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1 hour ago, JaneAusten said:

And yes Medicare for All is a common sense policy even supported by 55% of republicans.

 

Frankly, I think that when it comes to the issues that affect Americans most directly -- healthcare, economy/job markets, education -- there's more common ground than the GOP cares to admit.  Again, that's why the GOP hates the Democrats in general, and the Clintons in particular, because the left knows how to stick to the message ("It's the economy, stupid!") in ways that they can't, leaving the GOP to run on smear campaigns, (white) identity politics and bullshit "social issues" that ain't got jack to do with how me and my family are gonna eat.

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1 hour ago, JaneAusten said:

 

 

For all the faults democrats have, and there are many as the endless chastising by the media tells us, I still don’t believe the insurgency is anywhere near as bad as what the Tea Party did. For all the crowing about how the democrats can’t go far left, very few of them won races. And Before I hear about Beto and Gillum,and Abrams, these folks are not far left, they support common sense policies. And yes Medicare for All is a common sense policy even supported by 55% of republicans. Or maybe the compromise becomes giving people a public option to purchase. 

Absolutely. Bernie comes out with these lofty ideas about folding every person in the country into medicare, and the other side just blanches at that. How hard is it to simply have a public option with ZERO mandates attached to it, that is only available to those below a certain income level (Like 400% of the poverty level, which would be about 48,000 a year for a single person) you pay on a sliding scale, and subsidized by something like a marijuana tax or junk food tax, or both. 

It also seems easy to me for gun regulation, instead trying to ban these AR platform rifle, to put them under a restricted status, and make it so you've got to have a special permit to own one, similar to a Truck driver who has to have a CDL. And then if you have a class A misdemeanor or anything worse in your history, you would be denied the permit. 

Edited by alphanguy74
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7 minutes ago, alphanguy74 said:

Absolutely. Bernie comes out with these lofty ideas about folding every person in the country into medicare, and the other side just blanches at that. How hard is it to simply have a public option with ZERO mandates attached to it, that is only available to those below a certain income level (Like 400% of the poverty level, which would be about 48,000 a year for a single person) you pay on a sliding scale, and subsidized by something like a marijuana tax or junk food tax, or both. 

The other side as you call it was the Pelosi led house which passed the ACA with a PUBLIC OPTION. What killed it? The senate's Joe Liebermann.

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2 minutes ago, JaneAusten said:

The other side as you call it was the Pelosi led house which passed the ACA with a PUBLIC OPTION. What killed it? The senate's Joe Liebermann.

but wasn't there mandates attached? It all needs to be completely optional ... when I say "The other side", I mean conservatives in general have this idea that "medicare for all" mean every single person in the country will be FORCED onto it, with no choice. 

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1 hour ago, alphanguy74 said:

It also seems easy to me for gun regulation, instead trying to ban these AR platform rifle, to put them under a restricted status, and make it so you've got to have a special permit to own one, similar to a Truck driver who has to have a CDL. And then if you have a class A misdemeanor or anything worse in your history, you would be denied the permit. 

Universal background checks is supported by 95% of Americans. I'd start there. And I am all for regulating the AR15 first. But I think what needs to happen is pass Universal Background checks, and initiate a study and hearings on gun reform by congress and gather FACTS and then come up with a comprehensive gun reform package.  This idea of just spewing out ideas and passing legislation written by lobbyists needs to go away, and we need to pass FACT BASED legislation. I am hoping the influx of some new voices in congress, scientists, engineers, medical professionals, all pushing for gun reform, will help lead us back into that direction.

 

 

1 hour ago, alphanguy74 said:

but wasn't there mandates attached? It all needs to be completely optional ... when I say "The other side", I mean conservatives in general have this idea that "medicare for all" mean every single person in the country will be FORCED onto it, with no choice. 

Without the mandates we are back to insurance companies being able to charge astronomical rates to people like me with PEC's and people over 50. I'm all for that if those with PEC's or anyone who insurance companies discriminate against based on age are allowed access to a public option. Lowering the age for Medicare which was one item discussed would have solved a lot of this. 

