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I don't understand how this is going to work. What happens if Republicans refuse to vote for the first package and Manchin and Sinema then refuse to vote for reconciliation?

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Supposedly, per further up the page, they won't do that. I don't think Schumer would go there unless he knows at this point, bc so many House and Senate Dems have made it clear they will not vote for a bait and switch infrastructure bill without a confirmed reconciliation. I still don't think the first bill will happen.

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6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

I don't understand how this is going to work. What happens if Republicans refuse to vote for the first package and Manchin and Sinema then refuse to vote for reconciliation?

Republicans are not going to vote for the first package.  That's what's been so ridiculous about this. How many times does McConnell have to say it.

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Posted (edited)

Back in October, when the Reps hastily swore in Amy Coney Barrett in the dead of night and held a big ole WH Covid party, Mitch McConnell made a triumphant speech to the Senate where he crowed "Losing elections has consequences." The Reps are in the business of winning and holding onto power -- by any means necessary. Even if it means sanctioning some kind of 'undemocratic' coup.

 

I wish The Dems would realise this and start to play the game as ruthlessly as the Reps do because the Reps are riding roughshod over them and us as a country.

Edited by Cat
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31 minutes ago, Cat said:

I wish The Dems would realise this and start to play the game as ruthlessly as the Reps do because the Reps are riding roughshod over them and us as a country.

 

Dems can't play the game as ruthlessly as Reps because our side will turn on us. 2016 should've been the final lesson in how capricious and treacherous the left is. Ever since Biden got elected our side has done nothing but bitch, moan, and complain. 

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31 minutes ago, marceline said:

 

Dems can't play the game as ruthlessly as Reps because our side will turn on us. 2016 should've been the final lesson in how capricious and treacherous the left is. Ever since Biden got elected our side has done nothing but bitch, moan, and complain. 

 

Which is rather illogical as he's actually turned out to have somewhat more progressive policies than they (and I, in fact) had initially anticipated. Sigh.

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36 minutes ago, marceline said:

 

Dems can't play the game as ruthlessly as Reps because our side will turn on us. 2016 should've been the final lesson in how capricious and treacherous the left is. Ever since Biden got elected our side has done nothing but bitch, moan, and complain. 

So many years of years of GOP strong arming, their do nothing attitude in terms of doing anything(yes thats intentional) I think has made a lot of people impatient. Legislation takes time. Do people not remember that the ACA took over a year? And then democrats didn't show up in 2010. 

 

My own frustration really is about the media coverage. They have learned nothing and have kept up the stupid narratives they used from the Obama and Clinton terms. I will never understand why to this day McConnell who has done more to undermine democracy than anyone continues to get coddled - well outside of the fact that the big money in the media behind the pages and camera love him.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JaneAusten said:

So many years of years of GOP strong arming, their do nothing attitude in terms of doing anything(yes thats intentional) I think has made a lot of people impatient. Legislation takes time. Do people not remember that the ACA took over a year? And then democrats didn't show up in 2010. 

 

My own frustration really is about the media coverage. They have learned nothing and have kept up the stupid narratives they used from the Obama and Clinton terms. I will never understand why to this day McConnell who has done more to undermine democracy than anyone continues to get coddled - well outside of the fact that the big money in the media behind the pages and camera love him.

 

It's because the media loves Republicans. They see them as strong, funny, cool, and the fathers they need. McConnell provides lots of story for them because he can be written as a schemer, a badass who always wins. Even now he is seen as dominating the show, and I can't say people are wrong to feel that way. 

 

I think some of the criticism of Biden is unfair, and of the party as a whole, but I think some, like the backlash against Manchin and Sinema, or the confusion over the sluggish implementation and poor public selling (something the GOP and their media puppets are expert at doing, every time) on just how serious 1/6 was and how close it is to happening again, how close we are to losing our democracy for good, is warranted. 

 

The bad strategies with the ACA were the type of problem that initially people were hoping would not happen again - that we are back in that world, only with 9-10 less seats in the Senate and many less in the House, is likely another reason so many are frightened and angry. It feels like nothing is happening, and the most we get is baby steps to a little crumb here and there. 

