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NOTICE: What Happened, How It Was Resolved and Moving Forward

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@watson71 Thanks for that info! It seems like NBC was a powerhouse for soaps in the 70s but what I’ve noticed here and with The Doctors is the constant changes in time slot and writers ultimately killed all the goodwill they build. DAYS seemed to really benefit from consistency in terms of writers and cast and a good time slot. AW is lucky to have lasted as long as it did with all the changes. The list of writers and produces after Lemay left makes my head spin. Seems like they were constantly in transition which is probably how the history was so easily lost. 

 

3 hours ago, katie_9918 said:

 

There’s a 1979 (April 11, 1979 to be exact) episode on YouTube, probably uploaded after the Five Faces set, that features Wesley Pfening as Alice, taking place after Sally had run away from boarding school. Also features Michael and Marianne, Rachel, Brian, Ada, Liz, Mac, Rose Perrini, and a few others.

 

I really wish there was more available from that era. Brian seemed like he evolved into a hell of a good catch from his introduction through 1980. I really don’t understand how he didn’t seem to have a good pairing after Iris.

 

I have to shake my head at Mac and Rachel in this period. From what I’ve seen, they spent a lot of time acting like two teenagers obsessed with having their own way with each other, despite all the trouble it had already caused between them.

 

If you search Another World 1979(or any year) it pops a playlist that I’m assuming compiles all that is available on YouTube for each year. I’ve been working my way through the 1979 stuff. I’m currently in the May 21st episode with Jamie  returning. 1979 is not all full episodes but enough to follow the plot lines before I get to 1980-1981 which I think are complete from the AOL airings. 

 

The Cory mansion set is absolutely gorgeous and completely unrecognizable from later episodes I’ve seen. I guess Y&R was the only soap to keep the similar looks to their sets. I love Louise and Brooks. You really get the sense these people have money. I like that there’s a clear separation between the different classes. Also I’m not usually a couple person, but the chemistry between Mac and Rachel is truly unbelievable. I also like that their breakup seems more about her meddling in her sons life than you typical cheating scandal. Janice only seems to be coming into the picture after they’re already living apart. 

 

I’m also enjoying what I’ve seen of the Randolph’s. This Marianne is pretty good but I know none of them stick around so I know not to get attached. Janice seems like an interesting character as well. I was surprised to see Katherine Widdoes on here looking so young. Certainly a more interesting character than he’d longer running ATWT role. Knowing Iris only from Texas shows me what a disservice they did to her character. I enjoyed Texas, but the characters weren’t interesting enough to play against her. You could tell she was greasy but nobody ever really gave her anything to work with on that show. 

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On 1/5/2019 at 1:14 AM, Chris B said:

I’m still searching through YouTube for Another World clips and episodes. I see there’s lots of stuff from the 80s so I plan to start with that once I get past all the 1979 episodes I seem to be finding. Something interesting I found is a series of video complications for the 5 different Alice’s. Considering recasting her was a big part of Lemay’s book, this was a great find for me. Each video is separated by actress and besides the Courtney one which is two parts, they’re each around 15 minutes. I’ll give me thoughts on each actress....

 

Some actresses should never be replaced. Whether I am personally a fan of their work or not, I know that fans would never truly accept anyone taking over for Susan Lucci, Deidre Hall, Kim Zimmer, Genie Francis, etc. Alice was never Alice after Courtney's departure.

 

I do believe Harney was at least a competent actress, but she was too young for the role and came across (IMO) as cool and aloof. She would sometimes have a slack-jaw look on her face, which made her Alice look kind of dumb, LOL. Technically, Vana Tribbey could act as well, but her Alice was (again, IMO) too sexual and "hip," too sarcastic.. Linda Borgenson was shockingly bland and lifeless. No spark, no charisma, no depth. The worst recast, however, was Wesley Pfenning. She ranks down there with Charity Rahmer (DAYS), Ann Hamilton (TGL), Jason Kinkaid (ATWT) and Susan Batten (ATWT) as one of the worst recasts in daytime history. UGH.

 

At least in her final appearances on the show, Alice was played by the one actress who should have been in the role all along: Jacqueline Courtney.

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I know I've said all this before but I do think that Courtney was tremendously good in her 1989 appearances as Alice - she brought so much weight to her scenes, and incredible charisma and melancholy. She was the perfect partner to Victoria Wyndham, who also had that type of style by this time. 

 

I don't know why they didn't take further advantage of Alice, but maybe it's for the best. Can you imagine what JFP would have done to her?

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On 1/5/2019 at 12:00 PM, Efulton said:

I am with you Khan.  I have always thought a Jamie / Alice romance would have blown up Bay City.  It would have given Victoria Wyndham and Jacqueline Courtney years of story. 

 

I personally would have been grossed out by a Jamie/Alice affair. I was watching when Jamie was born into the Matthews family as Alice's "nephew," and then when he grew up as her stepson. I know stranger things have happened in real life, but my first instinct about such a pairing is...eww. I'd rather Alice and Rachel battle over Mac.

