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On 7/20/2018 at 7:07 PM, DramatistDreamer said:

Earlier this month a bunch of us were discussing some of the timeline of events in 1985-1986 and the topic of Sierra and Lily's birth mother revelations surfaced as a topic of discussion and we were talking about that whole storyline of John blackmailing Lucinda over her secret about Sierra's maternity and when Craig knew and whether he wanted to also keep it a secret. I was going off of a memory that Craig discovered the truth when he and Sierra were engaged and he demanded that Lucinda tell Sierra the truth.

 

Interestingly enough, I came across this clip from CBS.  I thought I had seen all of these classic clips from CBS over the past few years and I'd only seen the shorter scene of Craig kissing Sierra in her wedding dress but not the longer one where he actually threatens to tell Sierra the truth himself if Lucinda doesn't tell her.

 

I could just cry at the video quality of these clips!  I guess, CBS is only allowed to show clips?

 

Great clips and such a great PQ.

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1 hour ago, P.J. said:

2. I think it had a lot to do with ATWT hoping BH would return. As I recall, there was some kind of gap between finding out Hal had left and finding out he was undercover as the Lombard chauffeur. And then that he wasn't dead. And having to maintain the fiction that Hal was dead created conflict for Tom with Margo and Babs.

 

Thanks, it just struck me as odd that there were three narratives about Hal going on at the same time; the sad thing was characters like Kirk making some nasty snarky comments about Barbara not knowing Babs thought that Hal was dead and was withholding the truth from everyone else, yet both Kim and Lisa knew about Hal being presumed dead  etc. It just came off as messy and unnecessary to me. 

 

 

On 7/17/2018 at 7:15 AM, Brolden said:

 

1994: February 2/3 (because the 'Bell Tower' episode was pre-empted in much of the country, it was re-broadcast on February 3rd); March 17 & 18; September 5 & 9; November 24 & 25; December 30

 

 

According to btm0815ma's comments on magilla71's 1994 video's on youtube, the show was pre-empted on January 17, 1994 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbv9jZMbKLg). The January 14 episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKmq6-qW1IE) does say 'join us again Monday', but I'm assuming this might be one of those unscheduled pre-emptions. The episode that btm0815ma says to be from February 18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhKtPEWYKek) says the show won't be seen the following Monday, which would be February 21.

 

 

 

 

I wonder why the Bell Tower episode was pre-empted that day? I know the 1-17-94 ep was pre-empted due to the Northridge earthquake but I'm not sure what happened to the 2/2/94 episode. Thanks for all your help though! 

Edited by soapfan770
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Okay, so I have been trying to watch episodes from 2006 (which I slipped in and out of when they aired), to see whether maybe I was being too harsh on storylines from ATWT's final decade as one or two late-period fans have suggested that many fans of the show's previous decades disparage the late years.

At random I started watching the time period in mid 2006 when the revelation about Maddie's sexual assault was surfacing.

 

Starting out with the positive (yes, I can find the positives, LOL)--

ATWT still had capable actors who had made their debuts during that time period (up to 2007-08).  

In particular, ATWT had a pretty decent young adult group, especially in Jesse Lee Soffer, Zach Roerig, Alexandra Chando and Jennifer Landon.  Almost all of these actors have gone on to make names for themselves in primetime with Soffer probably being the most prominent in the group.

Chando showed that she was certainly capable of producing the kind of range needed to carry the weight of a sexual assault story.

The story itself was relevant back then and would still be relevant (perhaps even more so) today.

Henry, in the early part of the story-the part that had to do with the revelations that his sister had suffered an assault- became more than just the one-dimensional character he'd been for most of his time on the canvas. He still had his quips and one-liners but it was grounded in more reality and gravitas.  In this, Trent Dawson did well, imo.

 

Here's the less-than positive--

The writing was just...not that good.

The sexual assault story, which had a promising start (like so many stories of that late period) got absorbed and all but lost when it morphed into a campy, silly Slasher story (complete with a poor facsimile of the shower scene from Psycho) that just looked cheap from every angle. 

