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ATWT: December Discussion


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If she's truly "just" a director, all she'll be doing is directing episodes. I think people mostly fear that she's being snuck in to reacquaint herself with the workings of the show, get a feel for it, then TIIC will boot Goutman and install her as Executive Producer.

I'm sure there's more to "director" than simply choosing camera angles and blocking the show, but I don't know what else there is.

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I like crazy Meg--she's not over the top but just right as she becomes twisted and unhinged. I actually found the Jack and Liberty scenes at Brad's grave tolerable.

I'm not afraid of Wheeler coming to ATWT as a director again. If you remember had been directing the show for a few years back in '04 when she was chosen as EP for GL. Her episodes weren't half bad either. She even made some convenient appearances as Marley. Directing and acting seem to be her forte--give her power and she fails at all levels. I wouldn't worry unless she either gets Co-EP or some other "special" producer credit (ie, consulting producer)

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I am leery of Ellen Wheeler coming to ATWT.

She was a good director (IMHO) the last time she was on the show.

Her record at GL clouds all of that now for me though.

She wasn't the only reason GL was cancelled but she played a big part in its' cancellation.

P&G/Televest shouldn't have rewarded her with another job.

A change did happen today that might affect future scripts. Courtney Simon is gone. She was the script editor who assigned the script to the script writers and then edited their work. She was replaced by David A. Levinson.

Simon has a long history with this show.

From Toups archives:

It will be intersting to see if we can tell there has been a change on screen!

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GL also would not have lasted another 5 years if not for Ellen Wheeler. She's not qualified to be a producer but she seems to be a competent director.

I'm sorry that Courtney Simon was fired. I don't understand why. It seems like the show should focus more on their past history, not less.

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I'm not sure P&G "rewarded" Wheeler with anything. She could be working against any money P&G owed her from GL. Sort of like she was demoted and given another job in the company.

I love Simon---but script continuity has been spotty for years. I'm sure it's not all her fault, given scripts are shot so out of order. But if it's her responsibility to make sure some of those loose ends get tied up, and they don't, then maybe a fresh eye is needed.

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Just to be sure my memory isn't gone but wasn't Kirk's big secret that he abandoned his wife and kids and that his ex-wife was really Iva's biological sister or something right? Poor Kirk I always liked him but they made him real slimy jerk sometimes, especially in later years.

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Yep...Kirk had abandoned his wife Lenore and their two kids and had an affair with Adelaide FitzGibbon, his boss (played by Susan Brown). Lenore was Iva's cousin, and I think she actually had some kind of breakdown afterward. Lenore was so scared by Kirk's reappearance, she ran away with the kids and nearly burned down in a cabin after lighting a fire. Kirk went in to save them, and looked like a lobster for weeks.

And yep, at one point Iva's father Jarrod Carpenter was dueling Cal for the right to date Emma.

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I never knew any of that. Thanks so much. I always thought they missed an opportunity in not bringing Kirk's kids in for a longer visit. For the brief time he was around, Julie's son Pete was one of the brighter spots of the show.

Susan Brown. Wow. She was Gail on GH/PC, right? I wonder if Marland cast her, since he wrote for her when she was at GH.

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Today's show sucked. <_<

Liberty's so durn flippy floppy, you can't tell which end is up with her. When Jack left Janet in a puddle of tears on the Snyder kitchen, Liberty hugged her and said something like "I never wanted it to happen like this". Then, today, she's reminding Janet all about the bad, bad man that killed her dad in cold blood *eyeroll*. Then, runs to the cemetary to tell Jack to keep trying to be a better husband for her mom. Then, runs back across town and whines that if Jack and Janet reconcile, she's out the door. OMG...Would you PLEASE make up your mind? It's so hard for me to believe she envisions her dad drinking draft beer and listening to rock and roll. She was never really that close to him when he was alive. Mostly, because he was trying to keep her from spreadin her legs for Parker. The fact that she has soooo much animosity toward Jack would be understandable if the shooting were any less of an accident, but it wasn't. Let's stuff HER in a dark room, with a gun, and have someone shoot at her!!!

I guess we finally have an age for Brad. He was 35. Born in 1974. History buffs, does this sound right? What would that make Jack, now that Brad is his "younger" brother? In his 40's, huh??

The grave scenes with Jack talking to Brad were blah, at best. Sorta fell flat for me. The dialogue was good, but it could've been miles better.

Anyone else think that this whole "soul searching/moral awakening" story with Jack is just a step or two away from making him the nuHal? The new reasoning voice and moral compass of Oakdale? Once he gets past all this self-soubt, that is....

The catfight was stellar. And I loved seeing Lisa in the middle of it all. Eileen Fulton is such a wasted talent. I'd love to see her reading the riot act to Damian if/when his manipulations are finally revealed.