 

Frankly people who are so in love with the idea of a free market should love gvmt healthcare. It opens up the job market. Medicare is wildly popular. And it gets employers out of the business having to worry about providing healthcare to their employees. The other thing it does. It frees up employees who feel locked into staying with an employer because of healthcare provisions. I'm frankly flabbergasted why more so called freedom loving no regulation voters don't want this.

Edited by JaneAusten
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10 hours ago, JaneAusten said:

Universal background checks is supported by 95% of Americans. I'd start there. And I am all for regulating the AR15 first. But I think what needs to happen is pass Universal Background checks, and initiate a study and hearings on gun reform by congress and gather FACTS and then come up with a comprehensive gun reform package.  This idea of just spewing out ideas and passing legislation written by lobbyists needs to go away, and we need to pass FACT BASED legislation. I am hoping the influx of some new voices in congress, scientists, engineers, medical professionals, all pushing for gun reform, will help lead us back into that direction.

 

 

Without the mandates we are back to insurance companies being able to charge astronomical rates to people like me with PEC's and people over 50. I'm all for that if those with PEC's or anyone who insurance companies discriminate against based on age are allowed access to a public option. Lowering the age for Medicare which was one item discussed would have solved a lot of this. 

 

Frankly people who are so in love with the idea of a free market should love gvmt healthcare. It opens up the job market. Medicare is wildly popular. And it gets employers out of the business having to worry about providing healthcare to their employees. The other thing it does. It frees up employees who feel locked into staying with an employer because of healthcare provisions. I'm frankly flabbergasted why more so called freedom loving no regulation voters don't want this.

That's an easy problem to solve. Make PEC's autmoatically covered by all insurance companies, and cap premiums at 7% of your income. They'll just have to force the insurance companies to do it by law. The other idea I had was to have networks of doctors and hospitals that you can pay directly into, almost like a gym membership. Cut the middle man out altogether. 

Edited by alphanguy74
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2 hours ago, alphanguy74 said:

That's an easy problem to solve. Make PEC's autmoatically covered by all insurance companies, and cap premiums at 7% of your income. They'll just have to force the insurance companies to do it by law. The other idea I had was to have networks of doctors and hospitals that you can pay directly into, almost like a gym membership. But the middle man out altogether. 

So someone making 100k a year has to pay 7k a year for insurance.  What about if it’s a family? Does a family of 4 pay 28%?

 

Networks are exactly what the diff insurance plans are. As we talk the answer is one source like Medicare, one source that negotiates and handles all the pricing.

 

i just don’t believe the free market works in terms of healthcare unless it’s HEAVILY regulated and the Insurance industry would hate that.

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6 hours ago, JaneAusten said:

I guess my point was how big a price would any of these people paid at the polls if they strongly held to their convictions and reran. Costello announced he was not running and Charlie Dent left. But I think my point is that maybe some of these folks would have gotten beaten anyway. Their own tax bill was a flop, Americans apparently in swing districts, districts filled with more educated republicans like in the Illinois 6th knew the bill hurt them. What reason did people like Roskam,, Randy Hultgren in Illinois,  Faso in New York, MacArthur in New Jersey, the many GOP congresspeople in California support a bill they knew would hurt their constitutents and drive up the deficit to astronomical amounts.  Trump is a disgusting pig and no, aligning themselves with him would have hurt them more(Hultgren was actually at. Trump rally in Illinois before the election, a candidate Trump supported and he lost). But there is a deeper issue I don’t see a lot of republicans or former republicans acknowledge. That this started years ago,

 

For all the faults democrats have, and there are many as the endless chastising by the media tells us, I still don’t believe the insurgency is anywhere near as bad as what the Tea Party did. For all the crowing about how the democrats can’t go far left, very few of them won races. And Before I hear about Beto and Gillum,and Abrams, these folks are not far left, they support common sense policies. And yes Medicare for All is a common sense policy even supported by 55% of republicans. Or maybe the compromise becomes giving people a public option to purchase. And I haven’t heard one of them, including Beto who’s from El Paso, talk about open borders. And reforming ICE is not radical, it’s a necessity, especially since now ICE is claiming they are not responsible for their employees for sexual abusing detainees, because their situations are not like they are in prison(prisoners are protected), so it must be mutual consent. 

