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Y&R: RIP Kristoff St John

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10 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

That was an innovation for a black male character at that point, right? Ed Hall and Jesse Hubbard certainly weren’t glamorous in the way that white male characters were in the ‘80s.

 

I would say so.  Ed Hall and Frank Grant (AMC) were great representations of intelligent, African-American professionals.  And Jesse Hubbard was a terrific role model for young Black men who came from "the 'hood" and aspired to get out.  But Neil Winters was different in that he was an educated and sophisticated AA who wasn't a cop, like Ed and Jesse; or a doctor, like Frank; but a businessman, working alongside Victor Newman, who is GC's biggest corporate titan.

Edited by Khan

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1 minute ago, Khan said:

 

I would say so.  Ed Hall and Frank Grant (AMC) were great representation of intelligent, African-American professionals.  And Jesse Hubbard was a terrific role model for young Black men who came from "the 'hood" and aspired to get out.  But Neil Winters was different in that he was an educated and sophisticated AA who wasn't a cop, like Ed and Jesse; or a doctor, like Frank; but a businessman, working alongside Victor Newman, who is GC's biggest corporate titan.

That’s a huge deal. Unfortunately, I don’t think the success of Neil inspired many imitators, which speaks to the limitations and failures of imagination from TPTB. We see many more Jesse Hubbards than Neil Winterses.

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1 minute ago, Faulkner said:

That was an innovation for a black male character at that point, right? Ed Hall and Jesse Hubbard certainly weren’t glamorous in the way that white male characters were in the ‘80s.

 

Neil is definitely the first of his kind. All the other black male characters I'd seen on soaps prior (Jessie and Nathan for me) were more working class down to earth folks. Neil was black excellence before black excellence was a "thing".  Even Hank Gannon on OLTL didn't give off the same kinda sophistication. Probably because Nathan Purdee didn't have KSJs looks. Or maybe I was kinda spoiled by him playing Nathan prior. Either way, Neil felt like a character in a separate class and occupied a place alone for many years. 

 

It's ironic that his protege/son is now also the first of his kind. Had any soap ever had a black character (biracial) as the heir to a core white family and the recipient of old money and prestige that comes along with it the way Devon is at the moment? 

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4 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

Unfortunately, I don’t think the success of Neil inspired many imitators, which speaks to the limitations and failures of imagination from TPTB. We see many more Jesse Hubbards than Neil Winterses.

 

And even the Neil Winterses hit the so-called "Great White Wall" eventually.  They can never advance too far in the corporations lest anyone be uncomfortable with a "head n***a in charge."  That's why I think LML saddled Neil with the ridiculous notion of opening a nightclub (because, ooooh, a Black man owning a nightclub is sooooooooooo revolutionary) during her stint at Y&R.

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10 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

That’s a huge deal. Unfortunately, I don’t think the success of Neil inspired many imitators, which speaks to the limitations and failures of imagination from TPTB. We see many more Jesse Hubbards than Neil Winterses.

I think Bill Bell just took what he had done several years earlier with Brock Peters and Stephanie Williams and just expanded the idea to create the Winters family. Of course, connecting them to the canvas through Mamie. They became a complete fully fleshed out family, while Brock Peters' character was mostly limited to police work, although Stephanie's character got much more depth with her relationship with Tyrone and being Traci's best friend. 

Edited by alphanguy74

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16 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

 

Mal probably used KSJ’s troubles opportunistically to do away with a character he wasn’t interested in.

 

You know, even after posting all of these tributes, I still look at this thread title and think it’s absolutely surreal.

 

I also wonder if this is the highest-trafficked day for this board in a while. I never see 100+ anonymous guests on this site.

 

That's probably true about Mal. 

 

It's the highest traffic day here and it's also probably the highest traffic on social media the show and soaps in general has had in a  very long time. Probably since since the last show cancellations. Maybe? 

 

I wish CBS, Sony, Y&R would look at this and understand the impact the Winters made and do better by the next generation. But I think that might be asking to much. 

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Frankly, I'd be shocked if an on-screen tribute to Neil (and to KSJ) didn't turn into another excuse for Lola to cock-tease the hell out of Arturo, or for Mia to foist more of her pseudo-Mexican food truck food on unwilling citizens.