 

Of course, maybe I'm just too hypersensitive. I was appalled when Laura Baldwin ran off the man who had RAPED her on GH. I was aghast when Rick slept with Blake on TGL, knowing they had originally been reared as brother and sister. Craig Montgomery and Dani Andropolous on ATWT? Gag me. He had been her stepfather.

 

I imagine even Aunt Liz would have had a stroke upon hearing that Alice was sleeping with Jamie.

 

11 hours ago, Chris B said:

.Finally getting to see Pat it amazes me she was written off. Not only was she a long term vet, but the actress is very beautiful plus she’s part of a core family and has kids that could’ve easily been developed long term. Does anybody know why they wrote her off?

 

 

 

BP was beautiful and talented, and without JC as Alice, Pat had inherited the title of the show's linchpin character from its early days. Rauch and Corinne Jacker wrote her out with the excuse that Pat was out of storyline possibilities which was, of course, insane.

14 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I know I've said all this before but I do think that Courtney was tremendously good in her 1989 appearances as Alice - she brought so much weight to her scenes, and incredible charisma and melancholy. She was the perfect partner to Victoria Wyndham, who also had that type of style by this time. 

 

I don't know why they didn't take further advantage of Alice, but maybe it's for the best. Can you imagine what JFP would have done to her?

 

My only complaint about Courtney's appearance for the show's 25th anniversary is that they did not have her interact with George Reinholt on screen. What a baffling missed opportunity. I wish they had taken advantage of the vintage Alice/Rachel scenes from 1974 to use in flashbacks, instead of the one they did use from March 25, 1985. BUT! It was wonderful to see JC on the show again, and her scenes with VW were filled with history and very satisfying.

 

JFP's getting her grimy little hands on Courtney/Alice. Yikes. The thought alone makes me shudder.

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I was thinking about the whole March 25 1985 episode where Rachel/Alice were interacting... and Rachel without her memory reminded me of the more aggressive/harsh persona from the 1974 episode (where Rachel came demanding Alice vacate the house Steve built for her).  I think having Rachel being more vengeful/aggressive after getting amnesia would have been interesting to explore since she didn't recall who Mac was, the person to help her evolve into the woman she was by 1985 would have been interesting to have explored.  The twist being that Alice wasn't the same young ingenure anymore, but a confident doctor that wouldn't let Rachel bulldoze her (which was more fitting of the 1967-1971 era.. where Alice was sarcastic, confident and would put Rachel in her place).  I wouldn't have Rachel/Alice fighting over Mac... but I would have had it be over Jamie.

 

Jamie could have been confused and disillusioned with his mother not acting like his mother.. and would turn to Alice for advice/guidance.. while Alice would look at Jamie as the son she never had with Steve (thus bringing up the whole miscarriage and Rachel's cruel reminders that she had given Steve the son that Alice couldn't).  I could have seen this new element spanning a long time.. and we could also have Rachel gradually regaining her memory.. and slowly start to reconcile the young nasty Rachel, the mature Rachel, and the Rachel she was when she had amnesia.  

 

I do recall the first months of Harney playing Alice.. that Rachel/Alice weren't close.. or even interacting with one another much.  There was a mention of a library/building built in Steve's honor that Rachel opted not to attend because she didn't want to things harder on Alice.. and I think I recall when Sally's grandmother came around wanting custody.. that Rachel sided with her/Ray over Alice.. but other than that.. no clear mention that the two crossed paths.  I also could buy Alice being more cool/aloof after losing Steve and never getting close to another man again due to not wanting to experience the pain of losing another man she loved.  Alice always did retreat and become almost cool/aloof whenever love/intimacy came into her life (in my opinion due to all the drama surrounding Pat and her bf, the abortion, and Pat killing the guy... I'm sure that deep down Alice closed herself off of love/emotion in response to seeing all the stuff Pat went through... which explained why Alice was slow to warm to Steve and why Rachel was able to get Steve into bed).

 

 

Edited by Soaplovers

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40 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Alice would look at Jamie as the son she never had with Steve (thus bringing up the whole miscarriage

I don't usually indulge in fanfic, but it could have been fun if Alice was a part of Jamie's motivation to change from a writer to a doctor.  She could have become his mentor while he rejected the artiness of his mother.

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7 hours ago, katie_9918 said:

probably uploaded after the Five Faces set

I don't understand this reference - what was the five faces set?

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2 minutes ago, j swift said:

I don't understand this reference - what was the five faces set?

 

The Five Faces of Alice, the set that was referred to in the post I was quoting. The clip featuring Wesley Pfening was not from her time as Alice and I wanted to point out that there is a small sample of her work as Alice.

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For the 25th anni, Alice could have easily had a fantasy of being re-united with Steve, thus allowing Courtney and Reinholt to be together one last time.

