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edgeofnik

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8 hours ago, lilyredd said:

I think there is an interesting contrast of Lily v Andy. Now Andy had a very involved mother who was nothing like Lucinda or Iva for that matter- but his family had crap loads of drama (it’s a soap) and his father was really a bad guy- John raped his mother among many other crimes. His parents worked and with a father and stepfather who were doctors they were busy - the show would have John and/or Bob at the hospital at all hours. One could argue too busy to be constantly with Andy - something Lily and the writers constantly drag Lucinda. 
 

As to Lily, they established Lucinda was always busy and she was devious. The problem is trying to sell Lily not having warmth and love growing up- or she was lonely (go make some friends at school or the country club- your mama ain’t your confidant or playmate she is your mother)-I never bought it - that is not what I saw on my screen- I saw a character constantly adored. I remember a scene where Lily whines to Holden she grew up without love- now kids can truly believe they are not loved but it was clear onscreen that Lucinda loved Lily. A simple fix for me would have been someone calling her out on her nonsense - they did it with Andy and his drinking, with John and his crap, etc.  I think that was the crux - letting her crap go unchallenged- while the writer may have wanted her to have unattractive qualities - in the totality of the circumstances, it came off as everyone was suppose to agree with her and like those qualities. 
 

About John, what happened with him and Dee. How was what he did not rape?

I think they said that Dee assumed John was Brad (was it Brad?) and as John had no idea that she did not know it was him, it was consensual. My question is who the hell wants to watch this type of story in the first place - I know it was a leadup to Who Shot John? and that had a lot of good dramatic moments, but it's just very  gross.

Lucinda and Meg and Dusty tended to be the people who called Lily out. I think part of the reason Lily seemed snotty was because Martha played the role in a bratty manner, with less of the layers that Marland's previous Lily types, like Genie Francis and Kristen Vigard, brought to their roles. 

I loved Lucinda, but I do think that she was often a distant and easily distracted mother figure to Lily when Lily was growing up. Yes, she had a beautiful home, a good education, and servants, which she probably should have not taken for granted as much, but she also had a mother who was wildly out of control, flinging herself into bitter corporate and personal rivalries and bedhopping with the wrong man time and time again. Lucinda was a mess, and no matter how much you love your child, that is going to have an effect. 

It's interesting what you mention about Andy. I feel like this was explored somewhat in his alcoholism story - we saw how much Kim's busy career and John being John meant he was lonelier and more prone to struggle - but I do think there was more emphasis on "tough love" for Andy than there was for Lily and more emphasis on the consequences of Andy's selfishness and insecurity - not just with nearly killing Lien, but also when his obsession with Julie helped refuel Courtney's eating disorder. I suppose it's because viewers expected to see certain behaviors as typical of young ingenues, but not young men, especially Marland-era ingenues, who were often coddled to no end. 

I will say that as tired I sometimes got of Lily turning up her nose at Lucinda, they did manage to show she loved her. I appreciated this more after seeing the nasty, mean-spirited way failing soaps like GH wrote Emily Quartermaine treating Alan and Monica, who would have been better off not even bothering to adopt her.

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He goes out of his way to make the story more complicated than it really was. 

Thanks for posting the review. I just wish more people who appreciated soaps were assigned to write about them at the time. 

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17 hours ago, KMan101 said:

Julie appeared too? Wow. I had the same memory as others that she was off-screen and 'dying' or having cancer. I guess I didn't pay much attention at the time. I didn't have the appreciation for the character then I do now that I've watched more of her so I guess it was easy to forget. I definitely remember her 1999 appearance. How easy she fit right back in.

Here's a small photo from 2002 that shows Aaron with Caleb and Julie both

Please register in order to view this content

 

When did Julie appear in 1999? I know she was present at Holden and Lily's wedding in 1998, but I can't remember her '99 appearance

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5 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I think they said that Dee assumed John was Brad (was it Brad?) and as John had no idea that she did not know it was him, it was consensual. My question is who the hell wants to watch this type of story in the first place - I know it was a leadup to Who Shot John? and that had a lot of good dramatic moments, but it's just very  gross.

Lucinda and Meg and Dusty tended to be the people who called Lily out. I think part of the reason Lily seemed snotty was because Martha played the role in a bratty manner, with less of the layers that Marland's previous Lily types, like Genie Francis and Kristen Vigard, brought to their roles. 

I loved Lucinda, but I do think that she was often a distant and easily distracted mother figure to Lily when Lily was growing up. Yes, she had a beautiful home, a good education, and servants, which she probably should have not taken for granted as much, but she also had a mother who was wildly out of control, flinging herself into bitter corporate and personal rivalries and bedhopping with the wrong man time and time again. Lucinda was a mess, and no matter how much you love your child, that is going to have an effect. 

