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As The World Turns Discussion Thread


edgeofnik

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Don't get me wrong @Broderick, I don't believe that the writing intentionally set Lily up to look like a jerk, a spoiled princess yes, but not an intentional jerk. Lily never believed that her intentions were anything but good and she was, at her core a very needy teenager by the time the Snyders entered the canvas. Unless, the character is a complete psychopath or a serial killer, a writer usually finds some empathy for the characters she or he writes. 

I also believe that Marland likely believed Martha a capable enough actress that she could play this type of a character and not totally alienate the viewers. Lily and Holden's popularity as a couple bore out that guess as being correct.

 

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I do think, as had been discussed a few pages back, that Lily was not recognizing her own privilege and was a bit spoiled and the "poverty tourism", the unconscious attraction towards a "simpler" way of life that she was charmed by because she didn't have to live with the actual concrete hardships was a subtext of her attraction to the Snyders.
She was idealizing the "warmth" of that home because she contrasted it with her own but that was partly because it is easier to idealize a lifestyle in theory when you have the financial security to do so.
So both explanations are true at the same time.
And I do think Lily would have been more interesting if the writers had dared being a tad more explicit on the former even if it didn't make her sympathetic. A character with layers is always compelling and it didn't have to make her a bad person to acknowledge how spoiled she was and how clueless of it she was.
I wish Holden, in one of their break-ups, had really dug deep into her about that because that actually would have made me like them more if he understood who she really was and still loved her. 
It is weird that the writers clearly understood that subtext enough that we could see it and yet were too afraid to make it an actual thing and wanted us to cling to the idealized version of Lily.
 

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Yeah, as annoying as Lily was, I wouldn't go as far as saying she was "poverty touring" the Snyders. She was a spoiled, bratty but lonely child. She gravitated to them because of their family life, her attraction to Holden, and no doubt (at least at first) because it irritated her mother. And she did offer to help them financially. All of their rich friends did, at one time or another. Emma would time and time again refuse. I still recall, SMH, how Jarrod and Cal vied for Emma's affection by buying her new appliances. Which were returned, or eventually disappeared, and the older versions returned.

Lily was an annoying twit, and if she were being written now, her breakdowns would've been treated a little more seriously. 

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I think there is an interesting contrast of Lily v Andy. Now Andy had a very involved mother who was nothing like Lucinda or Iva for that matter- but his family had crap loads of drama (it’s a soap) and his father was really a bad guy- John raped his mother among many other crimes. His parents worked and with a father and stepfather who were doctors they were busy - the show would have John and/or Bob at the hospital at all hours. One could argue too busy to be constantly with Andy - something Lily and the writers constantly drag Lucinda. 
 

As to Lily, they established Lucinda was always busy and she was devious. The problem is trying to sell Lily not having warmth and love growing up- or she was lonely (go make some friends at school or the country club- your mama ain’t your confidant or playmate she is your mother)-I never bought it - that is not what I saw on my screen- I saw a character constantly adored. I remember a scene where Lily whines to Holden she grew up without love- now kids can truly believe they are not loved but it was clear onscreen that Lucinda loved Lily. A simple fix for me would have been someone calling her out on her nonsense - they did it with Andy and his drinking, with John and his crap, etc.  I think that was the crux - letting her crap go unchallenged- while the writer may have wanted her to have unattractive qualities - in the totality of the circumstances, it came off as everyone was suppose to agree with her and like those qualities. 
 

About John, what happened with him and Dee. How was what he did not rape?

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Wasn't it Mary Ellis Bunim (former producer of World Turns in the mid-1980s) who created the show, about fifteen years later, where the two heiresses (Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie) go "slumming" for fun?

I'm not diminishing Lily as a character.  As FrenchBug82 explained far more eloquently than I did, it appears that the "poverty tour" was an integral part of Lily's motivation and characterization that simply wasn't addressed other than in the subtext of the scenes.  On the superficial surface, Lily was looking for a warm home full of love, and she felt she'd found that with the Synders.  But she could've found that in a variety of other places (including her own home, with a little more effort on her part).   She seemed to have a pre-"Paris Hilton Complex" where we can spend our days entertaining ourselves in poverty, and then rush home to our trust funds at night.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I was just thinking about how amusing it was that the women of east coast soaps had such sophisticated fashion sensibilities in their choices of clothes, makeup and hair styles. 

