wonderwoman1951

On 4/1/2024 at 9:20 PM, DramatistDreamer said:

In the last few years, I would sometimes wonder why tptb in the last decade or so seemed to regard the show’s history as disposable. Sometimes I would think that perhaps they just didn’t care or that maybe the writers and executives were clueless or lazy and/or incompetent. But I recently, I thought about this and another aspect entered my thoughts: did these people assume that they no longer had to write for long-time viewers? Were they only absorbed in courting newer and more recent viewers, assuming that whatever long-time viewers would just hang in and watch, just because? I am just curious about the mindset of people who obviously know they are writing/producing a show that has been on air for generations with a long history, characters that were still on the canvas from the early years of the series and yet, decided to chuck so much history in the bin.

it actually began in 1995, when john valente replaced laurie caso. there was a lot of pressure from cbs, which had engineered the executive producer shuffle, and it was les moonves who ‘suggested’ valente hire black&stern as head writers. 

i was on the set the day they shot the 40th anniversary episode and the constant refrain from tptb was ‘we’re not 40 years old; we 40 years young!’ 

and for the second time, the hughes family was pushed to the sidelines. the first time was in the early 1980s, as atwt chased the luke and laura phenomenon. ironically, it was laurie caso who righted the ship with bob calhoun and doug marland, which he discusses in the locher room interview (amazed that it’s been a week and no one has commented).

things deteriorated further when goutman took over and brought on hogan schefer. the [!@#$%^&*] really hit the fan in 2003, when barbra bloom took over at cbs daytime and start bringing on actors she worked with at abc. although, to be fair, the abcification began in 1997, when felicia mini behr took over from john valente and immediately replaced allyson rice taylor’s connor walsh with susan battan — possibly the worst recast ever!

re maureen and roger: i always thought that rather than driving off the road and dying, had maureen gone to a lawyer and begun divorce proceedings against ed, things could have gotten very interesting between the two of them. not a romantic relationship — though they could have teased that — but their friendship would have deepened. ed would have fallen off the wagon into a bottle of scotch, and maureen and roger aside, dealing with michelle and that fact that maureen wasn’t her biological stories.

jill farren phelps squandered so much potential story by killing off maureen. but… since buzz cooper arrived in springfield less than a month after maureen died, i’ve always believed it was to free up enough money to bring justin deas on board. 

2 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Katie (with EddieMan) found the tape of Margo offing Casey..and they were like, "Oh, that's sad...but she did what she needed to do," and that was the end. It could have been dramatic but..no.  

don’t know why they even bothered.

and as far as dramatic — not knowing her father could (should) have been a real issue for katie; finding out that margo was the one who pulled the plug could have created an emotionally authentic rift between them. 

instead it was as though tptb said, ‘well, i guess we have to say something,’ then just checked it off the list. 

1 hour ago, adrnyc said:

And I still will never understand this board's dislike of Katie. She's a legacy character for goodness sake. We saw her born. We saw Margo euthanize Katie's father. There's a lot of history there.

exactly! all that history that was never explored. cannot recall katie and margo ever discussing casey’s death. and i don’t think katie and craig — her brother! — ever had a scene together. 

i had always assumed it was a straight-up money issue between martha and goutman. but on one of the early locher room reunions she said something — don’t remember exactly what — that may me go ‘hmm.’

didn’t say anything at the time, but shortly thereafter, a friend mentioned that she had heard martha on another podcast and wondered if something had happened between her and gountman.

that got me to wondering about goutman’s unholy obsession with katie as the show’s ‘little sweetheart’ (his words).

so…

On 2/27/2024 at 8:21 AM, Mitch64 said:

My fault as I asked the question about the unabortion and I heard the unfortunate answer! I am glad McTrash got no where near ATWT or we would have the Grandpa Hughes collaborating with Nazis and Judge Lowell running a sweat shop behind the Wade Bookstore and he and Lisa had an affair and James was their son....

responding to the unabortion topic here only because dough marland set the gold standard for how to rewrite a soap opera’s history. 

i wasn’t watching amc at the time, but when i heard about the unabortion, i felt, as most did, that not only was this an insult to viewers, but to agnes nixon’s groundbreaking story, as well.

went without saying that the science to support the story simply did not exist. then a few years ago. i caught an episode of ‘the bold ones,’ an anthology series from the early ‘70s. one of the segments, ‘the new doctors,’ focused on cutting edge medicine and seemed to be grounded in some kind of reality — one episode from the last season dealt with acupuncture. 

this episode was titled ‘a substitute womb,’ and dealt with a woman with a serious cardiac condition who was advised not to continue her pregnancy. the doctors wanted to try implanting the embryo into another woman’s uterus. it was her sister, so lots of drama ensued, and i don’t recall how things turned out. 

i poked around online to see if there was in fact some early research behind this episode. but, with ivf, there’s so much info and i couldn’t out how to refine my search to find out what might have been going on in the late 60s-early 70s. 

often wondered if megan mctavish had seen this episode. of course, even if she had, it was still a stupid, unnecessary story.

a substitute womb

24 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

I've always heard they were gawd-awful at Falcon Crest, and crippled that show instantly when they took over the head writing reigns. I don't think Black and Stern were were as bad/damaging as JER, Charles Pratt, Thom Racina, Leah Laiman, and some other, notoriously-awful writers, but I have the feeling that their material would not be stellar under the best of circumstances.

not sure where black and stern fall in the pantheon of bad headwriters. what i can tell you is that it was at les moonves’s “suggestion” that black and stern became atwt’s headwriters, which they both told me, and was confirmed by lucy johnson, head of cbs daytime. 

atwt taped the 40th anniversary episode which aired on 2 april in mid-march. 

