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16 hours ago, victoria foxton said:

The dialogue doesn't sound very Marlandish. I wish there was more of the Doug Cummings saga. The stuff with Doug is giving me Henry Slezar/EON vibes. I didn't realize John already knew Lucy's real name. Years before DM did her origin story. It's nice to see Jay still around. Also like seeing Jay and Heather playing  supporting roles. In the Cummings story. Marie was a hoot. The show felt very vibrant and edgy.  And not stuffy like it became later. 

 

I could be wrong as there were no credits at the end of the episode, but I think this (with the Halloween party) was written under headwriter Susie Bedsow Horgan. Though we know Doug Marland was first credited as headwriter sometime in November 1985, he *might* have been there beforehand (October), tweaking scripts and storyline points though SBH was still being credited as HW. I'd venture to say that the Marie Kovac mystery was possible tied deeper into the Doug Cummings storyline than originally intended.

 

A few observations about this episode:

 

  1. Many viewers/critics like to put the "herding" of actors at the feet of Marland, but... if this WAS SBH's writing, she sure did a good Marland-esque crowd. As someone else pointed out, the Halloween party was a bit frenetic (music, tens of actors, and then add costumes), but...watching it just felt very ATWT to me. Still, you can appreciate why P&G might have said, "trim this cast!"
  2. I had forgotten that Jay Connors was still on the canvas by this point. My memory would've said he left around the same time that Kirk McColl and Marcy Thompson did. Let's face it. His long-term story was based around his mother, Dorothy Connors, having had an affair with and killing Whit McColl...and that Kirk was also his half-brother via Dorothy's affair with Whit. With Whit long dead, Dorothy dead (did that pesky brain tumor kill her?), Kirk gone within weeks, and the fact that Jay was not a McColl, what was he still doing on the canvas? Still, every character (such as Kevin) should have friends--and better established other characters than someone appearing out of nowhere. Same thing with Heather Dalton. I guess by this point she was no longer with Tucker? Was he already off the canvas? It was like they had people still on contract and needed to do something with them, so... connect them with others around their character's age!
  3. Mady Kaplan was the niece of classic Hollywood-era actor Van Heflin, so that may explain why she was a fairly decent actor in this episode. What I find interesting is that Kaplan was not "pretty"--she had an interesting face, but it wasn't part of the typical soap castings beginning in those days ("pretty, pretty, pretty--who cares whether or not they can act?!"). Nice that TPTB must've cast her on talent rather than primarily looks. I wonder whether or not SBH had planned to write off/kill off Marie from the beginning? She certainly could've caused problems for Kevin and Frannie (had they stayed together) and had tension with Jay and Heather for longer than the time she was on the show. And speaking of a surprise, what was up with Julianne Moore's acting choices during that scene with Eileen Fulton? At one point, she was shrieking and over the top and then she finally reigned things in. It was just a surprise to see.
  4. Lucinda, of course, was SO Lucinda...but the last several years, I've gotten to know Elizabeth Hubbard's work as Dr. Althea Davis on "The Doctors" and...wow. You see her as Lucinda and appreciate her talent. Sometimes actors leave one show and go to another (or later get a job on another show) and they're basically playing that same range, the same character. Having watched ATWT over the years, obviously I knew what Lucinda was like with EH, but... man, she was a million miles away from Althea! Just a "hmm!" moment I'm sharing. I wonder whether La Hubbard just decided when she took the role of Lucinda that she, a millionaire, was going to be over the top (in a good way)? Rarely, if ever, was Althea over the top, IMO. Dramatic, yes. OTT, no.
  5. Someone else pointed out that it was later revealed that Iva Snyder was behind those disturbing phone calls that Lucinda was receiving (OTT, anyone? LOL) basically threatening to reveal Lily's parentage. I'll bet anything that SBH still hadn't decided who exactly was on the other end of that phone line and MARLAND chose to create Iva (and those numerous Snyders), make her Lily's mother...and put her on the other end of those mysterious, threatening phone calls.

Though I did like this episode and it still felt comfortable/familiar, I also liked ATWT during the Marland era--when everything seemed to eventually revolve around the Snyders, the Snyder farm, and Lily-Lily-Lily.

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9 minutes ago, DanMan869 said:

Mady Kaplan was the niece of classic Hollywood-era actor Van Heflin, so that may explain why she was a fairly decent actor in this episode. What I find interesting is that Kaplan was not "pretty"--she had an interesting face, but it wasn't part of the typical soap castings beginning in those days ("pretty, pretty, pretty--who cares whether or not they can act?!").

and the daughter of frances heflin, who played erika kane’s mother, mona, on all my children.