I guess it would make sense that Barbara, Lisa, and Carly would keep up with the trends, but it is fun to watch the 90s episodes to see how often the other women are wearing major designers.  It was also a different time when everyone was much less casual in their daily attire (from 90210 to Clueless every young woman wore a blazer with every outfit).  However, I was watching an episode and in one day in Oakdale, Lucinda wore an Escada suit with coordinating coat and shoes, Connor wore a Donna Karan suit, and even Kim Hughes was wearing Armani head to toe.  And think about how avant garde Kim and Carly's haircuts would seem to be in such a small suburban city.

I'm not dissing the midwest, but one wonders about the authenticity of the availability (and affordability) of these small town women wearing high end fashion.  I doubt that we would see many women in a suburban midwestern Target today looking as chic as those ladies.  It wasn't just that their clothes were expensive, but it was complete polished looks that they tuned out on a daily basis (with the obvious exception being Emma Snyder).  In real life, Ellie would have needed another farm just to store all of her hats.  It is fun to look at, and I never questioned it when I watched them at the time, but upon rewatch, the fashions styling was really remarkable.

Edited by j swift
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15 minutes ago, j swift said:

I was just thinking about how amusing it was that the women of east coast soaps had such sophisticated fashion sensibilities in their choices of clothes, makeup and hair styles. 

I guess it would make sense that Barbara, Lisa, and Carly would keep up with the trends, but it is fun to watch the 90s episodes to see how often the other women are wearing major designers.  It was also a different time when everyone was much less casual in their daily attire (from 90210 to Clueless every young woman wore a blazer with every outfit).  However, I was watching an episode and in one day in Oakdale, Lucinda wore an Escada suit with coordinating coat and shoes, Connor wore a Donna Karan suit, and even Kim Hughes was wearing Armani head to toe.  And think about how avant garde Kim and Carly's haircuts would seem to be in such a small suburban city.

I'm not dissing the midwest, but one wonders about the authenticity of the availability (and affordability) of these small town women wearing high end fashion.  I doubt that we would see many women in a suburban midwestern Target today looking as chic as those ladies.  It wasn't just that their clothes were expensive, but it was complete polished looks that they tuned out on a daily basis (with the obvious exception being Emma Snyder).  In real life, Ellie would have needed another farm just to store all of her hats.  It is fun to look at, and I never questioned it when I watched them at the time, but upon rewatch, the fashions styling was really remarkable.

Years ago, the Toledo Museum of Art showed an exhibition of impressionist paintings. One of the national media nightly programs covered the exhibition. They decided to find the most stereotypical looking people to interview who knew little nor cared about art. This exhibition was attended by thousands in this city. What this shows is people want to believe that if you live in X you have this and you live in y you have this. The truth is you will find people in the Midwest with lots money and they spend it. It totally made sense for these wealthy characters to wear their wealth. I don’t take it as a diss to the Midwest because there is much to not like about it here, but one can find someone just as fashionable in Akron as in New York. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, lilyredd said:

The truth is you will find people in the Midwest with lots money and they spend it. It totally made sense for these wealthy characters to wear their wealth. I don’t take it as a diss to the Midwest because there is much to not like about it here, but one can find someone just as fashionable in Akron as in New York. 

Thank you for not seeing it as disrespectful because that was not my intent.  To me, it is just remarkable that daytime shows in the 1990s thought nothing of styling the wife of a small town doctor in Italian silks with an asymmetrical hair cut.  As you said, anyone with money could buy those outfits, but the sophisticated styling was what stood out to me.  My amusement was derived from the idea that they valued urbane glamour over authenticity of the setting, but who could blame them, given their access to such high end designer clothes, jewels, and stylists.  And it is stark contrast to the costumes of the later years of the show.