 

Why should they they be mad at Trump. He’s doing what he always does, makes it about him. Even one of those articles you posted indicates Ryan refused to bring their bill to a vote. And that piece Carl posted from The NY Times was excellent and showed the disarray with the GOP and how disciplined the democrats have been this time, and Pelosi deserves a lot of that credit. Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell deserve much of the blame. And before people start crowing about the senate, it’s likely the senate might gain 2 seats. Is that supposed to be a huge success for the best map they’ve had in over 100 years. They lost Montana, Ohio, and Michigan we’ll see how republicans next election do in places,like Colorado and Maine and Arizona and Iowa.

 

Jane, I'm in full agreement with you that more conservatives opposed to Trump need to publicly acknowledge the factors that caused the party to devolve into its current state. That doesn't mean retroactively agreeing with Democratic policy positions, but it does mean recognizing that the GOP has had a long history of appealing to white resentment voters. I can't speak for anybody else, but there were several reasons why I was able to justify staying in the GOP prior to the Trump Era in spite of the history of appealing to white resentment. First, there was the obvious fact that I agreed (and still agree) with much of the GOP platform (pre-Trump). Second, I didn't realize how many people in the GOP are white nationalists; but after Trump's nomination, it should be evident to anybody that the GOP has a serious racism problem. Third, even though I was aware of the GOP’s history of appealing to white resentment voters, I was (and still am) upset over the Democrat’s recent history of appealing to black resentment voters by embracing figures such as Al Sharpton. (I’m not in any way suggesting that the black racism is equivalent to white racism, given the history of the country. But aside from those on the far-left who believe that only members of the majority can be racists, most would acknowledge that there are individuals of every skin color who are bigoted against individuals of other races.) And finally, I found it hypocritical for Democrats to criticize the GOP for appealing to white racists when it was only until very recently that Democrats weren’t willing to capitalize on such appeals if it benefited them politically. It would be one thing if all the white racists suddenly left the Democratic Party in 1964, but that’s not what happened. For starters, these same voters consistently supported Democrats in all races other than presidential elections prior to 1994. There were also Democrats in prominent positions in the 2000s—such as Robert Byrd and Fritz Hollings—who had reprehensible racial histories. But most hypocritical, IMO, was how the Democratic base seems to have forgotten just how ugly Hillary’s own 2008 presidential bid was. So when you put all of the factors I mentioned in this paragraph together, I hope that folks here can somewhat understand why I felt comfortable being part of the GOP prior to Trump’s rise.

 

On an entirely different matter, the Democratic Party is far more liberal than it was 20 years ago. One may not believe that today’s Democratic Party is far-left or even liberal, but it’s hard to dispute that it has moved in a dramatically leftward direction relative to where it was when WJC was president. Back in the 1990s, you had a Democratic POUTS who claimed that “the era of big government is over” and signed into law GOP bills such as welfare reform. Flash forward to 2016, and you have a Democratic Party in which Bernie Sanders becomes a major contender for the nomination. And I am very much opposed to much of the current Democratic platform. It’s one thing to reform ICE, but you now have Democrats who are calling for its abolition. Many liberals also support a $15 minimum wage which would place an enormous burden on small-to-medium sized businesses and almost certainly lead to a rise in prices. And medicare for all is also a proposal that has serious drawbacks:

 

"Kenneth Thorpe, a health policy professor at Emory University in Atlanta, authored one of the earlier studies and says the Mercatus analysis reinforces them.