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3 minutes ago, Khan said:

Frankly, I'd be shocked if an on-screen tribute to Neil (and to KSJ) didn't turn into another excuse for Lola to cock-tease the hell out of Arturo, or for Mia to foist more of her pseudo-Mexican food truck food on unwilling citizens.

 

I expect nothing out of this show, but I truly feel it would need to be treated as an extended tribute with lasting impact. If anything, this shows the impact he had which the show took for granted. At a minimum I would expect a tribute that resonates, not one episode. I want to see so many people return and pay tribute and much like when Mac died on Another World or Katherine here, I want a tribute that will keep their memory alive and impact future story as much as they did during their time on the show. 

 

As the day has gone on this hasn’t left my kind and it still feels so unreal. To be thinking of how to send off Neil Winters is not what I expected. 

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4 minutes ago, Khan said:

 

And even the Neil Winterses hit the so-called "Great White Wall" eventually.  They can never advance too far in the corporations lest anyone be uncomfortable with a "head n***a in charge."  That's why I think LML saddled Neil with the ridiculous notion of opening a nightclub (because, ooooh, a Black man owning a nightclub is sooooooooooo revolutionary) during her stint at Y&R.

 

It's the way soaps are constructed as well (Particularly Y&R). It had it's main (wealthy) core families (Newmans, Abbots, Chancellors) with most folks marrying or anchoring to them. The limitations put on the romances of black characters limit their opportunities to do that. REG spoke about this upon her exist from OLTL. Unless the shows were willing to expand their core basic story to shake up the power structure, black folks were on outside looking in. 

 

I thought that Mal Young was going to do that when he expressed interest of having a third powerful family alongside Newmans and abbots and chose Winters for the role versus creating another white family. Turns out, he wasn't really committed. Instead of letting winters rival others, he set them up to work for and with. That just cast them in the same role they'd occupied for 25 years albeit with a different name. 

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2 hours ago, Faulkner said:

The Braeden quotes here are incredible. Real and raw.

 

Those made me tear up even more  😢

 

2 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

@kalbir if those fools at CBS hadn't made Charlie and Company run up against The Cosby show, they might have lasted beyond two seasons.  I was a kid when that show aired, so I always wondered why it disappeared.  It wasn't belly-laughs funny but it was entertaining and seemed to be improving.  Sad to know that half that cast has now passed away.:(

 

I didn't watch Charlie and Company when it originally aired; I learned about it years later.

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1 minute ago, Faulkner said:

This show is screaming for Olivia/TLW or Harmony/Debbi M in a full-time capacity.

 

Yes!

 

Both should he at the funeral if it happens. And both can stay full time after. 

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1 minute ago, Chris B said:

 

I expect nothing out of this show, but I truly feel it would need to be treated as an extended tribute with lasting impact. If anything, this shows the impact he had which the show took for granted. At a minimum I would expect a tribute that resonates, not one episode. I want to see so many people return and pay tribute and much like when Mac died on Another World or Katherine here, I want a tribute that will keep their memory alive and impact future story as much as they did during their time on the show. 

 

As the day has gone on this hasn’t left my kind and it still feels so unreal. To be thinking of how to send off Neil Winters is not what I expected. 

I think they’d have to be dumb to not realize the cultural impact this story has had. But they’ve proven to be less than smart in the past and present so...

2 minutes ago, ajsp35801 said:

 

Yes!

 

Both should he at the funeral if it happens. And both can stay full time after. 

Lily should come back, and they can send Charlie/Mattie off to college and/or work elsewhere, at least until CK looks old enough to be mother to grown adults or Y&R gets cancelled, whatever happens first.

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24 minutes ago, YRfan23 said:

Have to post this, because it's one of my favorite Neil and Dru clips.

 

 

God, what an amazing time in my life. Everything about them was simply mesmerising to my 13 year old mind.  Still is.

 

23 minutes ago, Faulkner said:

I think they’d have to be dumb to not realize the cultural impact this story has had. But they’ve proven to be less than smart in the past and present so...

Lily should come back, and they can send Charlie/Mattie off to college and/or work elsewhere, at least until CK looks old enough to be mother to grown adults or Y&R gets cancelled, whatever happens first.

 

Those kids shouldn't even be adults. They never had one real story as children. Only kidnapped once and never been sick. What a waste of opportunity for winters. Goes to show, though. 

Edited by ajsp35801

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