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1 hour ago, DanMan869 said:

could be wrong as there were no credits at the end of the episode, but I think this (with the Halloween party) was written under headwriter Susie Bedsow Horgan. Though we know Doug Marland was first credited as headwriter sometime in November 1985, he *might* have been there beforehand (October), tweaking scripts and storyline points though SBH was still being credited as HW. I'd venture to say that the Marie Kovac mystery was possible tied deeper into the Doug Cummings storyline than originally intended.

Interesting..I always thought that Marland created Doug Cummings and started the Kim has a stalker story.  If this was a combo of Marland and Horgan they were a dream team as this is the ATWT I loved..more free wheeling and full of energy, some camp, tied to the core families...the "Snyder Incest years,' as I call them were so drab and boring...someone was having a mercy killing, or being raped and afraid of getting HIV, or there was a teen alky, or getting Alzheimers or of course, being stabbed by a letter opener..(which actually is fun..) I think my appreciation of Marland really stems from these years and not the bulk of his drab last years.

 

Speaking of drab...Iva wasnt the only one who lost their spark...I forgot Shannon was fun before the "Aye LASSIE" days.

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1 hour ago, DanMan869 said:

Heather Dalton. I guess by this point she was no longer with Tucker? Was he already off the canvas? It was like they had people still on contract and needed to do something with them, so... connect them with others around their character's age!

 

Tucker was gone by 1984, I think and according to the actor who played him, Eddie Earl Hatch, his departure was not handled very well, he left with hard feelings for the show's execs, in particular.

Once Steve and Betsy became a super couple, Tucker's role as confidant and business partner to Steve already seemed diminished by degrees, and the wedding sealed his (Tucker's) status, imo. Tucker left town and Roy Franklin entered, sometime in '85 and Roy and Heather dated and eventually got engaged, etc.

It seems that around '86, there was at least an attempt to build a family around Roy, whereas there was never any attempt to give Tucker family, from what it looked like.

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17 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

Iva must've been stalking Lucinda for months, as it was several months before she was revealed to be behind those phone calls.

 

I could see how penny-pinching P&G might have thought the cast needed to be culled. Those Halloween party scenes are chaotic.

 

1 hour ago, DanMan869 said:

 

1 hour ago, DanMan869 said:
  1. Many viewers/critics like to put the "herding" of actors at the feet of Marland, but... if this WAS SBH's writing, she sure did a good Marland-esque crowd. As someone else pointed out, the Halloween party was a bit frenetic (music, tens of actors, and then add costumes), but...watching it just felt very ATWT to me. Still, you can appreciate why P&G might have said, "trim this cast!"

 

Me, I was that someone.

 

I also happened to think that the big chaotic group gatherings had become a feature pre-Marland, if you look at events like Tom and Margo's zany wedding in the park (where Tom and Margo literally "herded" friends and family, in various states of dress/undress) to the park and even events like costume balls and dances from as far back as 1981, you can see that that wild unpredictability in some of those sequences. By the way, I enjoyed those big events. People seemed more relaxed, those scenes came off as less "staged", even though we know some of the movements of characters, in and out of scenes had to be choreographed, at least a little bit.

We know that the actors enjoyed those scenes, but yeah, like I said upthread, it's easier for the bean counters in penny-pinching P&G to see where they might have deemed were 'redundancies' and possibly proceeded to make "cuts" to the cast.

I could see some exec, looking at Kevin and Jay, thinking, perhaps the show didn't need both characters. I don't know for sure but, from what I have read Steven Weber decided to leave the show? Is it possible that, the show might have decided they wanted to keep Kevin (as opposed to Jay, who no longer had family, as was pointed out, and was no longer Frannie's bf) yet Weber elected to leave so they decided to write him out? It's pretty obvious that Doug Cummings was always meant to be a short-term character, on the canvas for a relatively brief storyline arc (brief in soap terms, where a story can spin for years).

 

I wonder if Steven Weber would be open to talking about it. Nah, probably not, lol.

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1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

Tucker was gone by 1984, I think and according to the actor who played him, Eddie Earl Hatch, his departure was not handled very well, he left with hard feelings for the show's execs, in particular.