I'd really love to know who decided to include the Slasher story?  Was there pressure from the executives to try to expand Maddie's sexual assault story to somehow include more characters?  Was this considered the best solution?  Was this someone's idea of a summertime story that would attract interest among teens?  

Also, I understand that ATWT was trying to adopt an interactive approach with InTurn but the execution on screen was so clumsy-- having random teens show up on screen just to yell 'murderer' or 'freak' at Maddie seemed especially bad.  I didn't care about these people or their feelings, probably because it was obvious they were just showing up to fulfill their parts from the InTurn promotion.  At the time, the promotion was probably pretty interesting but the concept has aged badly.  Kind of like the 'Soap Dollars' gimmick which just looks desperate now.

I haven't gotten to this part in my YT viewing but from the time I watched on T.V., I remember well what happened to Eve, Henry and Maddie's sister, and I think it was a big mistake to not to keep Eve viable by taking her character in such an extreme direction. 

I saw a scene between Eve and Jack Snyder and thought I noticed some chemistry.  I know that Carly and Jack were endgame but in the meantime, a newly single Eve (once the truth about her husband got out and she divorced him) could have provided a good complication.  A crazy Eve, however would've been just another Julia, which I doubt anybody would've wanted to see ever again. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see it.  An Eve that was actually an attractive prospect could've provided good angst for Carly and Jack.

(I almost hate to use the word "triangle" but when ATWT was really good, they could do good, complicated triangles without demonizing their characters-- e.g. Tom/Margo/Hal.  Although I wouldn't go all the way and say that Kim/Bob/Susan were what most people would call a triangle, it had aspects of one. Also, I have to say that the Tom/Margo/Hal triangle probably worked because Scott Holmes was in the role, rather than Gregg Marx who had a lot of onscreen sexual chemistry with HBS and it might have seemed unrealistic for Margo to be torn unless they created another 'pseudo-cheating' scandal to make Margo turn away.)

The older characters are styled pretty poorly, particularly Lisa (was EF doing her own hair & makeup or did the hair/makeup and wardrobe people just really dislike her??).

 

The other storylines like Damians faux-illness and Lucy's infiltrating his household to see if he was faking so Luke wouldn't have to accompany him back to Malta, leaving behind a comotosed Lily who just gave birth--I found myself largely indifferent to this storyline.  It was muddled and poorly scripted.  Not even Elizabeth Hubbard (who gave it a good try) could save it.  Grayson McCouch who was kind of just floating in and out since he was supposed to be a widower in mourning was lifeless.  The writers probably should've just made little Johnny his and had Jennifer survive so they could send them all off the canvas into the sunset.

 

The other storylines were Fast-Forward material.  The lackluster story of Simon's new wealth and partnering with Carly on designing an apartment complex with Katie being shoehorned into the story is so lackluster that I could care less.

 

My viewing of these episodes feels mostly labored and I'd be surprised if I kept watching.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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20 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Okay, so I have been trying to watch episodes from 2006 (which I slipped in and out of when they aired), to see whether maybe I was being too harsh on storylines from ATWT's final decade as one or two late-period fans have suggested that many fans of the show's previous decades disparage the late years.

At random I started watching the time period in mid 2006 when the revelation about Maddie's sexual assault was surfacing.

 

Starting out with the positive (yes, I can find the positives, LOL)--

ATWT still had capable actors who had made their debuts during that time period (up to 2007-08).  

In particular, ATWT had a pretty decent young adult group, especially in Jesse Lee Soffer, Zach Roerig, Alexandra Chando and Jennifer Landon.  Almost all of these actors have gone on to make names for themselves in primetime with Soffer probably being the most prominent in the group.

Chando showed that she was certainly capable of producing the kind of range needed to carry the weight of a sexual assault story.

The story itself was relevant back then and would still be relevant (perhaps even more so) today.

Henry, in the early part of the story-the part that had to do with the revelations that his sister had suffered an assault- became more than just the one-dimensional character he'd been for most of his time on the canvas. He still had his quips and one-liners but it was grounded in more reality and gravitas.  In this, Trent Dawson did well, imo.

 

Here's the less-than positive--

The writing was just...not that good.