It's interesting what you mention about Andy. I feel like this was explored somewhat in his alcoholism story - we saw how much Kim's busy career and John being John meant he was lonelier and more prone to struggle - but I do think there was more emphasis on "tough love" for Andy than there was for Lily and more emphasis on the consequences of Andy's selfishness and insecurity - not just with nearly killing Lien, but also when his obsession with Julie helped refuel Courtney's eating disorder. I suppose it's because viewers expected to see certain behaviors as typical of young ingenues, but not young men, especially Marland-era ingenues, who were often coddled to no end. 

I will say that as tired I sometimes got of Lily turning up her nose at Lucinda, they did manage to show she loved her. I appreciated this more after seeing the nasty, mean-spirited way failing soaps like GH wrote Emily Quartermaine treating Alan and Monica, who would have been better off not even bothering to adopt her.

Your point is well-taken. I have a blind spot when it comes to characters or people I do not like. I tend to concentrate on every piece of negative I find about that character so I apologize for harping too often on Lily. It does not help that every episode that pops up on YouTube is one where she is just ridiculous. Also, I think there was a point where Marland was going to try to claim Lucinda was abusive because there were episodes where they had Lily acting afraid of her mother which I thought was nonsense. I found Lucinda fabulous so there is another blind spot.

 

That rape story with John sounds awful and demonstrates the constant erasing of women’s experience with sexual assault and aggression on daytime tv. How do you not know who you are having sex with- was she drunk or drugged, blind or blindfolded? Wtf? 
 

 

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8 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I think they said that Dee assumed John was Brad (was it Brad?) and as John had no idea that she did not know it was him, it was consensual. My question is who the hell wants to watch this type of story in the first place - I know it was a leadup to Who Shot John? and that had a lot of good dramatic moments, but it's just very  gross.

Lucinda and Meg and Dusty tended to be the people who called Lily out. I think part of the reason Lily seemed snotty was because Martha played the role in a bratty manner, with less of the layers that Marland's previous Lily types, like Genie Francis and Kristen Vigard, brought to their roles. 

I loved Lucinda, but I do think that she was often a distant and easily distracted mother figure to Lily when Lily was growing up. Yes, she had a beautiful home, a good education, and servants, which she probably should have not taken for granted as much, but she also had a mother who was wildly out of control, flinging herself into bitter corporate and personal rivalries and bedhopping with the wrong man time and time again. Lucinda was a mess, and no matter how much you love your child, that is going to have an effect. 

It's interesting what you mention about Andy. I feel like this was explored somewhat in his alcoholism story - we saw how much Kim's busy career and John being John meant he was lonelier and more prone to struggle - but I do think there was more emphasis on "tough love" for Andy than there was for Lily and more emphasis on the consequences of Andy's selfishness and insecurity - not just with nearly killing Lien, but also when his obsession with Julie helped refuel Courtney's eating disorder. I suppose it's because viewers expected to see certain behaviors as typical of young ingenues, but not young men, especially Marland-era ingenues, who were often coddled to no end. 

I will say that as tired I sometimes got of Lily turning up her nose at Lucinda, they did manage to show she loved her. I appreciated this more after seeing the nasty, mean-spirited way failing soaps like GH wrote Emily Quartermaine treating Alan and Monica, who would have been better off not even bothering to adopt her.

I was about 8 or 9 when Dee/John happened. Don't know if I'm remembering right, but I feel like there was a scene afterwards where Dee looked disheveled and David asked her if John forced her and she said yes. I was completely confused at the trial when she seemed to say he didn't. I didn't understand much except thinking John did something bad to her, he was going to be punished, but then she said he didn't do it. Till this day I still don't understand what happened. Does anyone know if a scene was played showing exactly what happened? 

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2 hours ago, lilyredd said:

Your point is well-taken. I have a blind spot when it comes to characters or people I do not like. I tend to concentrate on every piece of negative I find about that character so I apologize for harping too often on Lily. It does not help that every episode that pops up on YouTube is one where she is just ridiculous. Also, I think there was a point where Marland was going to try to claim Lucinda was abusive because there were episodes where they had Lily acting afraid of her mother which I thought was nonsense. I found Lucinda fabulous so there is another blind spot.

Oh believe me, I am not going to shame you for finding Lily tiresome. I do too (at least Martha's Lily). It's just that after I went back and watched 1986 episodes I understood more of why Lily was so pouty and judgmental toward Lucinda. I adore Lucinda but she was the definition of hot mess for much of that period. 

I would agree Lucinda was not abusive.

17 minutes ago, bboy875 said:

I was about 8 or 9 when Dee/John happened. Don't know if I'm remembering right, but I feel like there was a scene afterwards where Dee looked disheveled and David asked her if John forced her and she said yes. I was completely confused at the trial when she seemed to say he didn't. I didn't understand much except thinking John did something bad to her, he was going to be punished, but then she said he didn't do it. Till this day I still don't understand what happened. Does anyone know if a scene was played showing exactly what happened? 

I think there was a promo uploaded not long ago - can't remember. 