 

 

Edited by Max
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@Max

 

Thanks Max. I appreciate your response

 

First, not one person will argue about the histories of the 2 individuals you mentioned. Byrd denounced his role many years before he died. I guess I am not sure why those histories keep getting dragged out when pointing out racism in the Democratic party. We all know what happened with the Southern Strategy. Lee Atwater confessed his complicity in it in an interview when he was dying and it's influence in the GOP.

 

2008 was a very nasty campaign for the democrats. Actually IMO it was more Bill than Hillary. I won't give them a pass. But as a white person it's not up to me to decide if the Clinton team should be given a pass. For example I still will never vote for Joe Biden for president due to Anita Hill. But lots of people have given him a pass. That's each person's individual decision.

 

As for the GOP, I would like to know what policies they embrace or claim to that you support. My dad was a republican but jumped ship after Reagan(and he wasn't a huge Reagan fan - deficits). If it's about smaller gvmt, that's a lost debate. We've turned a lot of work over to private defense contractors and private prison contractors, both of whom rake us over the coals in terms of costs. Our federally run prisons cost significantly less per prisoner than the private prison contractors, and we now stay engaged militarily, many times serving crimes against humanity such as in Yemen, to keep the Lockheed Martin profits rolling. I'm searching for one area of privatization that has worked. I can't find any.

 

And you talk about these guys supporting standard GOP policies. Max no one voted for Peter Roskam to get rid of the SALT and limit property tax deductions. I can confirm many people in his district including many republicans calling and complaining when this went on. So why didn't he listen? The same happened in New Jersey, NY, California. THey could have all FOUGHT to keep these deductions in place for their voters so why didn't they?  That led me to the point that Paul Ryan is to blame not Trump.

 

As for Medicare for all, the Koch funded study also showed non governmental healthcare would cost even more than the billions cited from the article you referenced over the next 10 years.  Taxes go up? How many employers do you think would be more than willing to put more into the social security tax if it frees them from having to provide healthcare themselves.  It also frees employees who are no longer required to be indebted to an employer due to healthcare. And it also allows us to be equally competitive with international businesses, since most countries provide gvmt healthcare.

 

As for trickle down, this economic failure has been tried many times over the past 100 plus years, and where and when has it succeeded? Kansas cut taxes to bare bones under Brownbeck, road and schools crumbling to the point where the voters finally demanded new legislators who actually increased taxes and overrode Brownbeck's veto.

 

If you want to point to the Clinton's, the economy was booming then partially due to tax increases Bush put in place and the tech boom fueled a good part of that. But as to where we are today, I believe Neoliberalism has led to where we are and where the world is today. It's led to massive wealth inequality across the liberal democratic world and the rise of nationalism is a reaction to this. Add in corruption as what happened in Brazil as well. We are seeing wages increase a tad, but it doesn't account for increased costs in gasoline, healthcare, mortgage rates, etc.. And it has done nothing to improve the wage gap, it's only gotten larger. The Oligarchs want us peasants fighting over scraps so they can continue to rape and pillage our tax dollars for themselves. Their taxcuts go no where except back into their own pockets. The only way taxcuts work is by giving them to the middle class who spends the extra money they have, fueling our consumer driven economy.

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Have these kids graduated?  If not, then I wish the administration would expel each and every one of them.

 

Also, I want someone who knows these punks to identify each and every one on social media.  If you're proud enough to throw up a Nazi salute, then you're proud enough to have the whole damn internet know exactly who you are.

Edited by Khan
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3 minutes ago, Khan said:

Have these kids graduated?  If not, then I wish the administration would expel each and every one of them.

They do deserve to be punished in some way, but the adults in this country have seriously let them down.  They live in a country where the actual leader has encouraged white nationalism and calls himself a nationalist.  We have teachers wearing "wall" costumes.  Then we punish young people for responding to this toxic environment.  I see people saying this should follow them for the rest of their lives and they should never get into college. Ok, but this nation gave the most important job in the country to a white nationalist. I feel like I'm living in bizzaro world sometimes.

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