The sexual assault story, which had a promising start (like so many stories of that late period) got absorbed and all but lost when it morphed into a campy, silly Slasher story (complete with a poor facsimile of the shower scene from Psycho) that just looked cheap from every angle. 

I'd really love to know who decided to include the Slasher story?  Was there pressure from the executives to try to expand Maddie's sexual assault story to somehow include more characters?  Was this considered the best solution?  Was this someone's idea of a summertime story that would attract interest among teens?  

Also, I understand that ATWT was trying to adopt an interactive approach with InTurn but the execution on screen was so clumsy-- having random teens show up on screen just to yell 'murderer' or 'freak' at Maddie seemed especially bad.  I didn't care about these people or their feelings, probably because it was obvious they were just showing up to fulfill their parts from the InTurn promotion.  At the time, the promotion was probably pretty interesting but the concept has aged badly.  Kind of like the 'Soap Dollars' gimmick which just looks desperate now.

I haven't gotten to this part in my YT viewing but from the time I watched on T.V., I remember well what happened to Eve, Henry and Maddie's sister, and I think it was a big mistake to not to keep Eve viable by taking her character in such an extreme direction. 

I saw a scene between Eve and Jack Snyder and thought I noticed some chemistry.  I know that Carly and Jack were endgame but in the meantime, a newly single Eve (once the truth about her husband got out and she divorced him) could have provided a good complication.  A crazy Eve, however would've been just another Julia, which I doubt anybody would've wanted to see ever again. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see it.  An Eve that was actually an attractive prospect could've provided good angst for Carly and Jack.

(I almost hate to use the word "triangle" but when ATWT was really good, they could do good, complicated triangles without demonizing their characters-- e.g. Tom/Margo/Hal.  Although I wouldn't go all the way and say that Kim/Bob/Susan were what most people would call a triangle, it had aspects of one. Also, I have to say that the Tom/Margo/Hal triangle probably worked because Scott Holmes was in the role, rather than Gregg Marx who had a lot of onscreen sexual chemistry with HBS and it might have seemed unrealistic for Margo to be torn unless they created another 'pseudo-cheating' scandal to make Margo turn away.)

The older characters are styled pretty poorly, particularly Lisa (was EF doing her own hair & makeup or did the hair/makeup and wardrobe people just really dislike her??).

 

The other storylines like Damians faux-illness and Lucy's infiltrating his household to see if he was faking so Luke wouldn't have to accompany him back to Malta, leaving behind a comotosed Lily who just gave birth--I found myself largely indifferent to this storyline.  It was muddled and poorly scripted.  Not even Elizabeth Hubbard (who gave it a good try) could save it.  Grayson McCouch who was kind of just floating in and out since he was supposed to be a widower in mourning was lifeless.  The writers probably should've just made little Johnny his and had Jennifer survive so they could send them all off the canvas into the sunset.

 

The other storylines were Fast-Forward material.  The lackluster story of Simon's new wealth and partnering with Carly on designing an apartment complex with Katie being shoehorned into the story is so lackluster that I could care less.

 

My viewing of these episodes feels mostly labored and I'd be surprised if I kept watching.

 

I recall liking Henry and Maddie's sister Eve.. she was played by a decent actress and she and Jack did have decent chemistry with one another.  In the old days, writers/producers would have adjusted the story if a character worked and/or had chemistry with another character... but by this point.. they didn't.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

I recall liking Henry and Maddie's sister Eve.. she was played by a decent actress and she and Jack did have decent chemistry with one another.  In the old days, writers/producers would have adjusted the story if a character worked and/or had chemistry with another character... but by this point.. they didn't.

 

If only the story not become so convoluted, there might have been some creative space to chart out a better storyline trajectory for Eve. She seemed like the type of character that would've worked on ATWT.

It was all there-- there were elements already embedded in the narrative that could've made her a richly complex character, even if she wasn't a permanent member of the cast, could've come and gone ever so often.

Without the slasher story, the writers could've played out an undercurrent of suppressed resentment by Eve towards Maddie and vice-versa.  Perhaps Eve could've picked up on a perceived bond between her sister and her husband that made her uncomfortable, or jealous/resentful though she couldn't quite put her finger on why.  Maddie could've have confronted her sister with her suspicions that Eve must've known, must've had some sense deep down of what was happening but failed to stop it. They could've worked this all out in family therapy sessions (remember when ATWT was known for analysis and therapy?) .  Paging Dr. Michaels...

