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17 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I'm surprised Elizabeth Warren is calling for his impeachment. She's a very intelligent person who knows how this would end. It feels like a Hail Mary for a campaign that has stalled. 

 

Warren is actually my first choice right now but this points to a concern I have with her. She has a tendency to be reactive to this kind of thing. I canceled her because of her comments about Obama's speaking fees and her agreement that the 2016 primary was "rigged" and the whole mess with her DNA test. She tends to jump the gun.

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I like Warren a lot but IMO she fatally wounded herself as a candidate by playing Trump's game and releasing stupid genealogy results on demand for him, which only embarrassed her further. He will play her with that forever. He turned her into Jeb/Cruz.

 

I think it's too early to declare 2020 to be 2016 Part 2. I will say I'm sure glad it's not 2020 right now.

Edited by Vee

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It says something about the state of U.S. politics that I'm actually surprised that an arrest has been made, any at all.

 

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To a great extent the FBI is going to do it's job despite what Trump wants. Federal authorities tend to really dislike militia types and will arrest them whenever possible.

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The impeachment talk actually made me like Warren more. Due to the Native American scandal I've been put off on her, but her policies seem good and I like that she actually has them. I still believe Kamala is the best choice to go against Trump, but the impeachment talk showed me Warren isn't afraid to say what she truly feels. If you look at Nixon and Clinton's impeachments, the Mueller report with what we know is more than enough to impeach him. Throw in all of the other investigations (like the campaign finance violations, tax and other business issues) and it's a slam dunk in terms of potential charges. Now I do agree the Senate is unlikely to impeach him, but that's only because the republicans are now corrupt.

 

I just feel like at every turn Democrats are being played. We all know Trump is a liar and guilty of many crimes. Hell the Mueller report even states how many things weren't able to be followed up with because he was instructing his people to lie and they were destroying evidence. I feel like if we don't do anything there's little hope for 2020. Many say a failed impeachment would hurt us, but it didn't hurt republicans with Clinton. They got 8 years of success after impeachment on shaky grounds. Without it I don't see how you can get all the evidence out in time and fight the propaganda. It's the only way to truly expose the level of corruption. Plus, I feel the way Barr has set things up they could be in court for YEARS trying to get an unredacted Mueller report. What those 14 redacted investigations are could easily be what they need to impeach him, but we have no way of knowing that. Plus, how do you know Barr won't end or slow down those investigations? We have to try SOMETHING.

 

Also, considering Trump didn't get in any trouble for Russia hacking our election, what reason would he have not to let them do the same again? Even if we get the perfect candidate what does that matter if Russia does the same thing? Status of limitations on obstruction run out during his next term (as Mueller pointed out). They'll get better at covering their tracks so after 8 years he could have destroyed the country and we won't be able to do anything about it. I feel like if democrats don't impeach they'll run the risk of losing many younger voters who will feel hopeless.

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12 minutes ago, Chris B said:

Many say a failed impeachment would hurt us, but it didn't hurt republicans with Clinton. They got 8 years of success after impeachment on shaky grounds. 

 

They lost House seats, lost Senate seats (they were at near-parity in the House in 2000, before the new maps came in, and lost the Senate in 2001 due to a party switch), and would have lost the White House if not for Florida rigging and Supreme Court rigging. 

13 minutes ago, Chris B said:

Also, considering Trump didn't get in any trouble for Russia hacking our election, what reason would he have not to let them do the same again? Even if we get the perfect candidate what does that matter if Russia does the same thing? Status of limitations on obstruction run out during his next term (as Mueller pointed out). They'll get better at covering their tracks so after 8 years he could have destroyed the country and we won't be able to do anything about it. I feel like if democrats don't impeach they'll run the risk of losing many younger voters who will feel hopeless.

 

If the young voters are only voting on impeachment, then we're already doomed, because it means they put something that will make no difference (no one who doesn't already believe Trump is corrupt will have their opinion changed, there will be no charges, and the Republicans will spin it to their advantage day in and day out, along with their media friends) over cold hard reality. 

