Gay Characters in US Soaps

[EricMontreal22]

 

GH is in some ways the one that drives me the craziest for just that reason.  I had heard that in past decades the writers were told to put a lid on how many gay characters--Bianca on AMC was extremely popular so keep her, give her a gf or two, but when she's on that means we can't introduce a major gay male character (and vice versa I assume).  When Bianca hadn't come out Greenlee and Leo saw her in a lesbian bar--theyw ere slumming for fun or something.  I always found it amusing that there was a lesbian bar in or near Pine Valley and that Bianca never seemed to hang out there again..)

Carlivati of course showed what CAN go wrong when OLTL became the gay hour for a while--the Kish storyline was going on and at the same time was the Dorian pretends to be lesbian to become mayor (that makes so much sense....)  and the mass gay wedding for all the apparent gay citizens of Llanview, etc--all played as camp.  (That was not long before Kish were both fired and their story cut with rumours that viewers were uncomfortable with the gay stuff, but I suspect it wasn't Kish--who had a following--so much that all this stuff was playing at the same time).  (Of course I can't blame Carlivati for OLTL's earlier gay serial killer mess)

 

 

 

 

AGreed on both counts.  A bi love triangle would have huge possibilities but none of the soaps are equipped to tell one right now (and they'd have to not make it obvious that the "straight" relationship is the end game)

 

Me too!!  Especially after attending a Q&A with Maupin in the Summer.  I admit I hope they change some details of the last two books (which seem like where the storylines are going to be drawn from although they're going off on their own path)--I enjoyed them, though it DID seem like Maupin to some extent WAS checking boxes in a way he didn't use to--MtF character, check, asexual, check, etc, etc.  If these characters are given more of their own identities in the TV series this won't be an issue.

[Vee]

I loved the gay wedding, etc. Yes, it was a lot but was bold and IMO ahead of the times by a year or two. It did OTOH lead to Kish getting cut due to viewer outcry over the larger storyline. Was some of it campy, yes, but not all. It was OLTL on the cutting edge of social issues and I was proud.

[EricMontreal22]

Oh I liked it for what it was (even if the Dorian impetus to pretend to be lesbian made no sense--couldn't she have just instead gone on the platform of being pro gay--doing something good again for her own benefit--and gotten the same result?)  I didn't mean to sound like I didn't.  It was actually one of the few camp Carlivati stories I thoroughly enjoyed (and a Jackie Hoffman cameo as a homophobe no less!)  It was just poor timing -- something Valentini probably should really be held responsible for.

[Vee]

Dorian never did anything halfway, though. I understood her instinct for the stunt and got it, though I know Robin didn't like it either.

[EricMontreal22]

That does make sense when you put it that way--I guess it's more that I'm not sure why Llanview suddenly would be so keen on a gay mayor.  A pro-gay mayor I could see (even if still a bit of an idealized fantasy).  I did like the woman who played her assistant/wife (who I think they quickly got rid of with the story)

[All My Shadows]

"Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman" was brought up earlier in this thread, but I want to bring it a little more attention since I very recently watched through the end of the storyline featuring the gay couple. I think MHMH gets looked over often by virtue of it being a non-traditional soap with comedic overtones, but in slowly making my way through the entire run, I've learned that it was just as much a soap as anything in daytime at the time.

 

They did a pretty good, respectable job with their handling of the topic, and not just in a "for 1976" way. Ed and Howard were in love but faced the obstacle of being public with their relationship in different ways. They were friends with Tom and Mary and mixed up in their marital woes, plus we had one of my favorite 70s TV archetypes, the meddling mother/mother-in-law, in Vivian Blaine's Betty. They managed to avoid it being a "gay storyline" and focused more on the differences in the men and their interactions with the Hartmans, but their relationship remained integral to the plot, including Ed's desire to marry Howard. They addressed the topic better than most conventional daytime soaps have over the last 20 years.

[Vee]

It was definitely a bold, progressive vision of the future. But it was soon a viable reality a few years later IRL - it was right.

Her assistant Mel actually hung around quite awhile after as a recurring player; much was made of a spiritual linkage to Mel Hayes IIRC, who was popping up in ghostly appearances in the show's last few years on ABC. I can't remember if Mel ended up getting involved with Lea DeLaria's Madame Delphina - I think so. And the fact is that in 2009-2010, soap grande dame Dorian marrying a black lesbian was a bold huge move for a soap.

[EricMontreal22]

I agree with all that.  The only reason I tend to look over MHMH is it was under none of the restrictions (or few) that the daytime soaps of its time were.  It was syndicated, and usually late at night, so had no network interference, no P&G interference, no assumption that it was playing to a conservative audience of housewives, no concern that children might turn the show on...  MHMH sorta exists for me in its own unique soap universe and didn't have to play by the same rules, in fact part of its point was that it didn't play by the same rules. 