@Broderickthank you for finding the screenshot of Julie. I had no memory of her ever appearing in 2002. By then I was so disgusted by the show, and by Hogan Sheffer, I was not watching very often. 

She appeared in 1998, not 1999.

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19 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Don't get me wrong @Broderick, I don't believe that the writing intentionally set Lily up to look like a jerk, a spoiled princess yes, but not an intentional jerk. Lily never believed that her intentions were anything but good and she was, at her core a very needy teenager by the time the Snyders entered the canvas. Unless, the character is a complete psychopath or a serial killer, a writer usually finds some empathy for the characters she or he writes. 

I also believe that Marland likely believed Martha a capable enough actress that she could play this type of a character and not totally alienate the viewers. Lily and Holden's popularity as a couple bore out that guess as being correct.

 

If you read Marland's bible for the first six months Lily is very well defined as a spoiled little b*tch..and actually she seemed more fun and more sexual...I think they toned it down to go with Martha's energy and to make her more hesitant about wanting Holden to get it going..so not to scare off that age group of viewers.

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3 hours ago, lilyredd said:

That rape story with John sounds awful and demonstrates the constant erasing of women’s experience with sexual assault and aggression on daytime tv. How do you not know who you are having sex with- was she drunk or drugged, blind or blindfolded? Wtf? 

Dee was no go getting bright bulb to begin with...she seemed half drugged every day..but she took a sleeping pill....thought it was pervey Brad ( she moaned..Braaadddd..) but it was actually pervey John and did the deed..I think she "woke up" in the middle of it...anyway, it was offensive on all levels.  I think if the Dobsons kind of wanted us to see it as David pressing Dee to charge John, and the Hughes and the rest of the town backing him up as John was a total pariah at that time. But the problem was it made David into a creepy ass to put his daughter through a trial, made everyone else in town look almost as bad, and both Dee and Ellen seemed like passive drippy women being led by their noses by David. So really, resources of the police and the courts were wasted as two influential families indulged in a revenge suit against an old foe.

And John was ran over not shot (that happened later) and blinded. Right after that we had the writers strike and endless scenes in Margos cottage with John...and then Dee visiting to try to get a divorce, then Tom or Brad yelling at John, Brad gazing into the sky when Dee's name was mentioned..Lisa chasing after pervy Brad...James twirling his mustache as a dumb Margo couldn't see what was going on, Ellen worried about a missing David, and a bunch of newbies running around town..it was a horrible summer!

 

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11 minutes ago, Mitch said:

And John was ran over not shot (that happened later) and blinded. Right after that we had the writers strike and endless scenes in Margos cottage with John...and then Dee visiting to try to get a divorce, then Tom or Brad yelling at John, Brad gazing into the sky when Dee's name was mentioned..Lisa chasing after pervy Brad...James twirling his mustache as a dumb Margo couldn't see what was going on, Ellen worried about a missing David, and a bunch of newbies running around town..it was a horrible summer!

Thanks. I had forgotten all that John and Stewart melodrama wasn't at the same time. It sounds bad and tends to mostly just be dull whenever I see footage from that period. Maybe it played out better live, I don't know.

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2 hours ago, Mitch said:

If you read Marland's bible for the first six months Lily is very well defined as a spoiled little b*tch..and actually she seemed more fun and more sexual...I think they toned it down to go with Martha's energy and to make her more hesitant about wanting Holden to get it going..so not to scare off that age group of viewers.

 

From personal experience, I know that you can have a character very thoroughly outlined and imbued with certain specific characteristics, but that can be moderated as soon as you hear those first snippets of dialogue coming out of the actor's mouth.

And even a spoiled little b*tch has to be imbued with some humanity, or else she/he lacks utter viability as a character. No writer wants to write that. 

Also, daytime dramas tend to have a heightened sense of melodrama, sometimes bordering on the maudlin in the worst cases.

Lily and Holden/Lily and eve Lily/Dusty had very real and active canvases, so something obviously worked, fawning stories and all.

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Just now, MichaelGL said:

The rape storyline was penned by the Dobson's correct? 

Yes, and at that time it was criticized as it was a retread of Ed/Holly/Roger. thought watered down...(it was a mistrial...) and besides John, with dull characters.

 

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27 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

And even a spoiled little b*tch has to be imbued with some humanity, or else she/he lacks utter viability as a character. No writer wants to write that. 

Yes. But I do think soap writers have a tendency to confuse "humanity" with "sanding off the edges".
I do think a good writer could pull a raging bitch who is likeable and yet does not stop being a bitch or spoiled.
Too often, when TPTP decide a character is a lead, then suddenly all the thorns, asperities, ugly sides of a character's personality are shaved off AND forgotten and they become generic.
That was one admirable thing about Lucinda for so long that she managed to hold center-stage without ceasing to be horrible at times. And I think there was plenty of room for Lily to spoiled and brattish AND compelling without trying to brainwash us into thinking she was sweet.

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