Once Steve and Betsy became a super couple, Tucker's role as confidant and business partner to Steve already seemed diminished by degrees, and the wedding sealed his (Tucker's) status, imo. Tucker left town and Roy Franklin entered, sometime in '85 and Roy and Heather dated and eventually got engaged, etc.

It seems that around '86, there was at least an attempt to build a family around Roy, whereas there was never any attempt to give Tucker family, from what it looked like.

 

Thanks for the clarification on Eddie Earl Hatch. Probably not the first (nor the last) time, but it seemed that if you were not a leading actor on a soap (aka the lead in a featured storyline), TPTB tended to treat you as dispensable.

 

I remember Roy Franklin's family being introduced. Wasn't there a story point about how his mother and father didn't like Heather because of her singing career? (Or am I confusing Heather with Jessica Griffin's law career...? LOL) I was shocked and amused recently when I ran across a clip on YT where Victoria Rowell was playing Roy's sister, Nella! I remember Tiffani Caesar in the role when I believe Nella was being portrayed as a smart-mouthed teen, Kasi Lemmons when Nella started to mature a bit and became a candy striper at Memorial Hospital...but I completely forgot Vicky Rowell's turn as the final Nella! And clearly the character left town/the show without much fanfare because...POOF! Nella who?

2 hours ago, wonderwoman1951 said:

and the daughter of frances heflin, who played erika kane’s mother, mona, on all my children.

 

Thank you, WW! I forgot about the AMC connection!

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

Interesting..I always thought that Marland created Doug Cummings and started the Kim has a stalker story.  If this was a combo of Marland and Horgan they were a dream team as this is the ATWT I loved..more free wheeling and full of energy, some camp, tied to the core families...the "Snyder Incest years,' as I call them were so drab and boring...someone was having a mercy killing, or being raped and afraid of getting HIV, or there was a teen alky, or getting Alzheimers or of course, being stabbed by a letter opener..(which actually is fun..) I think my appreciation of Marland really stems from these years and not the bulk of his drab last years.

 

Speaking of drab...Iva wasnt the only one who lost their spark...I forgot Shannon was fun before the "Aye LASSIE" days.

 

Yeah, apparently Doug and Marsha were already there with who knows what exact intentions when Marland took over. I believe Horgan stayed on at ATWT on the writing staff for years, so maybe she contributed to that free wheeling, energetic, somewhat campy, and core family feeling you liked about ATWT?

 

ATWT became somewhat labyrinthian and heavy under Marland as his characters took root and his stories had lots of Sturm und Drang, but I kind of appreciate that in retrospect. Look at the last year of ATWT and their "6-week Storylines"! Now that was a real nightmare of storytelling!

 

Oh--and yes, I loved Shannon/Margaret Reed when she first arrived, but... the whole Duncan/Scotland/Castle thing just got to be eye-rolling. (Michael Swan was always sexy as hell, but... the Scottish accent after while? Ugh.)

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1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

 

 

Me, I was that someone.

 

I also happened to think that the big chaotic group gatherings had become a feature pre-Marland, if you look at events like Tom and Margo's zany wedding in the park (where Tom and Margo literally "herded" friends and family, in various states of dress/undress) to the park and even events like costume balls and dances from as far back as 1981, you can see that that wild unpredictability in some of those sequences. By the way, I enjoyed those big events. People seemed more relaxed, those scenes came off as less "staged", even though we know some of the movements of characters, in and out of scenes had to be choreographed, at least a little bit.

We know that the actors enjoyed those scenes, but yeah, like I said upthread, it's easier for the bean counters in penny-pinching P&G to see where they might have deemed were 'redundancies' and possibly proceeded to make "cuts" to the cast.

I could see some exec, looking at Kevin and Jay, thinking, perhaps the show didn't need both characters. I don't know for sure but, from what I have read Steven Weber decided to leave the show? Is it possible that, the show might have decided they wanted to keep Kevin (as opposed to Jay, who no longer had family, as was pointed out, and was no longer Frannie's bf) yet Weber elected to leave so they decided to write him out? It's pretty obvious that Doug Cummings was always meant to be a short-term character, on the canvas for a relatively brief storyline arc (brief in soap terms, where a story can spin for years).

 

I wonder if Steven Weber would be open to talking about it. Nah, probably not, lol.