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I can see an argument for impeaching Trump in this instance, which is something I never thought I'd say given the state of the Senate. I think grinding him down with the slow process of investigations is the best continued move - we'll be doing that anyway. Could impeachment be at the end of it? Maybe. Could it work well in this instance politically? Maybe. But honestly, that is all it is going to potentially do. And it has just as much potential to backfire.

 

Unless we have a slam dunk in the Senate, impeachment proceedings will stall eventually. It may energize the base, but the media and the public have been trained to see impeachment as strictly a political tool as opposed to a necessary tool for the public trust, which will take many years to redefine. The media will hound Democrats about daring to impeach without the votes and both sides-it to death. And that will resonate for a lot of dumb people. Yes, I think he should be impeached. I could even get behind it happening now in this limited form. But unless everything is played perfectly in the public eye - which it won't be - it stands a very, very good choice of blowing back on us and hurting us next year with dumb people in the middle. And the media will never support Democrats on impeachment. They just won't. So it's an uphill battle at best. I'd rather just keep grinding him down, which we are doing. This report would never have been released if not for the wins we have now.

Edited by Vee

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Frankly, I'm with Nancy Pelosi: impeachment would serve only to divide us further as a nation.  Heck, it could result in states literally seceding from the union.

 

No, as I see it, voting Trump out of office, while continuing to prosecute his cronies, is the best way to handle the situation.  Let SDNY be the ones to prosecute and even incarcerate his basic ass.

 

3 hours ago, Vee said:

And the media will never support Democrats on impeachment.

 

Among other things. ;)

Edited by Khan

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If the report had recommended charges then Democrats would have had a better chance at filing impeachment. Instead it's basically a situation where there was clear wrongdoing but not enough hard evidence to bring charges. There is no legal precedent that lines up with much of what Trump and his campaign did, plus Trump Jr. avoided charges due to ignorance.

 

With all that said there is plenty in the report to draft legislation that defines  collusion and strengthens penalties for foreign money and assistance in elections, plus add tools to secure elections. If Republicans vote against that or Trump vetoes it, then Democrats can create a good narrative going into the election. "Keep other countries out of our elections" and "preserve our democracy" are exactly the sort of phrases that play on voters patriotism and in a diverse way.

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6 hours ago, ReddFoxx said:

With all that said there is plenty in the report to draft legislation that defines  collusion and strengthens penalties for foreign money and assistance in elections, plus add tools to secure elections. If Republicans vote against that or Trump vetoes it, then Democrats can create a good narrative going into the election. "Keep other countries out of our elections" and "preserve our democracy" are exactly the sort of phrases that play on voters patriotism and in a diverse way.

 

Bingo.

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He was never getting any of the Bernie supporters anyway. They hate him and see him as a threat to their king. They hate everybody.

 

He wasn't wrong. Some of Bernie's most vocal supporters, like Susan Sarandon, said some of these things. 

 

I saw an article in The Atlantic earlier today where a number of them were interviewed and either said outright they were only voting for Sanders, no other nominee, or said it without saying it.

 

They don't care about this country. They don't care about anything but themselves and their grifter hero. 

 

They are awful people. They are pond scum. And they are no better than Trump supporters. At this point I'd say they are worse, because many of them should know better.

Edited by DRW50

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They were going to come after Buttigieg anyway because he is going to win some of the softer, saner Sanders voters from 2016. This will be their excuse to go homophobic which I'm sure they were waiting to do. Plenty of them have racist tendencies so there really is no limit to how low they will stoop.

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23 minutes ago, ReddFoxx said:

They were going to come after Buttigieg anyway because he is going to win some of the softer, saner Sanders voters from 2016. This will be their excuse to go homophobic which I'm sure they were waiting to do. Plenty of them have racist tendencies so there really is no limit to how low they will stoop.

 

They are the ones most likely to go on about "booty" and butt plug, along with the right wingers. 

 

Bernie supporters and Trump supporters are exactly the same. Their reaction to even mild attempts to talk about the similarity tells you it's true. 

 

They make me sick, and so does he. They have already made the primary a toxic waste of time and it's barely even started. By the time we get to November it will take everything I have not to stay home. 

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