Feelings of guilt and anger could've plagued Eve who begins to confide in Jack, which could, in turn, complicate Jack's personal life as the two become friends. Carly may not want Eve around for various reasons (she failed to protect her little sister-"how could she not have known?", she doesn't like her around Jack, etc.) .  Eve taking up the role of big sister, could've become overprotective of Maddie and have caused problems between Maddie and Casey (who were on the verge of becoming sexually active).  She could've even started to micromanage Henry's life.

There's so much that could've been done.

 

Although I decided to stop watching Y&R, the last time I watched, I began to notice that Y&R is starting to commit the same errors in storytelling that ATWT had in its final years.  They had a domestic abuse storyline that went horribly awry because it became subsumed in another storyline.  I recognized this very early on because I recognized all the early signs.  This 'bait and switch' storytelling seems to have become quite common on soaps.

 

The sexual assault storyline, had tptb just focused on that, could've been a tour de force for the actress  and for the show but they had to crowd it out with that silly slasher story. So unfortunate.

 

A question to all the BTS experts: were Alexandra Chando and Zach Roerig dating IRL at some point?  They would fall under the long tradition of ATWT actors who were either dating or married IRL. 

I seem to remember some program on MTV in the mid '00s that showcased Chando and the footage they showed seemed to show Chando and Roerig together in a social setting. Maybe they had just bonded to be very close?

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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On 21-7-2018 at 1:53 AM, ~bl~ said:

In the 90s they still had post-season baseball games in the afternoon still and CBS had the rights. You need to check those dates in October 1991. 

October 8, 9, 11, 12, 13 were the ALCS (Tues, Wed, Friday, Sat,. Sun) and the NLCS were October 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 - Wed, Thus, Sat, Sun, Mon, Wed. - 12 & 13 were Saturday and Sunday, so soaps weren't pre-empted. But on Wednesday the 9th, they wouldn't have shown two games at the same slot, so one had to be in the afternoon. I can't recall how many days didn't have soaps, but I remember seeing promos about how you won't miss anything due to baseball years ago.

 

Thanks for that info, ~bl~ ! I'll add it to the notes I've scribbled in my file. If one or two of these days were pre-empted, though, it would mean that either December 31 or January 1, or both, weren't pre-empted (which isn't completely unheard of). I'll see if I can find out more about the baseball pre-emptions. 

 

19 hours ago, soapfan770 said:

I wonder why the Bell Tower episode was pre-empted that day? I know the 1-17-94 ep was pre-empted due to the Northridge earthquake but I'm not sure what happened to the 2/2/94 episode. Thanks for all your help though! 

 

According to btm0815ma's comments the February 1, 1994 episode (The Bell Tower, which is on the Holden & Lily DVD) was pre-empted in the Eastern time zone for a CBS special news report on the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrington situation. Because a large part of the country missed the episode, it was then re-broadcast on February 2. I had heard about the re-broadcast in another place as well (although I can't recall now where it was), but wasn't aware of the reason for the pre-emption until I read the comments on magilla's channel.

 

You are certain, then, that the January 17 episode was pre-empted? Because I can't find it anywhere else than in those comments by btm0815ma on magilla's channel (again, not that I don't believe them, they seem to know what they're talking about... I'm just a little hesistant to accept any info too eagerly, as it will be impossible to track where I went wrong once a mistake slips in there). 

Edited by Brolden
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7th era: January 8, 1991 - June 3, 1991

 

As specified in my last post, episode #9,019 aired on June 3, 1991.

According to Chicago's Museum of Broadcast Communications (http://www.oocities.org/televisioncity/studio/5185/sources/vidsources.html), episode #8,920 aired on January 8, 1991.

 

Based on these two episode numbers, 5 episodes must have been pre-empted in between these two dates. I'm certain of these pre-emptions:

 

1991 (post-January 8; pre-June 3): March 14 & 15

 

That leaves 3 more pre-emptions. Unfortunately, I don't really have any leads on which other dates may have been pre-empted here, so, as usual, any info will be much appreciated!