 

DD, thank you for pointing out that you commented about the "herds of characters/actors" on ATWT. You're right about big events not being exclusive to Marland. As the '70s progressed and shows were fighting to stay relevant and exciting, the big, fancy parties/balls seemed to become more frequent. I believe on one of the Locher Room episodes, one actor (can't remember who or which show) mentioned that being part of those big event stories meant super-long days and were usually pretty boring. I'm sure they were also fun in that you were dressed up (whether in fancy clothes or a costume) and could be silly or whatever, but... I'm sure they were also tiresome in that everyone "there" had to stay to be in the background.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how Jay Connors survived past the revelation about his mother being a murderer because that kind of thing usually is a perfect opportunity for characters to "leave town," but... he obviously was kept around even though Frannie was off canvas at Yale, Kirk was involved with Marcy, etc. I would've understood the budget eliminating Jay and bringing on Frannie's college boyfriend following her back to Oakdale. I can also see where Kevin was a character that was needed for a specific story and maybe wasn't going to work (or be needed for) long term. Maybe Steven Weber made the decision for Marland and TPTB by saying he wanted to leave?

5 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

I think Horgan stayed until the end of 1985. By 1986 she was gone.

 

I take this with a grain of salt, but IMDB indicates that Horgan stayed on as a writer on ATWT through March 1987. *shrugs*

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26 minutes ago, DanMan869 said:

 

DD, thank you for pointing out that you commented about the "herds of characters/actors" on ATWT. You're right about big events not being exclusive to Marland. As the '70s progressed and shows were fighting to stay relevant and exciting, the big, fancy parties/balls seemed to become more frequent. I believe on one of the Locher Room episodes, one actor (can't remember who or which show) mentioned that being part of those big event stories meant super-long days and were usually pretty boring. I'm sure they were also fun in that you were dressed up (whether in fancy clothes or a costume) and could be silly or whatever, but... I'm sure they were also tiresome in that everyone "there" had to stay to be in the background.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how Jay Connors survived past the revelation about his mother being a murderer because that kind of thing usually is a perfect opportunity for characters to "leave town," but... he obviously was kept around even though Frannie was off canvas at Yale, Kirk was involved with Marcy, etc. I would've understood the budget eliminating Jay and bringing on Frannie's college boyfriend following her back to Oakdale. I can also see where Kevin was a character that was needed for a specific story and maybe wasn't going to work (or be needed for) long term. Maybe Steven Weber made the decision for Marland and TPTB by saying he wanted to leave?

 

I take this with a grain of salt, but IMDB indicates that Horgan stayed on as a writer on ATWT through March 1987. *shrugs*

I checked and she left in 85. She returned in January 1987 and stayed until April 1987. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DanMan869 said:

 

I remember Roy Franklin's family being introduced. Wasn't there a story point about how his mother and father didn't like Heather because of her singing career? (Or am I confusing Heather with Jessica Griffin's law career...? LOL) I was shocked and amused recently when I ran across a clip on YT where Victoria Rowell was playing Roy's sister, Nella! I remember Tiffani Caesar in the role when I believe Nella was being portrayed as a smart-mouthed teen, Kasi Lemmons when Nella started to mature a bit and became a candy striper at Memorial Hospital...but I completely forgot Vicky Rowell's turn as the final Nella! And clearly the character left town/the show without much fanfare because...POOF! Nella who?

 

Nella was a nurse, same as Meg. They both entered the Nursing program at the same time and became friends, but you wouldn't know this just by watching what's on YouTube. You'd get the impression that only Meg and Pam were friends.

 

Something that is regrettable about the relatively small collection of videos uploaded to YouTube is that there is such a microscopic focus on characters like Lily and Holden and characters in later years, while completely forgetting other characters and interesting storylines.

 

2 hours ago, DanMan869 said:

I remember Roy Franklin's family being introduced. Wasn't there a story point about how his mother and father didn't like Heather because of her singing career? (Or am I confusing Heather with Jessica Griffin's law career...? LOL) 

 

It was Nella who didn't like Heather at first because she felt somehow threatened by the attention that Roy was giving his deepening relationship with Heather. Roy still lived at home, so perhaps Nella had been used to the attention her big brother used to lavish on her (Count Stovall had great sibling chemistry with all his onscreen sisters and I thought Tiffani Caesar was great as a bratty younger sister). Nella actually didn't understand why Heather left a career as a singer to study law. When Heather was with Tucker, she was an aspiring singer, but with Roy she was already studying to become a lawyer (one of the reasons why it always struck me as a bit odd when Jessica was introduced as a lawyer).

Roy's mother actually seemed to like Heather and Roy's father seemed more consumed with the fact that he hated Roy's profession (because of Roy's brother being shot and killed by the police).