Edited by j swift
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Midwest.has wealthy pockets in it...and didn't they always reference Chicago and the North shore as well? 

People dressed up in the 80s/early 90s.  I had relatives that lived around Peoria IL...smaller towns.  And they dressed nicely in blazers, hair done, and jewelry.  Either to go out or just in their day to day life.  2000s is when that trend changed (probably because of inflation and flat salaries...so less money for clothes and accessories..more to basic living 

Regarding Lily, I do recall reading in Marland's story bible that he viewed Lily as spoiled and that Holden would bring her back down to earth.

I do recall a few 1985 episodes before Marland joined where she was moody with Dusty...and she would talk to Sierra and Shannon about him.  And I think both of them would clue Lily in on her being unfair with Dusty.

 

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35 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I do recall a few 1985 episodes before Marland joined where she was moody with Dusty...and she would talk to Sierra and Shannon about him.  And I think both of them would clue Lily in on her being unfair with Dusty.

Dusty absolutely challenged Lily on her attitude and it went into '86 and '87. 

I always liked how Dusty was written without guile. He's the type of character that would be called "boring" as today's soap fans seem only to gravitate towards "grey" () characters.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Broderick said:

On the superficial surface, Lily was looking for a warm home full of love, and she felt she'd found that with the Synders.  But she could've found that in a variety of other places (including her own home, with a little more effort on her part).   She seemed to have a pre-"Paris Hilton Complex" where we can spend our days entertaining ourselves in poverty, and then rush home to our trust funds at night.  

I won't disagree that Lily could've put more into her relationships with her own family---but other than Lucinda, her family wasn't stable. She found out about Sierra as a teen, and then she was off and married and spent long periods presumed dead. There was a while when Lucinda and John were married where they had Andy, Duke and Bianca in the house as well, but that dissolved with the marriage.  I can't even recall her and Andy ever being very chummy, tbh. 

Lily was an attention vaccuum. She had the Snyders, Cal, Josh, whoever her boyfriend/lover was at the time, and eventually Rose. She was borderline narcissistic. But so was Lucinda.  

Edited by P.J.
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18 hours ago, Broderick said:

Yep, that's the girl --- Ariana Munker a/k/a Ariana Chase.   Her bio shows that she was born in 1960, so she was only about 17 or 18 when she joined World Turns as Melinda Gray.  She didn't have any "bad" soap habits then; she was just young, extremely cute, and a natural little actress.  What I remember about her is that Beau Spencer (of Spencer Hotel fame) was married to Annie Stewart, who studied all the time (med school).   Beau was bored.  Annie was dull.  That cute little Ariana Munker was tempting Beau to cheat on Annie.  Whenever he'd start thinking about possibly porking Melinda Gray, Chuck Mangione's tune "Feels So Good" would start playing in the background.  He finally did bang Melinda Gray, and then I believe he actually divorced Annie Stewart and married Melinda Gray.   My main recollection is Ariana Munker looked like she'd be a lot more FUN than Annie.   That's probably NOT what the writers were going for (viewer allegiance to Melinda Gray), but that's what they got from little boys in the audience lol.   

She also was Marianne Randolph on Another World before ATWT. Beautiful actress 

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Posted (edited)

From Slick Jones in the SoapHoppers thread

  •  

eRgBJBo.jpg

 

ARIANA MUENKER

 

THE GUIDING LIGHT        Christie Rogers     1971

AS THE WORLD TURNS      Carol Ann Stewart   (AKA Annie Stewart)  1972-73

THE DOCTORS     (Temporary)    Greta Van Allen Powers     1973

ANOTHER WORLD     Marianne Randolph   1975-77

AS THE WORLD TURNS     Melinda Gray Spencer   1977-80

RYAN'S HOPE     Amanda Kirkland     1983

GUIDING LIGHT     Christine ____Valere    1986-87

DAYS OF OUR LIVES   Kimberly Brady Donovan Collier    1992-93

Edited by Paul Raven
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