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28 minutes ago, Vee said:

I've thought about the Zarf story a bit recently. I think looking at it today, aspects of the Zarf/Zoe story were clearly ahead of their time, on paper at least. But in execution, 15 or whatever years ago, it always, always smacked of another attempt to pair Bianca with a cis male actor one way or another IMO. I still believe that was their intent at the network: Anything to avoid letting the women kiss onscreen. It wasn't the first time they'd tested Eden with a male actor (Gabriel Devane, etc.) and if Pratt had his way later on it wouldn't have been the last, though I might've preferred his tacky angle tbh - Bianca getting revenge on her cheating spouse by sleeping with Ryan(!). Anyway, that's a big part of why I still have huge issues with it: I felt a key part of the reasoning involved in telling the story was an attempt to look progressive on an emergent and important issue while actually using it and the character (who was again, played by a cis actor) to keep Bianca in a regressive bind in terms of LGBT visibility on-camera. That isn't to say trans characters can't be paired with cis lesbians, but back then, at that time, I absolutely felt it was a cynical attempt by the network to get around any criticism of pairing Eden with a male actor.

 

I think the actor playing Zarf/Zoe did his best with what was often a ludicrously-written part, but I think he was also often playing to the rafters. I don't think that's what you want for a first-time, sensitive trans story on daytime; I don't think the key angles should be 'this new person will be here for six months and then kicked out' and 'maybe we can use them to keep our lesbian character from kissing cis women'. Trans characters deserve better. But looking at it in 2021, yes, it's undeniable that story, for all the less brilliant aspects, was ahead of where we were IMO.


Thank you for the thoughtful answer and the reason I ask is because I feel exactly the same.
I remember the negative reaction among the fans but looking back an attempt was made to actually tell a groundbreaking storyline and it was more thoughtful than the gimmicky rationale behind it so I don't see it nearly as negatively as the audience did then. There were quite a few layers of tapping into people's misconceptions about gender vs sexuality here that were richer than a soap at that time would usually have the balls to have, even if the EP's motives were icky.

And it is another of these cases that illustrate my theory I mentioned quite a few pages earlier where fan protectiveness around Bianca ended up making the fans reject many Bianca stories that on the merits could have worked.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think the story was very good, or as thoughtful as it claimed to be. I do think it landed on relevant issues, often unintentionally, but I still feel its primary purpose at the time IMO was tapdancing to keep Bianca away from the cis actresses. I don't think that's okay or acceptable.

Edited by Vee
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Posted (edited)

I liked the storyline when it aired. I found the story to be brave, groundbreaking, true to life and incredibly realistic. Sadly, Zarf faced some real life truths in his short time in Pine Valley, and I loved every bit of it! Making him a suspect in the fusion murder mystery was very intentional. My personal earliest memories of seeing trans people on tv were all negative depictions (as weirdos, freaks, psychos, and serial killers.)  it felt like someone behind the scenes were trying to address, at least that’s my perception of what was airing on my screen. 
 

@FrenchBug82 is accurate, since Bianca was a big part of his story, it was rejected as soon as started since it wasn’t the storyline/pairing viewers wanted for her. Ironic if you ask me, so many transgenders feel rejected by Society as it is, people have a way of rejecting what they don’t understand. Was it the story perfect? No. But we loss out in the end, I had hoped to witness the full transformation and seeing Zoe become a fully realized character and a pillar of the community.

Edited by DemetriKane
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Posted (edited)

I think Amy's reactions to Tara and Erica would have been interesting.  Amy was so vocal about the Women's Movement, image her dismay at these two young women abandoning their sisterhood to fight over boys?  If she had lasted it might have been fun to see how she reacted to Tara's lie about her pregnancy, and how it mirrored her own experience with Phillip.  I would also like to hear Amy's take on Erica's modeling career.  In particular, Nick's attraction to Erica, whose value system was so far from Amy's would have made for an interesting story.

 

However, I also think she would have vilified Phoebe and kept her from becoming the beloved character that she evolved into.  Someone would have needed to voice the contrasting opinion to Amy's liberalism, and I'm afraid that would have fallen mostly on Phoebe's shoulders.  Luckily, Phoebe was humanized by her relationships with Benny and Langley who taught her the ill effects of snobbery. 

 

Also, in these pics, Ruth makes a housedress and cardigan look comfortable, but achieving that hairdo seems like a painful amount of backcombing.

