Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[EricMontreal22]

he co wrote with Millee Taggert (who had co written with Tom King the show in the late 90s) and I loved it at the time--but I give Taggert most credit. I also loved when Addie Walsh wrote--under both the original university setting was prominent again and the show really felt like 1970s old school AMC before all the Big Bussiness' had moved in. Of course after Addie, Agnes Nixon returned for most of 1994 and that year was almost all fantastic (even with a few crazy stories she did like "Curtis/pet" being locke din a cage by Dante etc).

dc is right with what is said about the probs with the short writing and producer terms in the 90s (well throughout the show's history really) but at the time I admit I loved most of it. So my memories are diff.

I have some Loving (mainly the murders) and every episode of the last four months of The City (when it really found its footing--funny at the time it had already been canceled yet was the only ABC soap to see its ratings steadily RISE) on video and have always planned to digitize them and put them all up on youtube--I need to get my act together

[Sapounopera]

So sad to read that Roya Megnot has passed away I loved her as Ava and always felt that she should be on another soap after her very successful Loving stint. She was briefly on B&B as Iman, during Ridge and Brooke's 1994 (?) wedding.

[SFK]

Oh my Lord! I am SO sorry to hear that! Such memories of watching her as a little kid in the '80s. Bless her family, may she rest in peace... always hoped to see her again on the screen.

[dc11786]

Faison was like July 1993. Jeremy moved to Corinth in November 1992 and worked with romanced Stacey until about May when Hannah pulled the sexual harassment stunt. Around the same time, Shana was pregnant with Leo's baby and Ava was faking a pregnancy because she wanted to keep Leo. Jeremy called her out on her sh&*^& and they became a couple. In July 1993, Jeremy and Ava went to Florida and Universal Studios. They had something Faison wanted or something like that. Jeremy and Ava didn't work storywise, but supposedly Peluso and LeClerc supposedly had chemistry which is why the show did the Gilbert stuff (man Agnes Nixon can pen some awful stuff sometimes). Anyway, Ava was targeted by an arsonist in September 1993 which brought her ex-husband Alex back to town and Jeremy and Ava were kaput by Christmas. He saw Gwyn next, which was a well done relationship.

Addie Walsh and Fran Sears were behind the college revamp plans, but they really didn't get to execute much. The revamp began around April/May 1992 after several months of research had been done and a huge casting call had been done. None of it really worked out though. Fran Sears was gone within six weeks of the material beginning to air and Walsh may have been around for two months of it. Haidee Granger supposedly acted as defacto headwriter for the first few months of her run as executive producer. The summer was very uneven. Stories and characters came and went without rhyme or reason.

Taggert and Guza stablized the show, but I wouldn't say there stories were all that great. The Curtis/Tess/Buck triangle seems like a vortex of sh&^*. Does anyone even remember Trucker's loser father coming to town pretending he was dying? Guza and Taggert won an award (the Writer's Guild) but I really don't think it was for the overall show. They lucked out inheriting a decent younger set, Cooper, Ally, and Casey, and ditching the loser, Hannah, for a winner, Stephanie.

Nixon's return material was good considering the mess she inherited from Taggert. There were certainly some clunkers (Dante in general and Gilbert), but most of the material was pretty good. Too bad her solo run post-Marland wasn't as strong.

[DRW50]

Thanks for all this info. I never knew Agnes came back to the show. I still wonder what could have been if they'd given the show a little more time, the cast and the stories were finally gelling.

Was Hannah the Rebecca Gayheart character?

Sad to hear about Roya Megnot.

Why do you think Doug Marland left the show? What part of the show was his influence? The Donovans? Did you miss them when they were phased out?

[dc11786]

Unfortunately, most of what I know is from the reading and the things posted online over the years. I've read the soap column by Jon Michael Reed, which was very engaging. Lynda Hirsch's is good, too, but you could tell what stories Reed was engaging in. Unfortunately, he passed away in the mid-1980s. His replacement (who's name I'm blanking on at the moment, Selig? something) was pretty good, but Reed's synopses were wonderful.

