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Posts posted by EricMontreal22

  1. On 9/15/2020 at 3:13 PM, Soaplovers said:

    the 1st 2 episodes of Loving didn't have Marland's trademark stilted dialogue.  It actually flowed and there was some energy on the show as well.


    I wonder if Nixon had a hand in micro managing the scripts and that's why it didn't have Marland's usual flaws in his day to day episodes?

    She absolutely did during that early period.  Patrick Mulcahey said in one interview that he left the Loving writing team after a year (I believe) because every script he'd get would have tons of notes, not from Marland but from Nixon (and I've seen scripts of other shows with her notes--like early AMC scripts--she is very clear).  He noted that that's a valid approach, but not one he can work under.

    On 9/11/2020 at 5:33 PM, DRW50 said:

    @victoria foxton @dc11786 @Elsa @SFK @Vee @DeliaIrisFan @Paul Raven @slick jones (sorry to anyone I didn't get) Not sure if these have already been around but someone has uploaded the first two episodes...and holy hell, the first episode has a lengthy introduction by Dorothy Lyman! I had never heard about that.



    My friend who posted them said he only recently got them transferred digitally.  Sadly, this is all he has (for now).

    The Dorothy Lyman intro BTW actually aired AFTER the Loving movie the night before--not as an introduction to the daytime premier. 

    On 9/13/2020 at 6:46 PM, dc11786 said:

    As @EricMontreal22 mentioned, the characters were all in Agnes Nixon's original bible for the show. It is clear which characters Marland was more interested in writing. The Donovans are much more intricate and their scenes are much richer than the scenes with the other characters.




    A great summation--I think you've studied the bible closer than I have and I was the one who scanned it!  LOL  Thanks for that.

    As for Lily's return in 1987.  Someone (Schemering?) pointed out what an awful return it was--and some of those episodes (a rather dull, non-descript era for the show) are online.  She basically became a bland, blonde, husband stealing, vixen with little nuance.

  2. The Carter Jones storyline on AMC (kidnapping Natalie on a houseboat) was inspired by Cape Fear I believe (I think the remake had recently been released)--that story was quite involved and may have been inspired by other works as well.  Was it Guiding Light that had a Psycho/Dressed to Kill cross dressing killer (I won't call them trans). 

    22 hours ago, AbcNbc247 said:

    So they turned AMC into Sex and the City and GH into The Sopranos.


    What did they try to turn OLTL into?

    Ha yes Frons would name drop SatC when mentioning Fusion and AMC.  Funny, he never applied a similar identity to poor/lucky OLTL.

    19 hours ago, Dylan said:

    I think UK viewers would. Their soaps are still about middle class regular people.

    In general working class, so even a bit lower than what I'd call middle class.  It's funny, in a country where class is such a big deal (although N Americans also suffer from this, we just like to pretend otherwise) the UK soaps rarely take advantage of the conflicts between people of lower classes.  I remember hearing the producer of the long running BBC radio soap The Archers pointing out they're the only major UK soap that does do this.

    Has any soap ripped off Rebecca?  I mean AMC had elements of it with Helga before we knew that Angelique was actually alive.

  3. 3 hours ago, victoria foxton said:

    I think this might still be Rauch. At least the very end of his EP run. Doesn't feel like Gottlieb/Malone era OLTL.

    Remember there were a few months where Gottlieb had taken over by Craig Carlson (?) was still HW, and the transition at any rate didn't feel immediate.  (and of course the initial plan was to put some of the focus on short term story arcs--one involved that guy from Body Double as an abusive husband--though they quickly realized that went against the point of a soap.


  4. 3 hours ago, Khan said:


    Well, I know I wasn't the FIRST one to suggest this pairing, but I did agree that the two complimented each other; and I still think that to be the case.  (That is, if Douglas Marland was ever open to collaboration on that level, which I doubt, lol.)



    Ha, if he ever was open to it, surely his time at Loving changed all that...  (As the pre-Marland bible makes clear, as well as Nixon's notes during the first year, Agnes Nixon was extremely involved in the overall plotting and somehow I doubt that even if it had been a monster hit in its first year, Marland would have happily stuck around


  5. 12 minutes ago, Vee said:


    I don't know how anyone can watch some of that '86 stuff with Holden and Lily, the stables, the horses and the storm and not know this is a gay man enraptured with one of several very specific types of men and ingenues he revisited again and again.

    Oh undeniably.  Certainly it's a different vibe than say when Bill Bell would write his scenes for studs...