The set-up for the poisoning was well done. Meg's threat to Damian in Milltown...the long, awkward stare-down between Meg and the cake....the threats she made to him at Lily's house. It's looking like Meg is the guilty party, and I have a feeling that's what the writers are wanting us to think. (P.S.--What was the point of Lily...no doubt, boastfully....inviting Meg into the house, and then two seconds later, threatening to call the cops because she's there?? You just let her in, you idiot!)

Everytime Molly's around, it seems like she's investigating something. The woman should open up her own P.I. business. Although, Holden wouldn't be a very good partner. He finds out from Lisa that Meg is living in Damian's room, and automatically assumes Damian's right and she's making it all up in her head. D'uhrr, Holden! How could she possibly move in to Damian's room without his permission?? The room is still in his name!!!!!

Still not understanding w.t.f. just happened with Carly/Craig/Rosanna... :huh: The oddest part was Carly randomly popping in at Fashions and offering to design Rosanna's wedding dress just MINUTES after outing Craig for kissing her. So...let me get this straight: Craig kisses Carly, Carly tells Rosanna, Craig tries to lie but Carly outs him again, Rosanna gets upset, and then Carly shows up at Fashions, offering to design a custom gown for her sister and advising her to "marry the jerk"....?????!!!! :blink: That makes no sense whatsoever.

A big EEEE! for the preview of Meg grabbing a pillow. Smother him, Meg!!!! SMOTHER HIM!!!!!

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Well its been slow for me trying to get back into the show, but I enjoyed today. That Lily/Meg catfight was effing BOSS. When those two go at it, it just warms my heart, for whatever reason. Amazingly, Noelle Beck looks great even when shes all roughed up. I swear that woman never seems to age. Even though there appears to be more going on here than meets the eye, I still think Meg is nuts irregardless. That look she gave Lily when she said she was marrying Damian was like the *side-eye of death.* But I do enjoy crazy cooky Meg.

I really do like Lily and Damian being married, being together. But the nature of this story makes me feel they will eventually thrust Holden and Lily back together. Quite ironic, that Damian is the supposed bad guy and he's NICE. Holden is the supposed good guy, and he's like a complete jerk most of the time.

I can't stomach anything Craig/Rosanna at all. Craig seems to think Carly should just get over the fact he is marrying her sister--after giving her like 3 weeks to let it "sink in". Rosanna seems to think Carly should help her pick out her wedding dress...to her ex-fiance. What? Then I was totally confused by Craigs odd motivations for kissing Carly (and blabbing to Janet that Jack is staying at Carly's), which despite all that by the end of the show Carly ended up designing Rosanna's wedding dress. WTF?? Yeah...no.

I am not really feeling Jack as much these days. If it's one thing I can't deal with is men who don't know what the hell they want. It just appears he's using Brad's death as an excuse to dip out his marriage. I mean, I don't know...maybe my definition of love is different, but I'd like to think I would still feel the same about my spouse even if I had to endure something as heavy as this. Otherwise, did I ever love them in the first place? Does love come and go like that? Oh dumb question--its a soap opera stranger things have happened. But it's like saying "well I just can't forgive myself, I feel pretty lousy about it--so now Im not sure if I love you anymore." One should have nothing to do with the other.

You either love your wife, want her to help you get through your demons, or you don't. Why would I move out of my wife's house, and into my ex-wife's house, to get over the accidental killing of my brother? Because...Liberty can't deal with me right now? What? I just have a hard time buying any of it. I agree with Carly--Liberty is the child...you're the ADULT and should want to work through your marriage. I wish I would have stomped around at that age like homegirl, acting like I own the joint--I would have gotten the taste and several teeth knocked out of my mouth. Just saying.

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So this was the first full episode I'd watched of this show in a looongggg time. Out of morbid curiosity. The dialogue was somewhat better than before, but nowhere near the old Sheffer levels, and yes, the plotting, beats and pacing are all still fucked beyond belief, which is why I gave up on this show before. Everything is extremely accelerated, zipping from plot point to plot point in a single episode with no character, just plot. The dialogue writers are in service of shitty stories and dodgy character choices. Sure, the actors played the hell out of it, but how does Rosanna (poor Cady) go from seeing Craig kiss Carly to letting Carly do her wedding dress in a single episode? How does Liberty simultaneously blame Jack for Brad's death and encourage him not to leave Janet? This insane pace is all about plot, not character; it shows a contempt not only for the audience, but for the stories, the characters and the overall work. Everyday, for several years now, this show just feels like it wants to get it over with. With everything.