 

Over and over we have stories like this:

 

Once upon a time I might have believed that this made sense as a strategy - that moving on from Trump would let people heal - but Trump is still here, and so many Republicans are still making their party in his image. There's nothing to move on to. If they think voters will reward them for their charity and kindness, that won't happen.

Edited by DRW50
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@drw50  I think that last story is a huge mistake but the GOP does this crap all the time - makes things huge issues and then crickets.  In this case again a HUUGGEE mistake. But then I am not sure what the content would be and would likely end up being nothing.   I honestly don't buy anything secretive was said in these meetings. Putin just used it to his advantage and trump is too transparent to not have blabbed anything.

 

As for the rest I think you're wrong about the reasons behind the media. It may have started out that way with Tiger Beat Politico but I think the major news outlets and publications - well it's all about the money behind the scenes. Whether it's advertisers or wealthy influencers and ownership.  This overinflation of this meeting with Putin is a prime example. I frankly don't get what the media sees in Putin. Hes actually quite fragile, which most men who try to be strongmen are. I saw him sitting in that chair looking like a child. I suppose he thought it made him look like he didnt care but it made him look petulant and Bidens posture was like the dad trying to teach the kid a lesson but to hear the media you'd never believe that.

 

And you're being unfair in saying nothing has gotten done.  We have almost 70% of our adult population vaccinated, a huge Rescue plan passed that actually helped people and businesses that actually needed it. And it's only June.  But we don't have those wealthy donors at the same level the GOP does so it's up to US to put pressure on our representatives. I've joined the Poor Peoples campaign and our local group is following Fair Fights example of calling our senators daily. EACH DAY. Put pressure on.  It doesn't matter if we have 2 democrats, Duckworth can be a little too cozy in some instances to the defense industry. Now they both support S-1 but the daily calls don't hurt and it says we mean business. I hope more people do this.  Listen if we listened to the media and press we'd have given up before Obama was elected. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JaneAusten said:

And you're being unfair in saying nothing has gotten done.  We have almost 70% of our adult population vaccinated, a huge Rescue plan passed that actually helped people and businesses that actually needed it. And it's only June.  

 

Not only that. Biden's judges and cabinet nominees are being confirmed. The DOJ just came out with a plan to address domestic terrorism. Hundreds of insurrectionists have been arrested and charged. Harris has negotiated numerous agreements with Northern Triangle countries that address the root causes of migration. Biden's overseas trip has been a rousing success so far. We got bipartisan support on the AAPI Hate Crimes Act and Juneteenth is about to become a national holiday.

 

The only reason to feel like nothing is happening is because one is invested in feeling that way.

Edited by marceline
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23 minutes ago, JaneAusten said:

As for the rest I think you're wrong about the reasons behind the media. It may have started out that way with Tiger Beat Politico but I think the major news outlets and publications - well it's all about the money behind the scenes. Whether it's advertisers or wealthy influencers and ownership.  This overinflation of this meeting with Putin is a prime example. I frankly don't get what the media sees in Putin. Hes actually quite fragile, which most men who try to be strongmen are. I saw him sitting in that chair looking like a child. I suppose he thought it made him look like he didnt care but it made him look petulant and Bidens posture was like the dad trying to teach the kid a lesson but to hear the media you'd never believe that.

 

And you're being unfair in saying nothing has gotten done.  We have almost 70% of our adult population vaccinated, a huge Rescue plan passed that actually helped people and businesses that actually needed it. And it's only June.  But we don't have those wealthy donors at the same level the GOP does so it's up to US to put pressure on our representatives. I've joined the Poor Peoples campaign and our local group is following Fair Fights example of calling our senators daily. EACH DAY. Put pressure on.  It doesn't matter if we have 2 democrats, Duckworth can be a little too cozy in some instances to the defense industry. Now they both support S-1 but the daily calls don't hurt and it says we mean business. I hope more people do this.  Listen if we listened to the media and press we'd have given up before Obama was elected. 