Earlier, I had read most of the postings from RATS about "Loving" from 1992 through the end. It's funny to read the longterm fans reactions to the plots as they went on. Most tolerated a lot of poor stories with hope until Brown and Essensten came on, and maybe the tailend of Walsh & McCarthy material. The plans for "The City" certainly alienated long time fans, but then again wasn't that the point?

Hannah was Rebecca Gayheart's character. Hannah just didn't seem to work. It was hard to justify Hannah and Cooper as end game when Ally had been with the show long and had the makings of a typical Rescott woman, well intention but often making horrible choices. Stephanie worked because she was willing to play at Ally's level, but there was a vulernability there. It's funny, there are clips up on youtube of Paul Anthony Stewart's work from the beginning until he married Ally (during Nixon's last stand). Stewart and Heinle worked well off one another, as did Heinle and Weatherly, Weatherly and Wright, and Wright and Stewart. After seeing the clips, I can understand why some of the shoddy storytelling worked. The chemistry among the cast worked. Randolph Mantooth worked well with Peluso, but had wonderful parental chemistry with Dabney and Rowland in the scenes I've caught. Also, there was some wonderful sexual tension in the scenes with Tudor Newman and Partalo. If Partalo hadn't gotten the role on such shaky grounds, I wonder if the audience would have accepted him as Roger? Clay was a bit similar.

Marland left at the end of his two year contract. He simply said it was time to move on and I don't think he had the job at "As the World Turns" yet when he announced his plans to leave. Personally, he was probably frustrated. The show was constantly turning over cast and story directions were taking such drastic turns. Couples were built up only for actors to be recast or fired. By the time Marland had left, the show was really in its third incarnation, and probably it's strongest and most Marland-esque. Marland left the show in such good shape, it's a shame to see all the stories change so quickly.

In the final months, the show came to a head with a takeover plotline. Dane Hammond, a disgruntled former employee and biological father of Alden scion Jack Forbes, plotted along with Linc Beecham to take over Alden Enterprises. The story was set to affect most of the characters on the canvas. Lovers Shana Sloane and Mike Donovan were on different sides of a labor dispute which would likely send Shana back into Jim's arms. Lorna was pursuing a modelling career and gave her shares of stock in order for Dane's clout. Dane and Ann had married causing a rift in the family, while Clay was presumed dead after a boating accident. Gwyneth alligned herself with Dane in order to get power at Amourelle, the cosmetics company, which would cause trouble for Keith Lane, a chemist who was once Gwyneth's lover. Keith was falling for Colby Cantrell, Curtis' latest squeeze who worked for Burnell's. Colby's recently divorced aunt Rita Mae ended up with much younger man Tony Perilli when he ended his engagement to Stacey. Stacey pined while Jack had married Ava because she was pregnant. When Ava later lost the baby, Dane gave her the money to buy her sister Sheri's baby (who gave up the baby for money so her daughter Patty could get a hip operation). Jim Vochek was involved in the young romance of Trisha Alden and Steve Sowlowsky. Harry had tormented his love Shana, but Jim took an interest in Steve. Also, Lorna romanced Linc, who was alligned with Dane. It was all about loyalty, plotting, and scheming. Tight storytelling with interesting characters, even if most of them were new.

[EricMontreal22]

Again I was 12-14 so as an adult I prob wouldn't agree maybe but at the time I LOVED all the Dante stuff even if it was cut short because of the race controversy (Dante being a middle east character or something). I also loved all the yougn set at the time--I even remember kinda liking Trucker's loser father comign to town (Trucker has got to be one of the most handsome--in a totally cliche romance novel way--soap characters I know even if he wasn't a great actor--I guess it's not a big shock he seems to have done NOTHING post Loving but him and Trisha were a fave of mine)

I also really liekd Hannah especially with Cooper. Oh well (I have none of this saved so can't really reinvestigate)

However I think you're dead on that a lot of the storytelling was made up for by the actors and the chemisty of the actors (it was too bad the cast of Loving got next to no credit as they were usually quite strong it seems to me) The day to day dialogue also seemed pretty strong

Gilbert, Jeremy's evil twin, was Agnes? it's always funny to me when agnes does such cliche soap storylines but of course a part of her seems to enjoy some of the more over the top stuff (she did the 80s Loving story with the villain who turned into a snake and was implied to have ties to Satan or whatever).