I think there was a bit of tension with Jessica wanting to live with Roy, rather than marry him.  Roy believed his parents wouldn't approve of the arrangement, while Jessica couldn't understand why Roy still lived at home with his parents, lol.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DanMan869 said:

I remember Roy Franklin's family being introduced. Wasn't there a story point about how his mother and father didn't like Heather because of her singing career? (Or am I confusing Heather with Jessica Griffin's law career...? LOL) I was shocked and amused recently when I ran across a clip on YT where Victoria Rowell was playing Roy's sister, Nella! I remember Tiffani Caesar in the role when I believe Nella was being portrayed as a smart-mouthed teen, Kasi Lemmons when Nella started to mature a bit and became a candy striper at Memorial Hospital...but I completely forgot Vicky Rowell's turn as the final Nella! And clearly the character left town/the show without much fanfare because...POOF! Nella who?

 

If you want to see Nella's exit, try to watch the episodes from spring or summer 1989. I don't know if it was Marland's choice, or if new producer Laurie Caso wanted to clean house, but that whole Pam/Nella/Beau group was written out after Meg's departure and with Paul/Andy/Lien/new arrival Duke taking up airtime. By Marland standards the writing for their exits is both aimless and downbeat - actually it's sort of a glimpse of what is coming with Marland's increasingly aimless writing. Beau and Pam drift apart, and Beau has sex with Nella, who has a thing for him. Pam leaves in summer to return to Seattle - oddly, just as her con artist father arrives in Oakdale. 

 

Nella claims to still want to be a nurse, but misses a lot of shifts, to the point where I think her own mother (who was head of nursing by this point) basically tells her she clearly does not want to be a nurse and is just lying to herself. Nella decides to move to California with Beau. I tend to wonder if someone at P&G got cold feet about the interracial aspect (I think this was the first black/white interracial relationship on ATWT) because when they leave we're told they are just friends and not interested in making their relationship romantic. 

Edited by DRW50
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2 hours ago, Soapsuds said:

@Mitch Yeah I loved the way Horgan wrote Shannon. It was better than Marland.  

 

I think Horgan stayed until the end of 1985. By 1986 she was gone.

 

Seeing interviews with Horgan...she and early Shannon were similar.  

 

I always think Marland could maintain the vibe of the previous regime for a year or so..before it became more subdued.

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Posted (edited)

I didn't think that Beau and Nella slept together, although I thought that Nella was fixated on Beau and Beau let her be (which led her on, tbh) because she inflated his bruised ego, from the time when he temporarily lost his voice.

I don't think Mrs. Franklin was a nurse. I think she took a job at the hospital (I'm not even sure it was a paid position, but she wanted to have some sort of work outside the house).

The way Nella and Beau departed the canvas was weird, with them being too close friends but not lovers. Also, it still seems like what's on YouTube is incomplete.

 

I do think that Kasi Lemmons' (and even Victoria Rowell's versión) Nella got screwed up by the Writer's Strike as clearly they didn't know what to do with Nella, and could only write Roy as the angry Black guy jealous of Duncan.

To be honest, I preferred Tiffani Caesar's portrayal of the character.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
Why autocorrect??!
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6 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

I didn't think that Beau and Nella slept together, although I thought that Nella was fixated on Beau and Beau let her be (which led her on, tbh) because she inflated his bruised ego, from the time when he temporarily lost his voice.

I don't think Mrs. Franklin was a nurse. I think she took a job at the hospital (I'm not even sure it was a paid position, but she wanted to have some sort of work outside the house).

The way Nella and Beau departed the canvas was weird, with them being too close friends but not lovers. Also, it still seems like what's on YouTube is incomplete.

 

I do think that Kasi Lemmons' (and even Victoria Rowell's versión) Nella got screwed up by the Writer's Strike as clearly they didn't know what to do with Nella, and could only write Roy as the angry Black guy jealous of Duncan.

To be honest, I preferred Tiffani Caesar's portrayal of the character.

 

Oh you're right, she wasn't the head of nursing - she did work there but someone else said that to Nella. 

 

I was sure they slept together but it's been almost a decade since I watched some of those episodes so I probably invented that in my head. 

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43 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

 

Seeing interviews with Horgan...she and early Shannon were similar.  

 

I always think Marland could maintain the vibe of the previous regime for a year or so..before it became more subdued.

My mom, aunt and I were Shannon fans but hated it when she was paired with Duncan. My aunt and mother found Duncan a bore.

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