SON Community: SteveFrame - Viewing Profile

Sorry but a lot of that does not even make sense -- from a business standpoint. CBS would be stupid to continue over and over putting money into a show that is not showing enough profit. You can't just keep on putting money into something over and over and risk losing the whole network to save one show.

CBS had to cancel Without A Trace for the same thing. The show cost a lot to produce but the ratings were not there so they chose to cancel the show to go with something that didn't cost as much money to produce. I have read that several places.

In this time when ratings are lower, advertisers are spending less or more frugal with their advertising dollars, and there is more competition the networks are having to make some tough decisions.

I can understand the anger and the sadness over losing the show you love and you have the right to blame whoever you want.

But sorry GL's cancellation can be aimed at P&G, Wheeler, Kreizman, and the producers and all that went before them. They are the ones that got GL cancelled.

And the other powers that be are the ones that are killing the other shows. They are the ones making viewers quit watching and other viewers not coming to them. Sorry but I can't blame the networks when they decide to cut their losses when the powers that be behind daytime are the ones killing the shows.

The shows are killing themselves and in the end they are going no matter what is replacing them. And sorry but some of them need to be killed at this point.

Days went back to classic soap opera storytelling. That is strong women dominating story and that is the way the classic soaps were. You had strong men but everything centered around a strong woman. Although EJ and Rafe and so many have been parts of the story this year the central characters in that story have been the women -- Sami, Nicole, and even the minor women in the stories. Plus yes they got rid of vets but they restored adn used the vets they had properly esp. Maggie, Victor and Stefano. They restored Sami from the crying winy mess that Sheffer had turned her into where she couldn't even fart without Lucas and EJ saying it was okay. Stefano and Victor were no longer OLD MEN as Sheffer saw them but the powerful men they had been and drove and provided the strength their families needed.

Although you see a lot of Sami and Nicole you don't feel like (or at least I didn't while I was watching) dominated by them. They interact with other characters and their story touches so many and those people just aren't reading letters or just there -- they are integral parts of the story.

You are right that the only thing the other shows are seeing is that you can fire vets but they aren't taking the principle of what to do or to change about the show to cover for those vets. Firing a vet and then just giving more air time to the flavor of the day only angers fans and makes their disappearance even more apparent.

And the shows also are not learning from the history. P&G esp. never did.

1979 is a pivotal year in looking at the history of soaps esp. in regards to P&G. GH was soaring with what P&G took as a youth directed storyline. They didn't see that the real reason they were soaring was that yes you had a youth oriented storyline centered around Scotty and Laura but that the heart of the storyline was the veteran character Lesley Webber. When Laura killed her lover, Lesley took the blame and went on trial to save her daughter. Laura became even more frail in many ways in her relationship with Scotty due to what had happened and the fact that she was living a lie. Lesley's husband Rick felt neglected and jealous because Lesley was sacrificing everything for Laura. Thus he turned to Monica -- his ex-lover -- and began an affiar and inpregnated her or at least thought he did. At the center of all the stories was the longtime heroine of the show Lesley Webber.

Well P&G decided they wanted the youth market so they suddenly decided to cast out anyone they saw as old on their shows in 1979 and replace them with younger characters and faces. On EON they got rid of veteran Mandel Kramer who had played the police chief and replaced him the younger good looking sexy Dennis Parker as Derek Mallory. At SFT they got rid of Carl Low -- Jo's other confidante Dr. Bob Rogers. At ATWT they dumped John Colenback as Dan Stewart and let original cast member William Johnstone go and just fade from view along with Lisa's mother Alma Miller. Kim Stewart was given a new love interest with the sexy Nick Andropolous who's younger kid brother came along in tow. On Another World, fans had long hoped for Pat and John to get back together, but Michael M. Ryan was fired and his chaarcter killed off. Pat soon got a new sexier leading man in Robert Gentry and Lee Patterson as Michael M. Ryan was much older and not as sexy.

In the next 2 years P&G would dump even more veteran older characters and performers: Beverly Penberthy (AW), Helen Wagner (ATWT), Don MacLaughlin (ATWT), David Bailey (AW), James Douglas (ATWT), Marie Masters (ATWT), Kelly Wood (ATWT), Barbara Rodell (ATWT), Conard Fowkes (ATWT), Barbara Berjer (GL), Stephen Schnabel (GL), Robert Milli (GL), Billee Lou Watt (SFT), and many others.

Mart Hulswit was deemed too unsexy even though he was still very popular but his widening belly and his thinning hair was no longer acceptable and he was fired as Ed Bauer to be replaced with the younger sexier Peter Simon.