Was Egypt and Alex under Nixon? Egypt seemed to be such a revamp of the old original Lyman Opal on AMC--but I did love her.

(I posted on RATS when City happened--still as a teenager and I remember the general consensus was the last 6 months were very good--jsut as the show was getting canceled). It's funny Agnes Nixon was given co creator credit on City and listed as creative consultant yet in that youtube LONG TV archive interview with her she seems to say she had ZERO connection to the city and was surprised by the question lol.

Loving did have a weird beginning--originally it was a creation between Agnes and novelist Dan Wakefield (who wrote the awesome All Her Children and was a huge fan--also did the teen drama in the 70s James at 15, apparantly a huge influence on Dawson's Creek) with co creation credit but they seemd to have different views or something as by the time it started Marland was HW and had co creator credit (even if the basic setup was very much 1970s AMC with a bit of Marland influence in the Donovan family). I've seen two eps from during hisrun as well as the pilot movie (which was a tv movie and had actors and character snot in the show--oddly) and I found it very strong--jsut as day to day soap anyway. What confuse sme is why Marland's name was removed from create dby when he left--Agnes Nixon has always it seems had great things to say about him so I don't think it was a fight.

Much of the problems stems from ABC I think whow anted higher ratings faster (typical). They also squashed some of their key stories--there was to be a TV first in an incest abuse storyline which at the last minute was dropped I believe because ABC wanted to have their upcomign tv movie get to be advertised as the first time TV had dealt with the issue...

I still think that Brown/Esensten for the most part did a good job with the final year, and did a great job with The City once it found its placing (it was idiotic to, after the Loving Murders, suddenly jump into a similar serial killer story on the new show)

[MarkH]

I don't think Trucker was gay. I'm 99% sure he married one of the Dinah Lees in real life.

[SFK]

Yeah, the Marland credit thing is weird, I assume it was an ABC/P&G issue. Agnes Nixon is huge enough of a name in the business, perhaps P&G didn't want "their" Marland of the brilliant ATWT era luring any viewers over to ABC at 12:30 with his name? Who knows, but I'm willing to bet that money was exchanged some way some how to get his name off those credits.

Yes indeed, Egypt was very Opal, just as Ava and Kate were Erica and Mona etc. Poor Loving, SUCH potential, I'm reminded of stories of Lemay's For Richer, For Poorer, or even The Colbys... I wish Nixon could have been even more hands on.

I agree that it was strange to start a soap with a movie pilot starring two big names that wouldn't go on to appear in the show. Had Geraldine Page been a regular on Loving, I'd be busy hunting down eps this very second. She was a brilliant actress, she would have done so much for soaps and soap acting.

[dc11786]

Nixon wrote from November 1993 until the summer of 1994.

I think Nixon was fairly hands on. She co-wrote the first two years with Marland and then succeeded him solely as headwriter. Anyone know how long? I don't think her vision for "Loving" worked to be honest. The stories were terribly weak. The fact that soap books overlook Cyd Quilling's run as Dolly Jones is fairly notable considering the character dominated the 1985-1986 season. Having a former prostitute learn the child she gave up for adoption was the star of kiddie porn certainly wasn't going to bring in the viewers. Similarly, the complex, corporate storyline involving the takeover of Alden Enterprises floundered under Nixon instead focusing on her favorite storyline: Jonathan returning from the dead to taunt all those invovled with him. After Marland left, the work became less intricate and story threads stopped spinning.

Ava was certainly a social climber under Nixon, but she definitely had Marland's mark on her. Ava worked on a construction site for goodness sakes. Could you imagine Erica doing that?

I suspect Nixon consulted in the 1992 college revamp. Considering Nixon rewrote the abuse storyline later on as well as the inclusion of Dr. Ron Turner, who appeared on "Loving" in 1983 in Lily's storyline, makes me believe Nixon may have suggested the Coop storyline. Plus, Hannah was the typical Nixonian heroine. Also, Ava was suddenly working for Burnell's, a company that the Aldens owned in the 1980s, and a mysterious boss was watching over Ava. I think it was clear Curtis was set to return to woo Ava. Instead, we got Leo Burnell, Ava's high school love who founded Burnell's.

