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@JaneAusten I think the first place we miscommunication is on the definition of "hard work".  When I use that term I mean it literally.  I'm of a mind that everyone who works at McDonald's or on a road crew are working harder than I do. I recognize that some people use that term to mean going to college and climbing the economic ladder, which I did do with a lot of luck (and no doubt a side of white privilege) on my side. 

 

The second place would be where you said "If Americans aren't lazy..." without a qualifier.  You didn't say all, but that is implied when you don't use the qualifier "some", at which point doesn't labeling Americans in that way become kind of pointless? Find me a society that doesn't have it's share of lazy people. I'll also completely agree with you that there are plenty of entitled white people out there.

 

I guess one difference I have with many of the people on this board is that the lens I view the world through is primarily economic.  I haven't been poor for nearly 25 years, but I will never lose that class identity.  In fact, the people I like least in this world are people who grew up poor made it out and then congratulate themselves on their hard work, while blaming everyone else for not doing better.  As if luck and innate ability didn't play a huge part.

Edited by Juliajms
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Let's be clear on something, the vast majority of immigrants both legal and undocumented, give a whole lot more than they get. 

I don't know whether anyone here on this board personally knows undocumented people but I do and I'll give you an example of my point.

When my mother used to be a landlord and rented out apartments, she had a family who had a few members who were undocumented for a time.  Each member worked very hard, even the kids who went to school and held jobs and saved money and were eventually able to open their own business. They were never late on rent.  They weren't leasing property out from under anyone, the space had sat available for several months (probably at least a year). They became reasonably success (nowhere near rich) eventually were able to employ one or two employees who were not family and eventually were able to buy their own home. The children graduated, married have their own lives.

 

This is not to insult anyone but of all the tenants that my Mother had during her years as a landlord, the tenants she had the least amount of trouble with? Immigrants by far. The tenants that she had to evict? All U.S. citizens by birth. The final eviction was so much money lost that it convinced her to sell the property and just focus on getting a single family house.

 

My Mother, an immigrant herself, does have a tilted view of America because of this. I've tried to convince her not to paint Americans with a broad brush but when you are reminded with Confederate statues of this country's reliance on slave labor and exploitation to build its wealth, it becomes increasingly hard to convince someone who has been exploited that it is any other way. 

 

Perception really does matter and the U.S. is cast in an extremely negative light now in many people's eyes.

 

 

*Also, in terms of who waits in line and who exploits immigration loopholes, the other day, I posted an article about Ukrainian migrants who are getting in claiming to be refugees, who by their own admission are not in danger but are here for economic reasons but because of an age old Soviet-era rule that allows Eastern European Christians to migrate to the U.S. as refugees.

The Ukrainian refugees' waiting period and vetting period is, on average, about a year or more shorter than Syrian and Iraqi refugees who can wait up to four years of vetting before they are allowed to migrate to the U.S.

I don't blame the Ukrainian refugees for wanting to come but even they are aware that they are exploiting a loophole in U.S. immigration policy.

Why isn't this a talking point in the news media?  I suspect, it's because they are not brown.

Edited by DramatistDreamer
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Some do, some don't just like people who were born here.  Does it matter in the case of Dreamers? Would it really be ok to kick them out if they weren't contributing more than they take?  I keep seeing people on CNN making these elaborate arguments about why they should get to stay.  76% of the American people think that they shouldn't just get to stay, but that they should get to be citizens.  The problem isn't the people it's 45 and Congress.

 

I'm certainly not arguing against them. If I were in charge I would give them amnesty. Nothing else begins to make sense.  I am arguing against the notion that Americans by and large are lazy, incurious and think immigrants are stealing their jobs. It's just not true, most Americans are by and large pro immigration (and a pretty big chunk of Americans are immigrants for that matter). Most people even think that the parents of the Dreamers should be given a path to citizenship.  The small number of people against legal immigration are outliers. Poll after poll shows all of those things to be true. 

 

Your mother's truths and experiences are her own, I wouldn't presume to argue on that front.  I'm not even feeling particularly optimistic about the US right now on the whole. I just don't think lack of work ethic is our problem, so much as the incredible income equality gap we're facing.  Meanwhile, the Republicans are working on making that even worse.

 

 

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A utter lack of a complete education and proper civic engagement is the biggest problem, IMO.  I'm continually disappointed by people who wave the flag but don't truly know U.S. history, let alone world history. People who scream about China, yet cannot find it on a map. People who believe Africa is a country.

 

What people say and how people vote often contradict themselves. We found that out in this election. 

 

I'm not sure how trustworthy polls are, TBH. On a phone poll, people will say what they think sounds good but the votes that they make in their state elections reflect their true desires.

This is one reason that I really don't take people's words as genuine anymore. When you live in a world where the president of the United States' words no longer hold any value, how are you supposed to regard the value of anyone's word?

 

 

 

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Very well said.  My hubby and I recently bought my childhood home in rural part of North FL and it needs extensive renovations.  Of all the contractors we have worked with, the immigrants are - by far - the hardest working of the bunch.  And they don't bitch and complain - some of them are actually singing while they bust their ass!  The worst contractors?  White guys.  They are notoriously late, complain quite a bit and seem to always take longer to get the job done.  Mind you, this is purely my experience on this particular project. 

 

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You have Al Roker out here trying to convince people to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, who apparently has decided to use his radio show to claim that Hurricane Irma is hype and only affecting areas where Latinos live anyway.

Meanwhile, we have yet to hear definitively from anyone on the island of Barbuda since the eye of Irma passed over the entire tiny island yet the media skips over this because Barbuda is not Florida.

 

In what world has this vile behavior become acceptable?  I can hardly stand it!

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An article about hookworm making a comeback in Alabama, due to extreme poverty.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/05/hookworm-lowndes-county-alabama-water-waste-treatment-poverty

 

Limbaugh was one of the main people who first made it mainstream, so it's full circle. 

 

As Khan says, I have no pity for anyone who listens to him. 

 

These are desperate acts of an increasing irrelevance. 

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