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8th era: July 30, 1990 - January 8, 1991

 

As specified in my last post, episode #8,920 aired on January 8, 1991. 

According to the ATAS-UCLA Television Archives (http://www.oocities.org/televisioncity/studio/5185/sources/vidsources.html), episode #8,812 aired on July 30, 1990.

 

Based on these two episode numbers, 8 episodes must have been pre-empted in between these two dated. I'm certain of these four pre-emptions:

 

1990 (post-July 30): September 3 & 7; November 22 & 23

 

That leaves 4 more pre-emptions. I have suspect these episodes could possibly have been pre-empted, but haven't been able to verify:

 

October 4, 1990: Major League?

October 5, 1990: Major League?

October 8, 1990: Major League?

October 9, 1990: Major League?

October 10, 1990: Major League?

October 11, 1990: Major League?

October 12, 1990: Major League?

December 25, 1990: Christmas?

December 31, 1990: New Year's Eve?

January 1, 1991: New Year's Day?

 

As always, any info on these dates will be much appreciated!

 

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9th era: December 8, 1989 - July 30, 1990

 

As specified in my last post, episode #8,812 aired on July 30, 1990.

According to the ATAS-UCLA Television Archives (http://www.oocities.org/televisioncity/studio/5185/sources/vidsources.html), episode #8,781 aired on June 15, 1990. This matches up perfectly with episode #8,812 on July 30, meaning every episode in between likely aired.

The same source says that episode #8,650 aired on December 8th, 1989.

 

Based on these episode numbers, 4 episodes must have been pre-empted in between these dates. I am certain of these two pre-emptions:

 

1990 (pre-June 15): January 1; May 28

 

That leaves 2 pre-emptions unaccounted for. I have no leads as to which dates they might have been, but there are only 29 contenders:

 

December 11, 1989

December 12, 1989

December 13, 1989

December 14, 1989

December 15, 1989

December 20, 1989

December 21, 1989

December 22, 1989

December 26, 1989

December 27, 1989

January 3, 1990

January 8, 1990

January 11, 1990

January 31, 1990

February 1, 1990

February 13, 1990

February 14, 1990

February 15, 1990

February 23, 1990

February 26, 1990

March 16, 1990

March 21, 1990

March 26, 1990

March 29, 1990

April 4, 1990

April 16, 1990

April 17, 1990

May 3, 1990

May 10, 1990

 

As always, any info on any of these air dates will be much appreciated!

Next time: the remainder of 1989, which is broken up into about four more eras, including one that drives me crazy, where there is only 1 pre-emption unaccounted for. 

 

 

Edited by Brolden
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I don't think Chando and Roerig dated IRL. I thought Chando in particular was undervalued in Landon's wake. And tying in the reveal of Maddie's rape to the ridiculous Slasher story was....unfortunate. While I never agreed Jack's rape was "played for laughs", I do agree both rapes were trivialized by the low brow antics surrounding them. 

 

The less said about Simon and the kiss ass Paul Leyden returns, the better. While IDGAFF that it torched Katie, I loathed that Carly looked like a complete fool taking his crap. While Marland used short returns to enhance story, Sheffer/Pissy/Goutman ended up torching the show trying to lure people back with " fan favs" and crap story. 

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Yeah, they were/are probably just good friends.  Still this picture from years back is kind of cute.

 

 

FINALLY made it down to Atlanta to visit this guy... @zach_roerig

A post shared by Alexandra Chando (@achando) on

Simon's first appearance, I thought he was entertaining and cute but with every successive appearance he seemed to become a totally superfluous character and the writing did him no favors.  Paul Leyden couldn't grin his way out of all that garbage writing.

On 7/22/2018 at 2:43 PM, Soapsuds said:

Great clips and such a great PQ.

 

IKR?   Why can't P&G show some magnanimity with the fans that supported them through decades and release some good quality episode to stream and/or purchase?

Also, for the 1980s, Sierra's dress is pretty stylish, not too dated.