To be honest, the biggest problem for "Loving" post-college revamp was no writer, producer, story, or character stayed long enough to give the show vision. Nixon was working on giving the show a vision, and I think she was grooming Walsh and McCarthy to take over. Unfortunately, I think they made MAJOR mistakes. Nixing the brilliant Cradle Foundation storyline, recasting Dinah Lee when she should have been killed off, offing Elise Neal's Janie Sinclair (the African American Erica Kane), not utilizing the veterans, and focusing on the Gilbert/Jeremy saga. The only McCarthy/Walsh story I liked was Who Ran Down Clay Alden?

I just thought Hannah was too vanilla. Gayheart didn't have the zest required for an actress to play a heroine of her breed. Hannah lacked the personality needed to bring the character to life. I felt like Heinle's Stephanie was always trying to overcome personal demons. Her Stephanie lacked self confidence, but she wanted to be a better person. She was more gray than Hannah, which worked for egotistical Cooper.

The Gilbert storyline and the Jonathan Maitland storyline were similar. In both stories, Gwyn Alden slept with a man who she believed was her lover. Gwyn had to be the dumbest woman in the world. She slept with Gilbert thinking he was Jeremy, Jonathan thinking he was Keith, and Alex thinking he was Clay. Both stories had one brother taking over their brother's life. Each tortured the show's heroine of the moment (Gilbert/Ava and Jonathan/Lorna). Nixon only wrote a little of the Gilbert story. I suspect Marland probably approved of the second round of Jonathan Maitland as he too had a gothic flair at times.

I believe Ralph Ellis introduced Egypt, but Nixon may have had a hand in it.

This is purely speculation, but I suspect the show's opening months was Wakefield's original vision for the show. The show was more Lemay than either Nixon or Marland. The show was more character vignettes rather than the complex plotting of Marland or the colorful characters of Nixon. This would explain why the Merrill Vochek/Roger Forbes love affair was quickly dropped. The political nature of the story was very different from the writing of Nixon and Marland. Also, it would explain why the Lily Slater storyline was quickly dropped without much drama behind the scenes.

I think Marland was given more free reign with the revisions. Once the Lily and Roger/Merrill storylines were dropped, the main storyline was the Edy Lester/Jonathan Maitland mystery which took up most of 1984. This mystery was typical Marland, complex murder mystery, but I think the problem was it went nowhere. There was no fallout from this story. While I suspect Shana and Jim were suppose to be the main couple, Jack and Stacey emerged as the leads because they had been there since the beginning.

To be honest, I don't think Marland and Nixon was a match named in heaven. They were two very different people stylistically and both had a lot of clout. I suspect this is why Wakefield and Nixon also parted ways. Collaboration isn't easy and I suspect they simply didn't agree on very much, but both respected what they gave the genre. When Marland left, Nixon took the stories in a completely different direction. Maybe Marland asked for the creator credit to be removed because he didn't feel it was fair to take credit for something he wasn't that involved in. Unfortunately, we will probably never really know the truth because both are (were) too decent to discuss why things didn't work out. The fact that neither have said much about it speaks volumes though.

[EricMontreal22]

I'm utterly confused are you replying to one of my confusing rambles above? Cuz yeah I think he married the "main" Dinah Lee (the one who was on... Dirty Sexy Money? Some show recently) in real life and never ever meant to imply he was gay.

[EricMontreal22]

dc I find your thoughts on this fascinating--i know some of it is speculation but I expect you're more right than wrong. I do think many fot he changes in direction early on were because of pressure to make the show a hit--Agnes as wonderful as she is isn't beneath feelign that pressure and changing things due to it or giving in to some network interference. However I think her period right after Marland left was fairly brief--but I cna't be sure but it seems her name was out of the writing credits fairly soon. Still I think under her the show was better than not (I agree with her second tenure later dropping the Cradle foudnation story when she left was a mistake0> i think you're right that stories, actors, characters, everything had too quick turnaround but again this was probably partly due to ABC getting upset that ratings remained so low. And yeah I think Agnes playe d apart with the Coop story etc (which started off SOO strong and then was sorta ditched... the story of Loving's life sadly)

Of course much like AMC until the mid/late 90s I have no doubt Agnes kept SOME contact with Loving throughout its time (unlike One Life which she seemed to leave pretty much completely when she helped Russell replace her)

And your views on Wakefields influence are pretty astute (and I think you're right with all these collaborators they just found working together hard--there doesn't seem to be any respect lost between them). However I do see a LOT of very early AMC (which, Phoebe aside for the first coupel of eyars wasn't quite as "colourful character" based as it became) in the first two years of Loving.