Speaking of I'm curious as to how Marland dealt with homosexuality (was it just to titilate?  I think it was lesbian?) on Showtime's New Day in Eden.

That sounds familiar--and I had forgotten about the whole Mel/Mel thing.

[Soaplovers]

I used to write stories and mini soaps for fun growing up.. and I had envisioned a 21st century Knots Landing type.... with the Abby Fairgate character type of character (shaking up the peaceful zen feel of the cul da sac, etc) with a gay male character that all the women loved and the men took time to warm to with one or two of the men eventually getting it on with this guy and breaking up the marriage

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[EricMontreal22]

Like a lot of the media, GLBT characters seem to be kinda treated all as one issue on soaps--but this raises a good point.  Particularly when it comes to gay or lesbian storylines and how soaps don't seem capable of having both at the same time.  But does one go over better than the other with viewers?  It seems early storyline attempts involved lesbians (though some of this may have just been dictated--as I mentioned originally AMC was gonna do a gay storyline when ABC said they already had a gay male storyline on Dynasty so to make it a lesbian story).  And subsequently it seems like gay male characters have been he focus, with the very major exception of Bianca (which was *partly* because the goal from the start was to make the gay character Erica's child so if she had had a son it probably would have been a gay son) and to a lesser degree the slow build of Olivia and Natalia on GL and of course whatever is going on with Mara now on Y&R. 

But I'm curious since you mention a primarily female soap audience--would they take better to lesbians or gay men?  Is there a diff?  On one hand soaps have traditionally been scared (like Hollywood) of even letting its female fans know that one of their male leads is played by a gay actor as it might ruin their fantasies (a crazy idea but one that I've seen actually play out time and time again with some fans).  On the other hand there have been straight women who have fantasized about gay relationships since at least the Star Trek slash fiction days and with *younger* female audiences that seems to have entered the mainstream (though are younger women watching soaps?)  I mean the only comic reader group that is still growing in N America are readers of YAOI manga translations (gay romances primarily written and targeted at straight young women).  And soaps do have a small but not insignificant history of having a gay male viewership.

 

[Faulkner]

Hmmm. Even though certain fans were in an uproar over Mariah/Tessa, I think it’s telling that the more conservative Bell soaps have felt more comfortable with queer female characters than male ones. (B&B is set in the frickin’ fashion world, for chrissakes.) Those shows have also struggled to cast appealing men to pair with their leading actresses, so they may not want to “waste” solid male performers in same-sex romances, especially when they have to stretch a budget.

 

I guess when I note the female audience, I mean that soaps have mostly focused on relationships and desires from a female perspective, which could conceivably extend to same-sex desires. And I think we can agree that female-to-female intimacy is much more socially acceptable than male-to-male, at least in the U.S. and much of the West. But you’re right: lots of young straight women are ardent fans of gay male media, and, as we saw in the Sony leaks, the folks at DAYS wanted to capitalize on that with Sonny/Will. Openly gay stars like Troye Sivan, Matt Bomer, and Ben Whishaw have massive straight female followings now, and Jonathan Groff just played a horny straight guy quite credibly in Mindhunter. The world didn’t end.

 

Gay men have been loyal fans of daytime for years and deserve representation, sure, but we aren’t the be-all, end-all in the LGBT spectrum. Nor all we all white and/or young (soaps’ obsession with whiteness and youth extends far beyond queer representation, I know). 

[Soapsuds]

A great bi movie I loved was "Making Love" with Kate Jackson , Harry Hamlin and Michael Ontkean. Michael's character married to Kate's character and falling for another man.

[Khan]

In a way, I welcome more (and better) representation of LGBTQ characters on soaps, if only to end the barrage of unexpected pregnancy stories and WTD? stories.

[Khan]

 

She could, if Dorian had been presented as being homophobic, which I don't think she ever was.

 

Much of Dorian's motivation rested on her animosity toward (and jealousy of) Viki.  Having the two run against each other for mayor made sense.  Dorian's decision to run on a pro-gay marriage platform, however, presented a dilemma, since Viki wasn't anti-gay marriage herself.  Ergo, Dorian (and Ron Carlivati) had to up the metaphorical stakes by marrying (female) Mel.

 

Frankly, I think Carlivati should have left the marriage equality angle out of the mayoral campaign storyline completely.  Dorian and Viki were on the same side of that issue, so where's the conflict?

 

In retrospect, though, I certainly buy Dorian's decision to marry another woman for political gain more than I do her giving David Vickers a blow job.

[EricMontreal22]

I never thought of Making Love as a bi movie--at the time it wasn't marketed as such.  But I do think it's actually pretty good -- I know it underperformed and for a while was kinda derided by gay audiences, but I think it succeeds at what it intended to do.

Though in the past they've found ways to manage to make these stories WTD stories

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(kinda).