All the P&G shows brought on more and more new characters and younger characters, and over the next few years phased out more and more of their veteran characters. GL was the only one that made it work for awhile, but so many of the changes in the early 80's really hurt them in the long run.

By 1984, GL only had one character Ed Bauer with any ties to the past -- the rest were from the late 70's and forward. AW only had Liz,Rachel and Ada with any ties to AW's beginnings.

A whole set of viewers were alienated and driven away. Many did go to work but many moved on to other shows or just quit watching. Ratings dropped for many of these shows and never ever recovered.

CBS wouldn't have been the ones to give GL money for it's budget. The budget for GL was determined by P&G -- not CBS. The only thing that CBS did was license to use GL on it's schedule.

P&G would have been the ones who determined if GL got money for it's anniversary -- not CBS.

CBS would have looked at the ratings to determine if the show was still profitable to pay the licensing fee and that would have been it. P&G would have looked at them to determine what they could charge CBS to air their show. That was the extent of CBS's involvement there. Based on what CBS is willing to pay to air GL then P&G determines how much they can give the show.

ALL that in the end that CBS did was to say we no longer are going to air GL. We won't pay to license the show any longer. And evidently there wasn't enough in regards to demos, etc. to interest another network to license the show either and thus P&G had to choose to end GL.

That is how it works with Days too. NBC can still pay hardball with Corday and Sony when negotiations come around. If NBC chooses to not honor what they pay Days now or decides that cost they are paying is still not worth it -- then Corday will have to make a choice of either cutting the show more to mmet what NBC is willing to pay or choose to cancel it or market it elsewhere. Corday will set the budget for DAys next year based on what he can sell the show to NBC for.

The total thing is opposite with ABC. They own all 3 shows and yes ABC does determine the budget for their shows. They don't license them.

The thing with LMAD is that CBS does own it and thus the ratings for it can be a little lower and it still make more money than GL did. It is already cheaper to produce so it doesn't require as big of rating or as much advertising money. Plus there is an advatage to advertisers with a game show. They get double exposure. Their products are advertised during the show and during commercials too.

Back to my discussion before and a little more based on the comments and stuff.

CarlD -- maybe not here but yes many GL fans have said that LMAD needs to fail and that GL may come back if GL fans let CBS know they are not going to watch whatever is in that hour.

As to not having a defetist attitude and people looking at Days this last year to point at the fact that not all soaps are dead or going to die.

The difference with Days and the other soaps is that the other soaps are not letting what is happening at Days happen on them. And the thing at Days can change at any time.

I have said over and over and over that Days could turn around IF and WHEN Sony, Corday and NBC let one person come in and say what was going to happen. Right now it seems from all the gossip and all that Days right now is operating as one vision and it is succeding. When Days succeeded before Ken Corday sat back and let things happen. Remember he has been there a long time -- only when he started interfering and NBC started interfering and Sony started interfering did things start to tank.

You cannot take and have 3 owning companies decide a vision for the show. And all try to force that vision on the show and make it work. Look at the last few years. Corday brought JER back at the seeming insistance of NBC and it didn't work because they butted heads constantly. Plus they didn't have the balls to let things happen and stick to it. When fans got riled they gave in and made changes -- changes that nearly cost the show. From every piece of gossip out there it is clear that Hogan and Corday didn't get along either. They both kept putting out conflicting reports about what was going to happen. Finally Sony steps in and puts their man in there and then you had Corday, Hogan and Ed Scott all butting heads.

Right now it seems that Corday, NBC and Sony are letting Tomlin, Whitesell, and Higley do their thing. And the lack of turmoil backstage is evidently showing up on screen and all. I'm not watching but from what I hear from everyone who likes it it is great.

Yes many fans are still mad. The fan bases are bitching. But Corday is not jumping the gun this time. It seems like his balls are attached for once.

Now the reason that you cannot have a defetist attitude in regards to the other shows is that you still have the factors of the networks and owners interfering and seemingly not caring. They are interfering with writers and forcing their visions on the show and not letting things happen as they should. Also with the P&G show ATWT they are sticking with the status quo and not making changes that needed to be made a long time ago. Moving the writer of GL who clearly had flaws over to ATWT is not the right move and is not going to save the show. B&B just continues the same old same old over and over with nothing new. It is obvious Brad Bell is played out with these characters and he is not even taking a lesson from his Dad in that after awhile you have to breathe some new life into them. Let couples move in and grow and advance.