"Having a former prostitute learn the child she gave up for adoption was the star of kiddie porn certainly wasn't going to bring in the viewers"

I have NEVER even heard of this story before! lol what year? What happened? sounds like it owulda been kinda shocking--Agnes liked to deal with issues but it is a bit exploitive too.

[MarkH]

Jessica Collins, right?

Yeah, I can't recall now...but I think someone upfront said Trucker (the actor) either was or looked gay.

[EricMontreal22]

yep! I guess he looked like a gay porn star but

[dc11786]

It's entirely possible that Nixon was under pressure, yet supposedly she still had enough clout to get the timeslot shifted. The year-to-year ratings early on showed "Loving" gaining momentum despite the constant turnover. Maybe ABC wanted bigger gains, but I'm not sure the cast instability was anything more than a poor foundation. I feel like Marland got more sway in 1984, and there were some rough waters because he was now inheriting a show with mainly Nixon themes and archtypes. As a result, I think Marland floundered, just as Nixon did when she inherited the show back again. Again, it all seems to go back to the collaborative thing. When I think of the stories of Paul Avila Mayer and Claire Labine having shouting matches about character, I just cannot see that with Nixon and Marland. Labine & Mayer basically started as a writing team whereas Nixon and Marlands were proteges who made names for themselves.

I may be harsh on Nixon's 1985 stint, and I suspect the stories probably played out better on a day to day basis, but I will still maintain the show lost something when Marland was gone. I think the direction was stronger when he left. He made throwaway pairings (Tony and Rita Mae come to mind) work. Nixon deemphasized the corporate aspect even though the show really had built a pretty stable foundation around that during Marland's final months. To be fair though, Nixon isn't really a corporate stories type writer, which is probably why we got stuff like Rebeka Beecham using a deranged Zona to come between Linc and Lorna instead of using the emotional fallout of the Linc's betrayal from participating in the hostile takeover of Alden Enterprises. It's probably. Also, I feel like Nixon writes character in terms of black and white, and when someone does something bad they have to be punished for it. I think Marland's characters were a little more human at times with shades of gray. For example, Marland's Lorna was selfish, as she truly wanted to be loved, and as a result didn't really destructive things to maintain emotional happiness. Nixon's Lorna was more a peril of pauline type dealing with psychos like her ex Jonathan Maitland, Linc's wife Zona, and possibly Jane Kincaid if Nixon was still headwriter during that story.

I'd consider characters like Nick Davis, Amy Tyler, and even Erica Kane rather colorful for daytime. I'd say "Loving" was more early "One Life to Live" with the Vochek family similar to the Woleks, the Lily plotline, and even the Merrill/Roger having a bit of darker Viki/Joe edge to them.

Dolly Jones appeared from 1985 until 1986. Bad, bad stories ensued. Dolly was a former prostitute who found an amnesiac Keith Lane after his identical OLDER brother Jonathan Maitlaine returned from the dead. Dolly fell in love with "Bill"/Keith and when the truth about his identity came out they set up house together. Soon Dolly found work as Gwyn's assistant and she was tormented by wealthy playboy Hunt Belden, who knew her when she was a prostitute. Hunt claimed to know where her illegitimate daughter was, the one sired by her pimp Carl. Dolly was desperate and slept with Hunt while she was involved with Keith. To torture Dolly, Hunt claimed her daughter had been sold to child pornographers and was now starring in their films. Dolly and Keith married while Hunt strung her along. Eventually, there was a shoot out and Carl and Hunt were killed. Dolly learned her daughter hadn't been given to child pornographers and met with Jennifer, the adoptive mother, about seeing Dee, Dolly's daughter. Jennifer agreed and Dolyl saw Dee only for Dolly and Keith to leave town in July 1986.