory community service, here in L.A. most high schools, public and private, require community service, volunteerism, service learning etc, as a requirement for graduation. Most parents I know guide their children in to giving back. Both of my daughters volunteered at the local elementary school's summer enrichment programs throughout their entire high school years. Is there really a problem with community service? (Peace Corp, VISTA, Teach for America) These programs have existed for years.

UCLAN First of all (a little off topic) but I guess you've heard the news about our show. I don't know how I'm going to act without seeing "Guiding Light" on the DVR list everyday.

But on to the topic at hand. You make some good points, UCLAN.

And to the topic of "pork", it's all relative - isn't it? I don't consider spending on health care or any other social program to be PORK. I don't consider spending on highways and infrastructure to be PORK. I consider that an effort of President Obama and his administration to help the American people. That's what it's all about. That if one of us falls, there will be someone there to pick you up and help you get back on your feet. I believe in that. As a country, we're only as strong as our weakest citizens. Once we work to lift everyone up and make everyone strong, we become stronger as a result.

Furthermore, President Obama made some very good points specifically on health care. How can a country return to economic prosperity when the cost of health care is eating up the majority of people's income? It can't. He's beginning to fix ALL aspects of the economy, and if the cost of health care isn't brought down, we will be suffering under the weight of the elephant in the room once again. I say more power to him.

ITA about GL. My deep mourning period begins now. It will leave a big hole on my DVR list too. (I'm watching right now)

Ah yes, Health care is the 2 ton elephant in the room. Costs are out of control. I consider myself lucky to have affordable insurance. I know many who don't. Here in Cali especially L.A. education is really suffering. LAUSD laid off about 5000, 99 Special Ed teachers. I was always of the opinion that Special Ed was untouchable. I was wrong. Education needs a bailout. Children are our future and they need to be prepared fully to deal with it. Priorities...I think the president's priorities are right on target.

His APPROACH to resolving issues indicates that his priorities are out of whack, Greg. Pork? How does that resolve the economic issues? Why would he sign so much waste into law? How does spending more pork on Acorn and other pet projects of lawmakers resolve our economic woes? Do you agree that Obama has displayed remarkable judgement in how he has proceeded? Do you agree that his administration has performed to its highest level of competency?

Pork is in the eye of the beholder. I think that term has been wrongly used or defined. Not everything in the stimulus and the budget is "wasteful spending" Not everyone is funding a bridge to no where. I'm curious as to where you got the information on spending for ACORN. Is that in the stimulus or the budget? Which member of Congress is calling for that? Is that like the train from Disneyland to Vegas? (not true) I often wonder about people's rationale. Many cry out for less government involvement and lower taxes. My analogy as silly asit may seem to some is this: I can't have $50 and gointo the store and buy something that cost $100. Yet we expect the government to build roads and highways and bridges and not pay anymore than we now pay, regardless of the fact that stuff costs more nowadays. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't get it.

In terms of President Obama, I think he's doing the best job that he can. He's definitely not as left as I thought he would be. Like I said previously, I think he's got too many oars in the water, but that's based on how I deal with tasks (one at a time). But I think he's a little smarter than me (Not much though ). Time is an ally. I think the president will use time to his benefit. So far the trip to Europe is going well.

Just finished rolling stone article. WTF! Wall Street and the banking industry ran amock. This whole scenario is insane. Regulation is needed badly for this industry.

For those of you that don't really know what's going on with the current financial crisis (I dunno if this has been posted earlier in this thread), this is a really good, in-depth column on what happened, why, and where it looks to be going: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story..._big_takeover/1

You need to realize that while the past is the past, the past is utterly and supremely important. If we don't look to the past and keep the failings and mistakes in mind, then we are doomed to repeat it. Just look at the current situation we're in.

I fully realize that we need to learn from our mistakes. I am very familiar with that saying. My frustration is the blame game.(Not on my watch, Clinton policies etc).

Sorry GD, didn't see 60 mins, Jay (Leno Leno too late(asleep) 60 mins too early (still at dinner)). Believe or not I don't need to watch Obama 24/7. I support what he is trying to do. I keep up via print and internet news (LA Times on line.) I try not to judge or comment on people's foibles. While I did not care for GW's policies as president, I never saw him as uncompassionate or unfeeling. He certainly wasn't the brightest bulb on the block but I didn't perceive him as insensitive. He was a man driven by his beliefs and he acted accordingly.