 

The Cory set was impressive, although there needed to be an front entrance.

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1 hour ago, katie_9918 said:

 

The Five Faces of Alice, the set that was referred to in the post I was quoting. The clip featuring Wesley Pfening was not from her time as Alice and I wanted to point out that there is a small sample of her work as Alice.

 

Yes I got to see her episode and it took me a minute to figure out it was Alice even though they were talking about Sally. That is such an odd choice for a recast. 

2 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

 

The Cory set was impressive, although there needed to be an front entrance.

 

I didn’t mind that only because they had a staff and I enjoyed hearing the staff greet whoever was at the door instead of them just walking right into these Uber rich peoples homes. It added a bit of depth to the set IMO. 

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4 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Jamie could have been confused and disillusioned with his mother not acting like his mother.. and would turn to Alice for advice/guidance.. while Alice would look at Jamie as the son she never had with Steve (thus bringing up the whole miscarriage and Rachel's cruel reminders that she had given Steve the son that Alice couldn't).  I could have seen this new element spanning a long time.. and we could also have Rachel gradually regaining her memory.. and slowly start to reconcile the young nasty Rachel, the mature Rachel, and the Rachel she was when she had amnesia.  

 

This would work for me. A platonic, mother-son-like bond developing between Alice and Jamie would precipitate conflict between Alice and Rachel and provide both actresses with interesting dynamics to play. Rachel would be filled with insecurity and anger, just like she was in "the old days," and sparks would fly. Particularly if Jamie decided to spend even part of a holiday with Alice at the Matthews house. It would be great if Jamie could become closer to Russ as well.

 

56 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

For the 25th anni, Alice could have easily had a fantasy of being re-united with Steve, thus allowing Courtney and Reinholt to be together one last time.

 

Right. The show had both Jamie and Rachel fantasize about seeing Steven again; why not Alice too? You don't bring back, say, Tony Geary to GH and fail to have him interact on screen with Genie Francis. Reinholt and Courtney had been hugely popular during their heyday. They deserved that reunion, however brief.

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I've been thinking a lot about the dismantling of the Matthews and for all of the historic critiques about the loss of Alice and Pat (my favorite Matthews), it does make dramatic/ratings sense in the context of Sally Frame. 

 

Sally and Caitlin were a super couple and their overseas adventures were coupled with a spike in viewership.  However, structurally, for Sally to work as an underdog with Caitlin against the Loves, she couldn't have the support of her family behind her.  The Loves needed to be powerful in order for them to interfere with Sally and Caitlin.  So, if Sally could depend on Russ's medical expertise when Peter was poisoned at his art deco engagement yacht party, or Pat's support to fight Cecile, or even John Randolph's legal expertise to help Caitlin, then where is the drama?

 

My disappointment at Alice's return, with the bad haircut, at the end of Sally's character was that after all that Sally had been through Alice seemed like a bad mother.  It ruined Alice for me that Sally had an illegitimate child and never told her mother.  So, her styling issues were secondary for me.  Alice's dialogue about Caitlin was so judgmental that it smacked of Liz's treatment of Missy.  I always disliked the Matthews's hypocrisy about the value of family loyalty when they actively drove away most of their children and grandchildren's suitors.   Alice's return cemented that opinion for me.

 

Edited by j swift

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I have heard that Sally was quite popular. If that was the case why kill her off? Was the recast really that bad? Also did they ever attempt to bring back the Matthews in the late 80s or 90s?

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2 hours ago, Chris B said:

I have heard that Sally was quite popular. If that was the case why kill her off? Was the recast really that bad? Also did they ever attempt to bring back the Matthews in the late 80s or 90s?

1

 

I have no knowledge of the real reason for Sally's demise.  However, as a fan, one can surmise a couple of issues.  Taylor Miller was a very poor fit as Sally.  Sharon Gabet's Britney needed to be rehabbed into a more sympathetic character.  Thomas Ian Griffith's Caitlin was probably going to follow Mary Page Keller to California since they married before she left (unfortunately they didn't hyphenate, and she wasn't Mary Page Keller-Ian-Griffith and he wasn't Thomas Mary-Ian Page-Griffith).  So, for Britney to be paired with Caitlin, they had to get rid of Sally. 

 

It was the Curse of the Supercouples that the female partner rarely went on to successful pairings once they split.  Audiences seem more willing to allow guys to go on to other loves, but the ladies were doomed once their partners leave town.

 

Russ and his daughter Olivia came back for a short run in 1989.  And, of course, Russ was the father of Josie Watts, Sharlene's daughter, who was a main character in the final years and survived several recasts (although her Matthews heritage was never really mentioned).

 

BTW is the name Sally completely out of style today?  I don't think I've met a Sally under the age of 50.  Certainly, there are no Pat, Iris or Olive's born after 1998.  When I taught there were always Erica's and Rachel's named after the soaps, but not one Reena.

 

Edited by j swift

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