9 hours ago, danfling said:

Ms. Phillips had used abortion as a storyline for the first time on Another World when character Pat Matthews had an illegal abortion.  I don't think that NBC had all of the reservations that CBS seemed to have

from the creation of another world

“While the AW bible may have revealed nothing about Pat Matthew's pregnancy and abortion, according to Elana Levine, as the story unfolded, NBC censors requested a number of script changes. Some were to insure medical accuracy: making clear that the cause of Pat's sterility was the infection that resulted from the abortion, not the abortion itself. Others addressed Pat's level of responsibility for the situation, with one NBC censor warning against her being portrayed as "totally innocent or blameless." While this placed responsibility on Pat for her sexual behavior, not the unjust societal expectations of young women, Levine points out, "it also attributed to her some agency, even sexual agency—'good' young women who got themselves in such situations were not mere victims of duplicitous men."

Levine goes on to say that while these changes were likely made to provide NBC cover from being seen as endorsing immoral or illegal behavior, "they also resulted in greater ambiguity about the causes of Pat’s troubles—did she make bad choices or was her situation an impossible one to navigate? If the latter, what made it so untenable? The openness of soap storytelling invited such questions."

”

just finished watching the first 2 episodes of truman versus the swans.

about 31 minutes into the 2nd episode truman is watching an episode of ‘family,’ and observes: 

‘the writing on this show is so good. i mean, tennessee would be jealous. the secret is they love each other no matter how badly they behave.’

who’d a thunk… reminded me how much i miss this show — and the now-defunct decades, which has been replaced by catchy comedy.

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

8 hours ago, wonderwoman1951 said:

for sure! but it was also the best of times for serious discussion of soaps online. before the suits figured out how to monetize the web, there were so many websites — media domain; we love soaps; daytime confidential; snark weighs in; marlena de la croix; tom casiello; sara bibel; a couple on the now defunct red room; the soap pages on television without pity (i’m sure i’ve forgotten a few) — where the authors read and commented on each other’s postings.

miss those conversations and connections. 

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I didn't see that as the best of times as I felt that sites like DC and their agenda in favor of certain regimes held too much sway, but I do miss the We Love Soaps interviews (and if not for them a number of precious GL and ATWT episodes would still be in the vaults).

i’m not clear about how daytime confidential held too much sway… 

however, the time i’m referencing, the mid-late aughts, when bloggers all read each other, and would point their readers to posts they found interesting. there were conversations, along with the occasional disagreement. it was great for fans who learned a lot. no one worried about clicks.

but that all went away when the suits started monetizing.  

5 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

Speaking of which, welovesoaps.net I mean, the last 3 times I've tried to access the site I've gotten an error. Is it just me & my Internet connection or is there a problem with the site? Anyone got any idea? Thanks. 

haven’t talked to roger in a while, but wouldn’t be surprised if he’s shut it down — may have become too expensive to keep online.

i remember when ‘snark weighs in’  — which i loved — just disappeared one day, never to be seen or heard from again, same with mediadomain: no warning; just one day it was gone. 

20 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

That article did raise an issue that has been in the back of my mind for well over a decade now, the possibility that any shifts were going to alienate viewers at any given time period.  Many of us 1970s babies grew up watching the soaps of the 1980s and loving them, but there is a possibility that viewers that were watching from the 1960s and 70s were alienated by the drift away from the character

oh absolutely! inevitable with a genre that continues for decades. 

but, what was interesting — and the source of considerable online discussion in the late aughts — was how character driven story found its was into primetime serials: not ‘dallas’ and ‘dynasty,’ but shows like ‘friday night lights,’ to name but one. 

here’s what ‘snark weighs in’ had to say:

[M]any primetime fans are former daytime fans who now stick exclusively with primetime, because it’s the only place they can get anything resembling the socially aware, character-driven, serialized storytelling they used to get from soaps.”
 