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23 hours ago, DramatistDreamer said:

 

 

Starting out with the positive (yes, I can find the positives, LOL)--

ATWT still had capable actors who had made their debuts during that time period (up to 2007-08).  

In particular, ATWT had a pretty decent young adult group, especially in Jesse Lee Soffer, Zach Roerig, Alexandra Chando and Jennifer Landon.  Almost all of these actors have gone on to make names for themselves in primetime with Soffer probably being the most prominent in the group.

Chando showed that she was certainly capable of producing the kind of range needed to carry the weight of a sexual assault story.

 

 

I loved the four of them, along with the first Jade who was fun as just a total shallow bitch. I hated their characters were destroyed by some very poor storytelling there--Will and Gwen getting baby rabies, Maddie become stark and depressing during the slasher story, and of course Casey being sent up the river for the Adam debacle. Ugh. 

 

The slasher story and the subsequent Ice storm stories were actually ratings successes for ATWT. The less said about Nick Kasnoff, Adam Munson's 2006/07 story, and Jeffrey Meek's Craig the better. 

 

I didn't think 2006 ATWT was awful per se, just found it overall disappointing and not fulfilling its potential and overall just poor execution of stories. The fallout of 2005 just seemed to be brushed aside and anything good that came out of it was inexplicably downgraded. Like @P.J. said, characters like Carly, Emily, and yes even Katie were destroyed for some ridiculous misogynist stuff. Carly and Katie were first ran through the wringer with the Nick Kasnoff caper and then thrown under the bus for Simon. Emily became a psycho again, keeping Dusty chained and then becoming a hooker by year's end. Also losing Jennifer left a huge hole in the show as she had become a tent-pole character and lead heroine to the show by that point, why the show didn't recast is beyond me. The attempted Emmy-grab story had some good acting, but its resolution was a massive failure and probably lead indirectly to Hendrickson's tragic passing. Meg chased after Craig because they their names rhyme!

 

 

Still overall, 2006 was probably ATWT's last solid year and the last year the show would actually try to tell a story that lasted longer than a month.

 

How the hell Spencer Grammer still has an acting career after playing Lucy on ATWT like the way she did is beyond me. The apple fell very, very far from the tree there. 

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Trying to get through the summer of 2006 feels like a chore.  It's not enjoyable to watch, just a slog.  I can watch classic episodes from the 80s more than once.  I can even watch some of the 90s and find things to enjoy. The '00s however, at best, I find endless things to critique and propose how many story threads I would junk and how many characters I'd eliminate altogether. 

 

Speaking of eliminate, like I said previously, I would have just sent Dusty and Jennifer off together.  If tptb wanted to recast Jennifer, they could've then had the space to take their time.  Also, re-casting Dusty would've also been a good idea, while they were at it.

43 minutes ago, soapfan770 said:

How the hell Spencer Grammer still has an acting career after playing Lucy on ATWT like the way she did is beyond me. The apple fell very, very far from the tree there. 

 

I felt the same way about Spencer.  Kelsey Grammar is a major a*shole but he was at least good at his best known role.

Watching ATWT again now, I am even more perplexed as to how Spencer Grammar stayed on the show.  There was never any need to bring back Lucy Montgomery, who should've returned to/stayed in Montega.  In fact, none of the Montgomerys should've been revived/brought to Oakdale if they couldn't get the O.G. actors, especially Scott Bryce.  What they did to Craig annoyed me more than anything else they could've done.  I won't be revisiting those recast episodes.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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@DRW50:lol::lol:  That's what I get for clicking on that damn suggestion column.  Against my better judgement, I decided to test my theory of how bad the show's final decade was, mainly to see if I was somehow being unfair or whether my initial judgement(s) were correct.

I have given up on watching all the way through and have taken to hitting the FF tab.  A LOT.  

 

I truly am starting to feel badly for the senior and longtime veteran actors, many of whom might as be wallpaper at this point.  Some wallpaper is styled better too--honestly some of the worst hair, makeup and clothing choices I've ever seen on the show. I thought Lily's 1988 'mom jeans' were bad but Barbara's satin gold pantsuit is in a league all it's own!  Sets, styling, etc.  Bad visuals all around.

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