 

Money is a factor, but it's also an ecosystem designed to believe Republicans, especially white male Republicans, are the ideal, are true thought leaders and noble warriors willing to talk tough. I remember the media being gleeful over being invited to gatherings by McCain, and by him remembering their favorite donut toppings. I remember a male reporter actually writing that even being in the same room with Mitt Romney sexually aroused him, because he was so masculine.  More recently, there was endless media hype in alleged mainstream publications over the likes of Tim Pawlenty ("Sam's Club Republican"), Scott Walker, Josh Hawley (who was supposed to be the next Teddy Roosevelt), etc. Rand Paul got a glowing TIME cover story. Paul Ryan was supposed to cure poverty by...occasionally going to see poor people and looking sad (then cutting all their benefits). 

 

The vaccine situation has been so clouded and polarized, and the stimulus package will be over a year and half old by the time voting starts for the general midterm. I'm not going to downplay them, but I don't think they are going to be anywhere near enough. The only chance of breaking even in 2022 is to have decisions and leadership which I don't think we are seeing. That's nothing against people who call and volunteer and work their hardest. It's just when you have people like Kristen SInema, who seem to actively hate their base, or Joe Manchin, who would rather tell everyone how morally righteous they are than actually do anything, not to mention the other senators hiding behind these two, the power is out of their hands. 

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Posted (edited)

Could be Manchin vamping for more attention, but this is still a surprise:

 

 

As to everything else: I have lots of issues with how the Congress is always insistent on avoiding dealing with real criminality among the GOP they break bread with, and always bangs the drum about 'focusing on kitchen table issues' instead every [!@#$%^&*] session. It's a cliche. I understand the Dems are a big tent and that focusing on those issues is integral for certain seats in certain parts of the country, but that does not mean that it's acceptable to regularly punt any responsibility for investigations on Barr or 1/6 or whatever else to a DOJ that is currently not inclined to go beyond enforcing past norms. I also don't agree the media has shrugged off 1/6 - they haven't, outside of the right wing. They still see it as very serious; it's the Dems in the Congress who are still struggling to create a coherent response to it. That's not acceptable, and I say that as someone who is a big fan of Pelosi generally. On a related note, I'm sure Merrick Garland is a decent man but ensuring continuity of old norms and old governmental process only matters insofar as it can be upheld and protected, not routinely violated by one party without any consequences or retribution. DOJ has to do better and so does the House Judiciary. I don't want to hear about another month of 'collating options' followed by toothless letters and subpoena demands that are ignored by their recipients with zero consequence or enforcement just like when Trump took office. I'm not saying turn the entire congressional session into the French Revolution, but if you have to haul some people in, do it. You can both govern on important local issues and do the necessary on these things. Because after a certain point it's not just about good governing, it's optics.

 

Why? Because one thing the Republicans learned long ago is that their base, and I suspect a large portion of our uncurious segment of the base as well, responds to brute strength. If you're explaining why the Republicans are lying bc of all these GOP logical fallacies, you're losing. Nobody in the squishy middle cares. They care about action. If you can drag those guys in and look tough sometimes, do it. If you can pass a bill, do it. I think Biden had a very strong showing in the first few months, but I do think this infrastructure drag searching for imaginary Republican votes is bogging things down. I don't think that's all his fault; I think it's something foisted on them by Manchin's preening ego until such time as he decides okay, they won't happen and he votes for reconciliation after all (as he usually does) while sighing loudly for the benefit of Beltway reporters.

 

But do I think Biden's administration and agenda has somehow collapsed in record time in a furor of unforced errors or struggling initiatives - no. It's only been a few long weeks of this and that's hyperbole. Again, I don't take the Will Stancils of the world remotely seriously. Loud angry white guys shaking their fists at Nancy Pelosi or Obama who think they know how to run government have been a cottage industry since at least 2009. That doesn't mean there aren't things that can't be done better across the administration, starting now. I hope the push by Schumer for a reconciliation bill period is the beginning of that. And I do think a voting rights bill will also be passed, by hook or by crook. The other Senators who supposedly agree with Manchin will not have the courage to block anything without his vote.

Edited by Vee
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