Edited by j swift
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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, j swift said:

I think Amy's contrast to Tara and Erica would have been interesting.  Amy was so vocal about equality and the women's movement, image her dismay at these two young women fighting over boys?  If she had lasted it might have been fun to see how she reacted to Tara's lie about her pregnancy, and how it mirrored her own experience with Phillip.  I would also like to hear Amy's take on Erica's modeling career and a discussion on white privilege with Angie.

 

However, I also think she would have vilified Phoebe and kept her from becoming the beloved character that she evolved into.  Someone would have needed to voice the contrasting opinion to Amy liberalism, and I'm afraid that would have fallen mostly on Phoebe's shoulders.  Luckily, Phoebe was humanized by her relationships with Benny and Langley who taught her the ill effects of snobbery. 


Amy crashing a Daughters Of Fine Lineage meeting would’ve been fun, putting everyone in their place - Aunt Phoebe, Enid Nelson, Juanita Ramsey.

 

Amy may have admired Erica’s business acumen and the fact that she developed her own brand (through nothing but determination and hard-work).

 

Btw, this statue (or is it a painting??) in Phoebe’s living room intrigues me.

It appears to perhaps be some Roman (or Greek) god(dess).

Can anyone identify it??

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Edited by Pine Charles
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38 minutes ago, Pine Charles said:

Do you wish the character of Amy had lasted longer??

The casting of Rosemary Prinz put paid to Amy lasting longer initially, but I think she should have returned at some point.

Maybe Amy could have returned played by Kathleen Noone when the show went to an hour and played some of those stories. 

Was Amy ever mentioned in the 70's after the first 6 months?

Seems odd she never returned to see her family...

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33 minutes ago, j swift said:

Also, in these pics, Ruth makes a housedress and cardigan look comfortable, but achieving that hairdo seems like a painful amount of backcombing.

Ruth’s 1970 hair was its’ own character.

 

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42 minutes ago, j swift said:

Also, in these pics, Ruth makes a housedress and cardigan look comfortable, but achieving that hairdo seems like a painful amount of backcombing.

 

Mary Fickett looks like a giant next to Rosemary Prinz.

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On 7/3/2021 at 1:57 AM, DemetriKane said:

Whomever came up with the storyline, made a major mistake imo. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed that “will”storyline; very fun and interesting. But robbed the show of many more future storylines. Will should have been the resident Cortlandt rascal way until the early 2000s.

 

Will's death felt premature for sure and for shock value. I also figured it was to make room for the next baddie, Alec.

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40 minutes ago, Pine Charles said:

Ruth’s 1970 hair was its’ own character.

I guess the nurse's cap goes on the back of the head because they couldn't fit it into frame on the top.

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2 hours ago, KMan101 said:

 

Will's death felt premature for sure and for shock value. I also figured it was to make room for the next baddie, Alec.

Exactly! Shock value and to give janet some street cred LOL! I didn’t like losing him. I understood  the show was in a transitioning period, and was trying to reinvent for the new decade, but Will should’ve been around much longer. The burned through so many more story options by killing him so early, imagine him sticking around long enough to be the one that rape’s Bianca? 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

Sorry if I seemed brusque. We all do it - I just didn't want you to feel confused if no one had replied to your post. 

 

Oh, no indeed! I was hoping my response didn't sound catty. I legit feel like a slacker for not simply going back a few pages, especially considering it was mentioned a day before Ray's passing, which I came here to post about.

 

11 hours ago, FrenchBug82 said:


Looking back what did people feel about that storyline then? And now?

 

Unpopular opinion, but I thought it looked good on paper. I remember people being upset at Zoe being a lesbian transwoman because it was perceived as just a way to get Bianca "with a man," but I wonder how that would play today. Jeff Carlson didn't half-play that character, that's for sure, and the chemistry was there with Eden.

 

5 hours ago, Pine Charles said:

@All My Shadows

 

Do you wish the character of Amy had lasted longer??

 

It would have been interesting to see her last longer or visit more, but I always felt she was such a character "of the time" that her politics would have softened over the years. Or, maybe Amy would have evolved into the character that Rosemary would go on to play on How to Survive a Marriage (feminist psychologist). Maybe she could have been one of the few characters allowed to see Tad as a pig and call him out on it.

 

Re: Ruth's hair. I've been amazed by that poor nurse's cap holding on for dear life for years and years. You just know something's in there holding it up.

Edited by All My Shadows
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