The 2nd generation of Bells clearly learned nothing from their father at all. They obviously don't care about Y&R at all. They would have never let CBS, Sony and Latham do all the damage they did if they did care. And now they are doing more damage to the show themselves than Latham ever did.

And Frons and his minons Carruthers, McTavish, Valenti, Higley, Pratt, Carlivati, Guza, and Phelps have destroyed ABC daytime. And I don't see any of them stepping down and as long as they are all there -- there is no hope for any of the shows getting any better. I loved Carlivati in the beginning just like I did Maria Bell. But even though he still uses some of the vets in some ways to me is no better than Higley in that Higley turned OLTL over to her characters and CArlivati is doing the same thing. Even when Vicki and Dorian are used it is more of a prop now to Carlivati's newer characters and not anything that helps their character at all. Each one of the 3 ABC shows are about the writer's faves and Fron's faves. Nothing has changed and nothing will ever change. Even if Zach Slater does leave AMC I have no doubt in my mind that Frons won't move heaven and earth to move Thorsten Kaye to OLTL where he will be a character rip-off of Zach and take over the stories on OLTL.

None of the shows are even attempting to do what Days has done in the last year. And I have lost so much faith in the genre that sorry I don't have the faith that they ever will. And without making changes there is no hope for the other 7 soaps. So how can you not get a defetist attitude when the people behind the soaps don't care.

Every one has a right to wish bad luck on any show whether it's Let's Make A Deal or whatever. But to think that LMAD's failure is going to bring back GL, or that it would have saved GL or any other soap is totally thinking in dreamland.

The writing was on the wall for GL just like it is for ATWT. The same way it was for every radio soap in the 1950's when they began to fail. Nothing at that point could have saved them.

Live viewing is the only thing that can save the shows right now. Everyone wants to blame the ratings system or yell and hollar about the fact that people are watching online or people are taping it or DVRing it. All that you can say is kudos for all those but the sad fact is that budgets are STILL not based on that. We are a product of the times just like the soaps were in the 50's. Did it matter to the radio fans who loved their soaps that they lost them because technology was moving in a new direction?

I have read articles that fans of GL on radio were just as angry in 1956 when CBS radio chose to end broadcasting GL on radio in favor of the TV production which was getting better ratings. Not everyone at that point had a TV or could afford a TV so many missed GL at that point.

The sad fact is that things are in transition right now and technology and new forms of viewing are moving faster than the ratings panel can catch up. They still have not worked out a good and effective way to monitor fully online viewing to determine just how many of those views are unique views and how many are repeated views. Until that catches up advertisers are not going to switch to an unproven method of viewing esp. when they are having to be more cautious in how they spend their advertising dollars. They are going to stick with what they know and that is live viewing.

Live viewing is what is killing every soap right now. Many people are working and the ones who are at home just are not watching live. And that is what is determining who is getting saved at this point. Add to that the fact that the soaps are not doing anything to make viewers want to stay or to tune in. I have quit watching individual soaps many times over the last 10 years and usually always go back. Last year I quit watching every soap for a short time for the first time in 39 years of viewing them. Still I kept up with what was going on.

12 weeks ago I quit watching every soap cold turkey. I owe that to the state of Y&R. I got so mad at what was going on with the P3 mess that I just turned it off and every soap with it. For the first time in 40 years now that I have viewed soaps I have not read one weekly summary, kept up with what was going on at all. For the first time in 40 years my love is completely gone for any of the 8 remaining soaps. I tuned in to see the next to last day of GL and that is the only episode I have watched in 12 weeks. I just don't care anymore. I'm done and I doubt I will ever return. And I owe it all to the fools who running the soaps. They made me not care. I have read one spoiler and thats it even on them. No one would have ever convinced me I would walk away that easyily.

Back to my point, the writing was on the wall for GL. And I am sorry for the fans of the show for it's loss, but for me GL ended a long time ago. It was a shell of it's former self. The last 3 to 5 years it has been suffering a long agonizingly painful death. Last March I just could not watch it die any longer. It was just too painful to watch the show I loved suffer the way it was. For me it was a relief to know that the suffering is over and that no more damage can be done to this show I loved so well and to the characters I loved so well. Many of them had become so unrecognizable. And I think that is why it has been so easy to quit all the shows is the destruction that has been done to so many of the characters I knew and loved. So many of them are not the characters I loved anymore.

GL was going to end no matter what. It is a point that I had to realize with AW. AW's end was already determined and nothing that we could have done could have saved it. NBC and P&G were both determined and no matter what show replaced it or whatever it was done. The same with GL. And nothing at this point is going to bring it back.