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I don't think Jaime has been raping her for years. And I do think the scene between them last night ended with her going for it as well while hating herself - chanting "it's not right" while wrapping herself around him. But I do suspect that sort of ugly tableau, with the iffy lines of consent, the violent action, the need to prove something to one or both of them, is not new for either of them. When we first saw them together, as lovers, he was doing her doggy-style in somebody else's tower amidst the hay and the dirt, and I just never saw that as being about respect. IMO their whole relationship is built on dysfunction and how they equate sex and their need for each other with all sorts of thorny things, including power. And from the start, Cersei had the firmer hand.

The show claims they didn't do the scene just to show Jaime was "still bad" and not a woobie hero, and I agree with that. But I think they did the scene to show just how deep the sickness between them goes, and how easy it is for both of them to fall back into old patterns. In a sense, IMO, they are both addicts. That's what I thought would happen when Jaime returned to King's Landing at the end of last season and I was dismayed to see it in the trailer, when they showed the beginning of the scene (Jaime grabbing her and kissing her), but I wasn't surprised. Their relationship is the filth they live in. They tried to make it work again in the ugliest way possible, with a scene that polarizes the audience, and it should polarize them IMO because what it sends back, no matter how any of us read the scene, is that that relationship and who they are together, how they treat each other, just doesn't and will never work. There's just nothing good in it for them.

Edited by Vee
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Even the article that was just linked shows that her last words were not at all her "accepting" or "wanting" Jaime like she does in the books.

I'm sorry but there's a big difference between a couple enjoying a little rough sex and whips and chains, whatever and a couple that has been raping each other for years on end (or at least the guy has according to those who want to give the writers a free pass on this epic BS).

The books and even the show to a small extent have only shown Cersei and Jaime to be quite passionate about each other when it comes to love making but NEVER have they implied that one took the other against their will just for sh*ts and giggles or funsies.

Nor have I or anyone I know who loves/enjoys the books said that Jaime Lannister is the Boy Scout of America and the best shining example of humanity in Westeros. Hes def bad for what he did to Bran and plenty of other things he's done in the books....

But rape? Again that is crossing a line that should NEVER have been crossed

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I understand what you're saying, Vee. I guess the problem I have is that I don't trust Jaime around any women after this. I don't just mean in romantic relationships, I mean in general. I do think he and Cersei had a very toxic relationship, with power struggles, an unhealthy relationship. But all I could think was if he can do this to her, then what is he going to do to other women? I can't say this is just because of Cersei or Cersei drove him to this, because I feel like if I do that, then I'm blaming Cersei. I know that isn't what you are doing, but I feel like that's what the scene does.

I just think there were so many other ways to show this relationship ending badly.

Edited by DRW50
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Even the article that was just linked shows that her last words were not at all her "accepting" or "wanting" Jaime like she does in the books.

I'm sorry but there's a big difference between a couple enjoying a little rough sex and whips and chains, whatever and a couple that has been raping each other for years on end (or at least the guy has according to those who want to give the writers a free pass on this epic BS).

The books and even the show to a small extent have only shown Cersei and Jaime to be quite passionate about each other when it comes to love making but NEVER have they implied that one took the other against their will just for sh*ts and giggles or funsies.

But we're not talking about the books, we're talking about the show. And on the show, Cersei, as I saw it, just kept chanting "it's not right" while wrapping her legs around him. I'm not talking about them raping each other, I'm talking about really disturbing [[email protected]#$%^&*]. Which is what I felt the scene showed them and their relationship to be.

And I'm sorry, but since you've made the comparison twice now, I find rough, ugly sex between twisted people who've been doing this for years to be very different from the scene on DAYS where E.J. held a sobbing Sami at gunpoint and raped her in a car on the side of the road. I watched that live; it was rape. So I guess we can all see these things differently.

I understand what you're saying, Vee. I guess the problem I have is that I don't trust Jaime around any women after this. I don't just mean in romantic relationships, I mean in general. I do think he and Cersei had a very toxic relationship, with power struggles, an unhealthy relationship. But all I could think was if he can do this to her, then what is he going to do to other women? I can't say this is just because of Cersei or Cersei drove him to this, because I feel like if I do that, then I'm blaming Cersei. I know that isn't what you are doing, but I feel like that's what the scene does.