  6. 1 hour ago, Vee said:

    (And Doug Cummings, played by his longtme favorite JWS, is basically a deranged theater queen) If you go by the scuttlebutt you can project that Marland was infatuated with the men and embodied in many of the women, like Iva or Lily. But I suppose that's reductive stereotyping too.

    You make him sound like Tennessee Williams!  ;) I always thought the Doug Cummings story was based on The Fan (a terrible movie, but...)

  7. That's a trip with Phoebe visiting...  I remember Myrtle showing up to I think Dinah Lee's wedding (this was after hannah and her had stayed with Myrtle on AMC), but not Phoebe.  I love details like this that reinforce the shared universe (even if it's odd that Loving and later The City characters watch AMC...) especially since I can't imagine it was done in this case to try to bring over AMC viewers...

  8. I remember the primetime OLTL had that film look (that The City used and AMC used on and off--didn't Sunset Beach at first as well?) which I hated.  And that it was particularly dreary and surely wouldn't gain new viewers.  Was that the same time that Bo was boating around with the corpse of Drew??  For some reason I have it connected in my head...

  9. On 6/1/2020 at 10:34 AM, Khan said:




    Moreover, just like with Roscoe Born/Jim Thomasen, the Eliot/Brooke storyline cost AMC a really decent actor (David Beecroft) who could have been valuable to the show in the years to come.



    Honestly, the only thing I remember from Elizabeth Page's brief HW'ing tenure was a BTS story about how she (allegedly) hit Agnes Nixon over the head with a rolled-up script or something.  Like, who DOES that?


    Agreed about Beecroft--he also had good chemisgtry with Brooke (maybe some exec saw that and pushed for it to be more romantic). 

    And wha??  I wanna hear more about this bomping Agnes story!  Maybe that's why she was gone so quickly lol

    Just now, DRW50 said:


    I think it was summer 1999 as this was when they started shoving Greenlee down our throats, along with the Becca/Scott love story.

    Pretty sure Becca/Scott was Agnes at leas in concept (Greenlee too).  As I've said before it felt like she was trying to bring back one of her initial young love stories--Becca being very much in the Tara model--but it just wasn't working (and maybe never would have worked around 2000)

  10. On 6/1/2020 at 6:46 AM, DRW50 said:


    Sorry - I meant the writer. Was it Elizabeth Page? I wondered if it was her or Passanante who was responsible for making the show so unwatchable for me around 1999. I know Agnes wasn't perfect but there was just something about that period (the Dixie stuff, the nonsense with ending the Adam artificial insemination storyline with him getting a pie in the face on TV, how intensely plot-driven the show felt, unbearable Mateo pouring his alcoholic wife a drink [and we were meant to support him], etc.) I found intolerable.

    Was that all in the last half of 1999?  I have been intrigued by Elizabeth Page--she was initially listed as Agnes' co-HW, but pretty quickly it was her and Passanante as her co-HWers and then just Passanante as co-HW (and eventually HW which is when the [!@#$%^&*] hit the fan--stuff like "dog boy", the ghosts taking over PV and of course Passanante apparently broke her contract to quit early--why?--and moved to ATWT leaving AMC without a credited HW for two months).

  11. 1 hour ago, ghfan89 said:

    He was upfront about it in his WLS interview. He said it was because Megan McTavish got promoted, and she drove him away in the early 90's. He went and took a writing job on GL for a bit along with Lorraine Broderick.

    That's a fantastic interview.  He said he did not like working with her, but also implied he was ready to leave.  Broderick gave him the job at GL (I think he claimed he didn't remember writing a thing) because he needed less than a year more work to get full benefits or a full pension or something from the WGA, and Broderick basically gave him the job as a kind gesture.

    2 hours ago, Pine Charles said:

    That is meant as a compliment, actually.

    AMC was always the most REAL - and “real” is now..... even though reality shows (namely Real Housewives) couldn’t be more fake.


    Am I making any sense?? LOL


    The cattiness at the dinner party/in the powder room, a drunk (usually Phoebe) causing a scene at a public event, the delusional diva/business mogul (Erica)..... it’s totally The Real Housewives..... I prefer the Pine Valley (played by actors) version, of course.


    I hope that made sense.
    I’m really tired.


    I believe in one of his books, Cohen said he envisioned those shows as Pine Valley.