I think you are spot on about the media and coverage. It amazes me that there is much that we don't know in this 24/7 media technology know everything instantaneuosly day. It makes me wonder if we have lost our compassion in this I need to be #1 age. Or maybe our empathy for people who are hurting. You are right about all parties needing to take responsibility for their part in katrina's shortcomings. The tragic part about NO was the area hardest hit was the poorest area of the city. Many of these folks don't have the ability to rebuild, lack of funds or under-insured. I guess that's why there was a need for leadership. Lots of folks couldn't even get FEMA trailers. And you do remember all the fraud with the FEMA workers and the vouchers. So in a time of great need, our leaders (on all levels) didn't step up to the plate. The big question is have we learned from this?

But I agree we should be one mad as hell country for the amount of suffering that goes on everyday and the lack of effort to change it.

Why not? Obama got elected President and he doesn't have any experience!

Sorry... I'm teasing now... LOL... a little levity, of course. But with all that said, Michael, I still say the ultimate resposibility for what went down during Katrina lies with local authorities there. As others have pointed out, Mississippi and Alabama were hit, too... but those folks had their act together. Just my opinion, though, based on observations and news reports.

B

I think the issue with New Orleans and Katrina is based mostly on the perception that Bush didn't deem it important. Note that I said perception. Celebrating a birthday while tv was inundated with pictures of people in distress, looting and the like didn't sit well with many Americans. This coupled with the fact that recovery in NO is extremely slow. (especially in impoverished areas) Many people don't realize that Galveston and lots of the Texas Gulf area is still in dire staits since Gustav. We needed FEMA to take more of a leadership role during Katrina.

I persevere. Life has it's ups and downs. I am thankful that I have a job (in special education, so I'm saved so to speak). I have a home and I'm able to put food on the table. I consider myself among the lucky. Never in my voting life have I lost faith in this country or what it is capable of accomplishing. I have faith in our system of government and faith that we can right the wrongs.

On another note, my brackets are totally busted. Memphis just lost to Missouri and Duke is going down. Of course since my Bruins were hammered, the joy is not there, I must put my hopes into next year. Isn't the madness time a great time of year and a great diverson too.

Well GD and SF, we agree on some things but not all. Both of you seem to be compassionate and you are guided by your conscience and your heart. I venture to guess that you are both active in your repective communities. Like me, we all want what is best for our country. Sometimes the paths we choose to get there are different. I have found that it is best to accept the things I cannot change but strive to make things better. Like Jess said, many of us don't exercise our right to vote.

I am hoping that Obama and Congress can come together to find solutions to move us forward. I am extremely tired of the blame game. GW"s presidency is over and it is time to move on. The past is the past. I am hopeful in Obama and I realize that he is very different in his way of dealing with issues. (or different from GW). Those differences make people uneasy. It is understandable because change is often difficult to deal with.

SF, I am sorry for your hard times just as I am happy that all is going well for GD. That is the nature of these times. I am optimistic that things will get better.

I sometimes think that people thought that 1 min after President Obama was sworn in that the skies would open and heaven would declare that all our problems are solved because "he is now President" (think of that as being said in a loud bellowing hallowed voice) Come on what did people expect? Our problems are too massive to solve in 2 months. Progress is being made slowly. The last couple of posts exemplify the extreme partisanism on both sides. To truely solve our problems we have to let go of our ideology on both sides. What's that word? Compromise.

If you're ready to throw in the towel after 2 months, what are you going to do for the next 3 or so years? What's that saying, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Thanks MichaelGL for reminding everyone that new administrations have rocky starts and all is not rosey

Well, I don't think the president is doing poorly. I think that any recovery that is going to happen is going to be slow. SteveFrame, I believe that you are seeing your tax cuts immedately, I don't believe that your boyfriend will end up paying at tax time because the rate will be adjusted.

Do I think the pres has his fingers in too many pieces of the pie? Yeah, I do, but that's cause I'm a work on one thing at a time person. We are in a place when we have to radically change our corporate structure, the way we do business. That's a scary thing for a lot of people. To me, the bottom line is that trickle down economics did not work. We can't continue to try to make it work. Everybody needs to get together and come to agreement on a plan. Tom Brokaw said it best on MTP this morning. He said in effect that you have to leave your ideaology behind and support what the president is trying to do ala FDR.

It seems we create arguments just for the sake of arguing. (I could go on about that but I am distracted by the madness.And I'm doing better in the brackets than the pres.) My point being, we can't expect things to happen overnight. Sometimes the steps forward are lost in the muck that they are moving through. Are our dire straigts really that die? Our consumption is growing, recovery is happening. We get sidetracked by thing like AIG bonuses, Leno show etc. Patience is something we need to all exercise.

LOL at Jay!! <<relief>> I was beginning to think I was a radical... and in steps Jay to back me up! At least on this issue, I'm at last in step with someone... hehehe... I wish Roman was here to see this!!

Well even us radicals can be fearful of nukes in the wrong hands. I too agree with you. Iran with nuclear capability is a very scary thing.