No, I get that argument and I sympathize with it. I don't think it's simply that Cersei does it or that Jaime does it - I think they both do it to each other, and I think their father made them this way (and maybe another generations of incest, who knows). And it goes beyond the physical. I don't know if either of them can ever have a functional, decent romantic relationship with anyone else, but I know they can't with each other.

Edited by Vee
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I made the mistake of reading an EW review which sneered that Arya would be "face-palming" because Sansa "managed" to get kidnapped yet again.

Yes, let's all guffaw because a girl who barely feels anything at all now (beyond some disgust at the pig who accompanies her) would laugh it up at her sister being held hostage by a pervert.

A part of me wants to quit watching this show, but when I see hacks like that, I feel like I'd sort of be abandoning Sansa (yes I know she's a fictional character) if I did. Bleh.

Edited by DRW50
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I don't know what I was expecting to read when I opened the thread but it was definitely not pages upon pages of whether it was rape/Jaime is a rapist! laugh.png I had kind of forgotten all about it by the end of the episode, tbh. But let me weigh in since I did watch the scene and I don't really care that it was different in the book, even though I love the book: It didn't seem to me that the scene was at all about rape. At all. Save for some discomfort it caused initially because I wasn't sure Cersei would consent, I was more shocked by the fact that these people were going at it by Joffrey's dead body. Which is what this scene was all about: Their sick, twisted, nasty, disgusting desire for each other no matter what. Yes, Cersei objected--but only to the location and timing of the sex, not the sex itself. She clearly said it: "Not here." She kept telling him it's not right yet she kissed him, her hand resting on his chin. She grabbed his jerkin with passion. She wrapped her legs around him. She may have hated herself for wanting Jaime, but want him she did. It was supposed to be ugly and uncomfortable and sick. Welcome to the world of Cersei and Jaime!

Anyway, I didn't expect the show to pick up right where it left off. I thought it was very nicely done the way they showed Sansa running through the streets of King's Landing only to end up with Petyr. And Olenna's nonchalant reaction was awesome, as well. Although it appears they have changed the way Joffrey was poisoned, so I'm not sure anymore how they're doing it. The scene with Pod was touching.

I was left a little cold in regards to everything with Sam and Gilly. Can't pretend I care much.

Davos and Stannis' daughter are fantastic together.

The ending scene had excellent FX. My God, how does a show pull stuff like that off? Very nicely done.

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There's always going to be too-glib reviews of popular TV shows and obnoxious fans thereof. I try not to let them get to me in terms of your own viewing.

And I think it's unfair to say Arya doesn't feel anything - she feels plenty, especially at the close of Season 3. As does the Hound, who is a difficult person at best but who is not without humanity. But Arya's circumstances and tragedy have also hardened her to life and to what she feels she must do to survive where her parents didn't. That doesn't mean, though, that she didn't call the Hound out for his treatment of those villagers - she felt a great deal of sympathy for them. She enjoyed killing the man who killed the little boy from Season 2, but that was presented as something very bad for her - and even after that, she's already shown she's far from a sociopath. And the Hound, while at core a very traumatized person and a relentless, brutal pragmatist, is not a monster either.

Edited by Vee
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There's always going to be too-glib reviews of popular TV shows and obnoxious fans thereof. I try not to let them get to me in terms of your own viewing.

And I think it's unfair to say Arya doesn't feel anything - she feels plenty, especially at the close of Season 3. As does the Hound, who is a difficult person at best but who is not without humanity. But Arya's circumstances and tragedy have also hardened her to life and to what she feels she must do to survive where her parents didn't. That doesn't mean, though, that she didn't call the Hound out for his treatment of those villagers - she felt a great deal of sympathy for them. She enjoyed killing the man who killed the little boy from Season 2, but that was presented as something very bad for her - and even after that, she's already shown she's far from a sociopath. And the Hound, while at core a very traumatized person and a relentless, brutal pragmatist, is not a monster either.