    I'm sure he did ;) That does make sense though.  I guess my issue with the Real Housewives is the very little I've watched never give me a sense of families made up of generations, families at all really (despite appearances by some family members), a diversity in tone, etc.  But I do get ya ;)

  12. 34 minutes ago, ghfan89 said:

    Wasn't Ryan Kit accused of rape? I think it happened around Halloween of that year. McTavish seemed to have a thing for women calling fake rape. She had done it years early with SMG Kendall trying to say Dimitri raped her.


    Yes, and it turned out it was Braden, of course, Ryan's handsome older brother (another terrible new actor).  Who of course memorably later would be a mummified corpse in Jonathan's hideaway. 


    34 minutes ago, ghfan89 said:


    Broderick had some out there stories too -- the hypnotist Dr Lazzare in the late 80's then that Voodoo stuff in Jamacia in the 90's -- but she did balance it with more real stuff like Michael Delaney and the Cindy AIDS story. I do think she wrote with more depth than McTavish. Mctavish was a bit more of a gimmick writer, but the show wasn't as depressing as it was under Broderick at times. A lot of times under McTavish I didn't understand character motivation, she had a gimmick or idea and would fit the characters to it, it seemed like, where as Lorraine was more of a character writer, go into their fears and desires, and wrote from that. Overall I preferred Broderick, but both had their good points and bad points. 

    Good point.  By the end of AMC Broderick really did seem the only one (aside from Agnes Nixon, which wouldn't happen) who could save it, but it's easy to have blinders about all the errors in her runs--and her 90s run is a fave of mine (and yet, aside from Jamaica Voodoo, a story partly done to appease ABC I have it on good authority, to compete with DAYS at the time--and in a sort of give and take situation where such stories would allow them to get approval for controversial more realistic stories like continuing to tell Kevin's story).  She also wrote the horrible Tanner Jones story.  But I do think your take on the strengths of both writers at AMC is spot on.

    Just now, Pine Charles said:

    The Voodoo/Jamaica plot was apparently mandated by ABC (and wasn’t Broderick’s idea). 
    I believe it was done to compete w/ the lowbrow (yet ratings’ successful) stories happening on DOOL at the time.

    Yes, this was what a writer told me.  He also, though, said that their goal with AMC, more than some other soaps, was always to try to have a wild mix of different types of stories and he felt they were trying that in this case (and to be fair, that *was* what AMC had a rep for whenever I read 70s and 80s reviews where it's either praised or criticized for, more than other soaps, completely running the gamut of types of stories, often in the same episode). 

  13. 1 hour ago, Darn said:

    A redemption arc is fine, building him up as a potential love interest is the real problem.

    Oh, I agree.  In fact I think it could have been a fine story if they just felt a deep friendship or even (though I know Elliot would have been thirty or so) some sort of mentor/maternal relationship on Brooke's part.  It makes sense (at least by sane soap opera standards) that Eliott/Josh would want to see how Brooke's life ended up and try to make up for things.  Like I said, the problem was the execution.  And like I also said, totally an Agnes Nixon story--one of her big misfires  ;)

    And one other particularly annoying thing about making Eliott a potential love interest is poor Brooke, one of my fave characters, had such an insulting track record with men in the 90s.  Some, like Tad and Edmund merely ended up with someone, I guess they loved more.  Then there was Pierce(s), then Jim, then Eliott, one after the other.

    10 hours ago, DRW50 said:


    The Kit story started in July or August 1998, I think. Even though the actress was in over her head, I still gave the story a chance until the rape and the twist of her lying about Tad raping her (which even McTavish said was a mistake). So about 6-7 months into her second run. I know a lot of people hated her return from the start, which I understand (especially with the Camille and Lee Hawkins saga), but there were enough things I still enjoyed at that point, like Stuart and Marian, and early Ryan and Gillian, Opal leaving Palmer and the Adrian story, etc. (I'm also biased because she gave one of my favorite characters [Gloria] a good exit) It got just awful by fall 1998 though. I will say I still kept watching - it was only in 1999, with Page and whoever else, and stuff like the Martins hounding Dixie into a miscarriage that I finally had enough.


    I do appreciate Broderick's efforts to keep Kevin on the canvas - I guess it isn't surprising he disappeared 5-6 months after she was fired. 


    McTavish made a lot of terrible mistakes but I still think in her heart she did understand AMC in a way many other headwriters did not. She just had no self-control and no proper guidance for most of her tenures, especially when it came time for her fixations on sexual assault. But when she was good, to me she was very good, and some characters, like Kendall, just didn't really work without her. 

    RIght, poor Kevin in the Holidays explosion.  I don't think he had ANY story under McTavish before hand either--just appearances.