4 minutes ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Unfortunately in the late ‘00s disparaging soaps was low-hanging fruit since so many were plagued by poor writing and production choices but the critical mass of disparaging comments read so much like piling on.

for sure! but it was also the best of times for serious discussion of soaps online. before the suits figured out how to monetize the web, there were so many websites — media domain; we love soaps; daytime confidential; snark weighs in; marlena de la croix; tom casiello; sara bibel; a couple on the now defunct red room; the soap pages on television without pity (i’m sure i’ve forgotten a few) — where the authors read and commented on each other’s postings.

miss those conversations and connections. 

it’s funny. in the late aughts, when ginia bellafante was one of the ny times television critics, she was deep in the closet about even watching soaps. at that time, she made a lot of disparaging — even insulting — comments about soaps.

can’t remember who the blogger was who called her out. but, over the years she came around. 

another ny times piece by the same writer:

ginia bellafante on ryan’s hope

capote link

here you go

8 hours ago, Donna L. Bridges said:

8 hours ago, wonderwoman1951 said:

i have it on good authority that goutman wanted to bring beverlee for the finale, but was overruled by pgp. 

I thought that at one point, too, and I even posted that. But then I found out that P&G had no problem with it & the invitation was extended. I learned about the invitation & about her health & her inability to fly at that point which caused her to have to decline, from her son Scott who is a friend, as well as being a Director at DAYS.

donna — pretty sure that we both heard the initial report from the same person, who was in a position to know at the time. i also posted about it.

thanks for the updated info.

3 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

And extended an invitation to Beverlee knowing full well ill heath or not, she probably wouldn't accept.

i have it on good authority that goutman wanted to bring beverlee for the finale, but was overruled by pgp. 

55 minutes ago, Sapounopera said:

Such a big house for such a poor family. I envisioned a more  urban exterior.

as i recall, it was a boarding house, so it would have generated income. 

i don’t recall the reardon’s backstory. perhaps the family fell on hard times after the father died?

10 hours ago, ranger1rg said:

On 1/10/2024 at 10:29 PM, wonderwoman1951 said:

that must be one steep curve. while hal’s memorial might have been ‘somewhat distasteful,’ blowing through nancy’s (and helen’s) in a single episode — no on-screen funeral, no returning family members — and only a couple of weeks before the show's final episode…

sorry — while gh’s effort may seem inadequate to some fans, it’s eons better than the insult ‘world turns fans had thrown in our faces. 

With all due respect, none of this is about ATWT or the Helen Wagner tribute. If that was so terrible, why use it as a bar that the JZ tribute needed to clear?

was just making a comparison. no need to get your knickers in a twist.

and for the record, this was the conversation ‘steep curve’ referenced.

   On 1/10/2024 at 9:11 PM,  wonderwoman1951 said: 

you want to see something ‘practically over before it began,’ have a look at christopher goutman tried to pass off as a ‘tribute’ to helen wagner — the last original cast member who was on the show for virtually its entire 54 year run. 

at least gh made an effort — inadequate perhaps — but an effort nevertheless.

helen wagner ‘tribute’ 

I didn't think that was too bad, although I may be grading on a curve because of other memorials like Hal's that I found somewhat distasteful (mainly because they kept "joking" about how many children he had by various women)

marisa paven, who played max dubujak’s mother, chantal, has died. 

here’s a free link.

marisa pavan obit

48 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

1 hour ago, wonderwoman1951 said:

you want to see something ‘practically over before it began,’ have a look at christopher goutman tried to pass off as a ‘tribute’ to helen wagner — the last original cast member who was on the show for virtually its entire 54 year run. 

at least gh made an effort — inadequate perhaps — but an effort nevertheless.

helen wagner ‘tribute’ 

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I didn't think that was too bad, although I may be grading on a curve because of other memorials like Hal's that I found somewhat distasteful (mainly because they kept "joking" about how many children he had by various women).

that must be one steep curve. while hal’s memorial might have been ‘somewhat distasteful,’ blowing through nancy’s (and helen’s) in a single episode — no on-screen funeral, no returning family members — and only a couple of weeks before the show's final episode…

sorry — while gh’s effort may seem inadequate to some fans, it’s eons better than the insult ‘world turns fans had thrown in our faces. 

2 hours ago, AbcNbc247 said:

Bobbie/JZ deserved so much better, so much more than that. The funeral scenes and eulogies were really nice and really touching, but that was all practically over before it began

you want to see something ‘practically over before it began,’ have a look at christopher goutman tried to pass off as a ‘tribute’ to helen wagner — the last original cast member who was on the show for virtually its entire 54 year run. 

at least gh made an effort — inadequate perhaps — but an effort nevertheless.

helen wagner ‘tribute’ 

1 hour ago, DramatistDreamer said:

Wasn’t Hendrickson also a caregiver to two family members who were gravely ill? As someone who was a caregiver to loved one who passed away less than a year ago, I can tell you that it can leave a deep and painful impact that you struggle with, it can also be depressing and if you don’t get help, devastating, I would imagine.

yes — his mother and brother. after he died, his nephew released a few of the notes he left to people magazine, one of which said something to the effect that “every aspect of his life was tinged with sadness.”

it sounded as though he had been depressed for some time. 

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

 

@Soapsuds Thanks. Never seen that news clip before. Given the other recent thread it's fitting to hear Marland talking about soaps being ashamed of themselves.

nor had i. appreciate it!