Unfortunately those reviews tend to carry the day. It's cool and fun to love Arya and Tyrion and Dany and jab at all the rest. I like Dany a lot, and sometimes I like Tyrion and Arya, but they aren't saints, regardless of what the press makes them out to be.

I wasn't insulting Arya. It's not her fault she has become a sociopath, or is on the way to being that. I was mostly trying to say she isn't going to laugh or be embarrassed over Sansa. She's past that type of reaction. Sansa is a distant memory to her.

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Except I don't think Arya is a sociopath at all - that's counter to her character arc in Season 3 as well as the last episode, IMO. She did enjoy getting bloody revenge on the knight in the premiere, but the writing isn't painting her as just some shallow little badass. She may or may not end up losing her humanity because of what she's been through, but she certainly had a reaction to the Hound's treatment of those villagers. Even though he had a point about them not being able to survive the winter, that didn't make Arya approve of it any more.

There's always going to be fan favorite characters on any show who the mass audience take to or the ones they don't, but I think the more committed audience takes to most of the characters. I think people like not just Tyrion, or Arya or Daenerys, they also can like Sansa or Bran or Cersei or Jaime or Brienne or whoever else - it's not either/or.

Edited by Vee
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I read a post about how they cut out things like her being catatonic after the Red Wedding. I guess that's for time, but it does make me learn more toward them seeing her as becoming a sociopath. I do see what you mean though.

You've probably already read this, but the director spoke again about the episode and this time said it wasn't rape.

http://zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_director_says_rape_scene_was_meant_to_be_consensual-2014-04

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This is completely anecdotal but hanging out in a bar tonight I discussed GoT with two people. The guy said it was rape, the girl said "nahh, she wanted it. It was "rape" not rape."

but I think the more committed audience takes to most of the characters. I think people like not just Tyrion, or Arya or Daenerys, they also can like Sansa or Bran or Cersei or Jaime or Brienne or whoever else - it's not either/or.

Yeah, it almost never occurs to me to not like a character on the show. I like every character with the exception of Theon's torturer (who I wish the show would drop or wrap that story up). I am equally fine watching Bran as I am watching Tyrion as I am watching Varys as I am watching Sansa or Gendry (who must still be rowing a boat somewhere). I could do with less Stannis because the guy is truly a stick in the mud and consequently not entertaining. My favorites to watch though are Tywin, Jaime, Diana Rigg, and now the new Prince.

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No one is saying he was a good and noble fellow. What we're saying (well, two of us) was that he wasn't a rapist. I don't think every person on this show who does terrible things is a rapist or is going to become a rapist. If I did, then there would be about a dozen characters or so characters who would be free of that trope.

I realize that. What always bothers me about these discussions regarding rape (not rape) is the implication that somehow rape is the worst thing anyone can do. That Jaime wasn't a rapist, and that somehow placed him higher on the scale of morality than the other male characters. Rape is horrible. But it's not the worst thing anyone can do IMO. The Wilding didn't rape the child or his mother. He just forced the child to watch his parents being slaughtered and told him he was going to eat them.

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Debating rape or not rape with incestuous siblings? LMAO!

LMAO!!!!

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If Jaime had been raping Cersei for years, I don't think she would have had the reactions to him that she had in the early seasons. I think she would have lumped him in with all the other men in her life. I think in her mind, Jaime was pure.

I doubt she's going to see him any differently going forward. If she does, it will be because he doesn't do what she wants him to do. IMO, Jaime loves Cersei more than she loves him. As Jaime said, he's only been with one woman. Cersei told Ned that she loved Robert in the beginning. She was sleeping with Lancel when Jaime was imprisoned. She's much more Tywin's child than Jaime is, imo. Jaime wants to be honorable, even though he's failed. Cersei thinks that's childish.

The Hound is an interesting case. I don't think he's a monster by any stretch. In this world, I give people as much credit for what they don't do, as the things they do. The Hound could have raped, kidnapped and sold Sansa. He could rape Arya and sell her back to Tywin for more money then he'll ever get out of Lysa. He doesn't know she's crazy as a bed bug. He's selling her back to her aunt because he things she'll be safe. That doesn't make him a hero, but he's right, there are a lot worse people out there.

Edited by Juliajms
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