    OK a Page character during McTavish's run sounds familiar, but I can not place her and the Net isn't helping.  Who was she?  I do agree with you about the good parts of her run.  I also *completely* agree with your final paragraph, which is one reason I often defend McTavish (it may help that I got hooked on AMC during the period when McTavish first took over from Nixon.  ANd she definitely does need the right EP (which is true of many HWers, but particularly her).  Certainly she seemed to get AMC better than anything else, despite having worked as an actress on GL and briefly on that writing team (it was said when she was promoted that Agnes Nixon had been priming her for the job).  Unfortunately the writer I know who worked under her during that period and then was promoted under Broderick, refused to discuss McTavish (though, unlike some writers, I think he liked working with her, fine.)  And yes, soaps *still* rely on rape too much and handle it more often poorly, but McTavish is particularly egregious in this respect--I mean Bell (sometimes) was pretty bad in this case, and JER of course was far more irresponsible than anyone about rape stories, but...

  14. You know, I hate to say it, but I suspect the Brooke and Elliot/Josh Waleski story was Agnes Nixon who was co-headwriter still (officially) when that story happened.  She does have misfires, and this story was WAY more Agnes Nixon's style than Jean's.  I know that period is often credited to Nixon handling the Bianca stuff (she came out two months after the Eliott story was wrapped up) and Jean doing the rest, but speaking to members of the writing team that wasn't remotely true (and you did notice a sharp shift shortly after Bianca came out in 2001 and Nixon left as official co-headwriter.  The whole speech from Becca (a failed Nixon character--I think she wanted a return to old school young heroines like Tara--remember she created Greenlee to be an Erica type foil to her) is VERY Agnes Nixon.  Thankfully, whether this was a late change in story or not, they never had Brooke fully forgive Elliot.

    That era (Agnes Nixon was co-HW first briefly with Elizabeth Page, then with Passanante from Spring 1999 till the end ofJanuary 2001, according to the credits, but according to an interview with the show for AfterElton, Agnes Nixon mostly had mapped out the next few months and story beats of Bianca's story) was pretty schizo, but especially before the Bianca story got rolling, you did get a sense that Nixon was trying to restore a sense of community back to PV after McTavish's second run.  Characters interacted more, there was more of a small town vibe and intergeneration connections, and they had B stories that seemed her style like poor Marian trying desperate to be accepted into Enid Nelson's snobby society group.  I admit that, even with the shiplash in tones, I really did look forward to AMC every day back then.

    Honestly though *hides* I liked aspects of the storyline and never quite get why it was hated as much as some other stories.  I think the execution was poor, but it does fit into a classic AMC theme of whether one can and should be forgiven for their actions and if they can ever redeem themselves through subsequent actions.  And I stand by my statement--Eliott was an Agnes story, and one we can't blame Jean for. 


    An earlier episode (I had completely forgotten Tina!) with the full writing credits:


  15. 5 minutes ago, VanessaReardon said:

    Schnessel accepted an Emmy for OLTL. Can’t remember the year but maybe it was ‘87? 

    Yes--he was O'Shea's associate headwriter and took over from her halfway through 1987, though that Emmyw as for O'Shea's work I believe.

  16. Ha I don't remember the twin brother *at all*. 

    Didn't Born at some point say that he had been promised that ultimately his character would prove not to have been the pornographer and be Brooke's love interest (which makes no sense from anything we saw)?  I hate to suggest it too, but you could be right about him having personal problems at the time--certainly he played vile stuff as Mitch. 

    I always thought the Kit stuff with McTavish happened early on!  She did some good stuff--building up the Kiefers, etc.  But I believe her stint started with all that stuff with the "ghost" (who turned out to be another abused blonde woman set to torment Adam about his memories), the psychic tattoo, etc.  Of course considering some of what was to come--as much as it's useless to speak this way--it all somehow doesn't seem quite so bad, at least to me.  (As you know, though, I have a rep on here for being a McTavish defender which isn't really fair ;) )

    I appreciated that Broderick seemed keen on keeping some of the less showy stories, etc.  I've mentioned it before, but when I was working on my MA essay about homosexual soap storylines (etc) I spoke to one of her major writers who said how important it was to her to keep Kevin on the canvas and in a viable way (in 1997--while the network was still scared to give him a boyfriend though they were inching there--they had the whole storyline with Kelsey, which struck me as pretty realistic, the gay conversion storyline--a tv first!--etc).

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