48 minutes ago, teplin said:

Though there was much more of a comedic element to Phoebe. There was nothing funny about Audrey Lindley's Liz -- she was scary.

I agree for the most part. But Phoebe is the closest comparison I can think of. Both characters had that meddling tendency and would do anything (meaning come up with any scheme) to protect their sons (Linc Tyler and Bill Matthews) from any woman they did not approve of (Kitty and Kelly on AMC, and Missy on AW). And I'll agree that Lindley's Liz was not a humorous character, but there was occasionally some humor in the pomposity of her snobbishness. And that is a similarity to Phoebe.

58 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

I agree for the most part. But Phoebe is the closest comparison I can think of. Both characters had that meddling tendency and would do anything (meaning come up with any scheme) to protect their sons (Linc Tyler and Bill Matthews) from any woman they did not approve of (Kitty and Kelly on AMC, and Missy on AW). And I'll agree that Lindley's Liz was not a humorous character, but there was occasionally some humor in the pomposity of her snobbishness. And that is a similarity to Phoebe.

Do you think that Liz became more like [the future] Phoebe under Agnes Nixon than she was when Irna created the character?

Edited 12 hours ago12 hr by Xanthe

Go to the 32 minute mark of this 1968 episode of AW- Audra Linley’s Liz is featured.

29 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Do you think that Liz became more like [the future] Phoebe under Agnes Nixon than she was when Irna created the character?

I think that is likely correct. But I do not remember Liz while Irna Phillips was writing AW, so I'm only speculating. What do you think??

27 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

I think that is likely correct. But I do not remember Liz while Irna Phillips was writing AW, so I'm only speculating. What do you think??

Definitely before my time, I'm afraid. And I am not familiar enough with AMC to have a good sense of Phoebe really either, although I have been able to see the parallels between Robin Strasser's Rachel and early Erica Kane. I have read that Nixon based Phoebe on the kind of Main Line DAR snobs she had met in Rosemont.

(Tangentially I recently saw a Fred Astaire/Betty Hutton movie with Ruth Warrick and Shepperd Strudwick in secondary roles and I imagined until the very end that they were going to wind up together, but it seemed they were both left single.)

59 minutes ago, watson71 said:

Go to the 32 minute mark of this 1968 episode of AW- Audra Linley’s Liz is featured.

Thank you! Clearly Lenore's mother has had it up to here with Liz but it feels like if you didn't know the backstory you can't appreciate just how unreasonable Liz must have been, claiming that she is perfectly happy with Missy as her daughter-in-law.

I want the Ada doll, with the dish towel over her shoulder

1 hour ago, watson71 said:

Go to the 32 minute mark of this 1968 episode of AW- Audra Linley’s Liz is featured.

That was great! Thanks so much

For a while there was audio of Audra Lindley's Liz, on a nasty, scary tirade. Against her son maybe?

How did Nancy Wickwire fit in? More like Audra Lindley or more like Irene Dailey?

22 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Definitely before my time, I'm afraid. And I am not familiar enough with AMC to have a good sense of Phoebe really either, although I have been able to see the parallels between Robin Strasser's Rachel and early Erica Kane. I have read that Nixon based Phoebe on the kind of Main Line DAR snobs she had met in Rosemont.

Comparing Nixon's writing for Liz with her writing for Phoebe -- Phoebe was like Liz on steroids. Everything about Phoebe was bigger and more over the top than Liz. Often to the point of being unbelievable. Liz was more grounded in reality, but I do see many similarities and parallels. Even similar plots. Not to mention, Phoebe was an alcoholic (Liz was not), which added a clear difference between the two characters.

new bbc show from hulu. the creators likely had no idea when they named the characters. the show looks good

alice and steve review

1 hour ago, Tisy-Lish said:

Not to mention, Phoebe was an alcoholic (Liz was not), which added a clear difference between the two characters.

I wonder if that had anything to do with timing -- would Liz also have become an alcoholic if Agnes Nixon had known a specific alcoholic when she was writing the storyline?

I found this (obviously more about OLTL and AMC):

“I did recognize a few things,” says Nixon’s daughter Mary Hiltbrand, today an artist in Gladwyne. “I got sober, and when I got sober, a lot of the characters started getting sober. Erica went to rehab after I did.” “My brother had an illness that she gave to one of her characters,” adds Cathy Chicos, Nixon’s eldest daughter, who also lives in Gladwyne. “I’m sure there were others.”

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2007/06/08/legends-the-original-desperate-housewife/

12 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

I wonder if that had anything to do with timing -- would Liz also have become an alcoholic if Agnes Nixon had known a specific alcoholic when she was writing the storyline?

I found this (obviously more about OLTL and AMC):

“I did recognize a few things,” says Nixon’s daughter Mary Hiltbrand, today an artist in Gladwyne. “I got sober, and when I got sober, a lot of the characters started getting sober. Erica went to rehab after I did.” “My brother had an illness that she gave to one of her characters,” adds Cathy Chicos, Nixon’s eldest daughter, who also lives in Gladwyne. “I’m sure there were others.”

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2007/06/08/legends-the-original-desperate-housewife/

I don't know about the timing, but I'd estimate Phoebe became an alcoholic around 1978-79. No idea how old Nixon's daughter was at that time. But the daughter may have been too young to have triggered Phoebe's drinking problem. Who knows??

16 minutes ago, Tisy-Lish said:

I don't know about the timing, but I'd estimate Phoebe became an alcoholic around 1978-79. No idea how old Nixon's daughter was at that time. But the daughter may have been too young to have triggered Phoebe's drinking problem. Who knows??

Was Erica also an alcoholic? The daughter refers to getting sober and that could have been something else. I was thinking more generally since the daughter mentions Erica rather than Phoebe. (And forgive me, I don't mean to quiz you as if you must know the answer, I am really just speculating and welcome any insight or speculation.)

15 minutes ago, Xanthe said:

Was Erica also an alcoholic? The daughter refers to getting sober and that could have been something else. I was thinking more generally since the daughter mentions Erica rather than Phoebe. (And forgive me, I don't mean to quiz you as if you must know the answer, I am really just speculating and welcome any insight or speculation.)

I'm not sure Erica was ever an alcoholic, but she did become a drug addict -- maybe in the late-1990s or 2000s. Pain killers, if I recall correctly. But certainly far far later than Phoebe's drinking problem.

Perhaps if Nixon had remained head-writer at AW for a few more years, Liz might have eventually developed a drinking problem. I guess we will never know...

Edited 8 hours ago8 hr by Tisy-Lish

2 hours ago, Tisy-Lish said:

I'm not sure Erica was ever an alcoholic, but she did become a drug addict -- maybe in the late-1990s or 2000s. Pain killers, if I recall correctly. But certainly far far later than Phoebe's drinking problem.

Perhaps if Nixon had remained head-writer at AW for a few more years, Liz might have eventually developed a drinking problem. I guess we will never know...

I think so too. I dont remember any of it but my two older sisters told me how mean Liz had been. When I started watching in earnest, Irene Dailey's Aunt Liz was just starting. I was told to expect a huge old bag bitch. But damn me to hell, I came to love old Aunt Liz.