Damian is possibly the least attractive man I have seen in some time. How was he ever hot or popular? And is he now, while two timing the Snyder girls? Wasn't he and half the town angling to get Meg's candy less than six months ago? What happened to all the men in love with her crazy ass? Wasn't Lily happily married to Holden this summer? What happened to that? This is why the pacing is so insane. And Noelle Beck gave it her all in that great catfight but she'll never be Lily. If Goutman refuses to swallow his pride and let Martha come back, they need to let Lily go away for a bit and bring on Frannie Hughes. Marie Wilson is finally working as crazy Meg, but wasn't Meg scheming when she first was on the show as well? With the prior actress as well as in Wilson's early period? When did she become the heroine? What happened to Josh? That's another character they should've done a Sheffer recast on; not everyone agreed with his process, but he accomplished many revitalizing recasts of longtime characters like Craig and Rosanna (and at first, Dusty, even though it was OOC, before he became totally disgusting like he is now with his concrete rinse hair), and made them viable and exciting even as they were "old hat characters." Bring the old cousin-rapist back to tangle with crazy Meg; that'd be neat. Her insane eyes dancing about as she eyed the cake were hilarious, yet very realistic. That character could be gold now.

Holden and Molly were great - I hated Lesli Kay for a long time, but now she is more vital and vibrant and real than almost anything else on this show. Sadly, Holden still has the bewildered suburban dad with bed head look that he has had for at least five years. It's so unattractive. It screams "[!@#$%^&*] you, my kids gotta eat, don't make me comb my hair or look good." Do it up right, Jon Hensley. You're on the TV.

As for people not on - Nuke, laughable. They destroyed the premiere gay couple of soaps with a barrage of ridiculous stories and OLTL has usurped them. Van Hansis has become a camp joke, especially with that hair; mine may not be much better, but I ain't on television. And then there's The 40-Year-Old Alison. Mamie Sauerkraut or Shonenberg or Cronenberg or Sultenfuss or whatever the [!@#$%^&*] her name is. I don't understand how kooky Jessica Dunphy Alison left the show and a year or two later she is some sort of heroin-addicted porn star like the girl from Family Matters. That's like if Jessica left OLTL for a year and came back a high class call girl who liked crystal meth and got off on the donkey punch. What the [!@#$%^&*]? But, I'll say this, Marnie Sotomayor sure looks like she has been rode hard and put away wet. It's like Gabrielle Carteris on 90210; she is ancient. And she behaves nothing like Alison ever did. What is she doing here? Why, America? Why?

Then there is Paul and Emily and the magical fountain of youth, better known as Lumina, the story that killed Chris Goutman's last soap. If Tom Pelphrey is really

this show is going down like a 75c hooker. Roger Howarth just looks impotent and constipated. He's clearly over this. He's almost playing the Todd of OLTL 2009 - neuter-man. Also, Emily. I always have a problem buying Kelley Hensley as this crazy scheming bitch - I mean, yes, she plays crazy well, I remember when she shot Paul like a dozen times and rolled him off a cliff like a giant Tootsie Roll (and WHY are they back together after that?), but still she seems so tame most of the time. And now she wants another baby. Emily already has at least eight children. I can't count her or Lily's children anymore. Ethan? Who is that? Hunter? Hunter's like 26. Who are the men she had them by? And she wants more? Why are so many of the stories left on daytime today all about wombs and babies and ladyparts? Do men think it gets women (or gay men) hot to hear Kelley Hensley and Laura Wright rattle on and on about their vaginas and their uteruses til the break of dawn? The plots on this show all last about six minutes, too, so by February I'm sure she will have her ninth child.

And I'm spent. Goodnight, America. Er, good morning.

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I would disagree that he revitalized Craig, but people have probably already heard my bitching on that subject and you shouldn't have to go through it again. I will just say that I think he did to Craig what he did to many other "men with balls" on his soaps (Phillip and EJ on DAYS, Billy and Adam on Y&R). They never really recover.

Damian was very handsome in his first run on the show. Rugged, but still handsome, with a great body. Now I think he's a bit too thin, he could use more body fat. His hair also doesn't look good.

As for why Damian was popular at the time, he had a lot of chemistry with Martha Byrne, he was charismatic, and he was an option for the fans who were sick of Holden and Lily and who were bothered by how cold Holden had become since his brain damage. The Holden of that era was, I thought, a very unpleasant man, one who took his son from Iva only because of biology, and then proceeded to dump the child on Emma for what seemed like years, so he could obsess over Lily and sleep with Janice and with some random woman with a deaf child.

I think parts of Damian's return have worked. The games with Meg. I just don't think the Lily relationship has worked. To be honest I don't think it would have worked even with Martha, as I think Lily is just a tired character and needs a rest.

I didn't see Marie's early work as Meg, but the original Meg, Jennifer Ashe, was a good girl/bad girl. She hated farm life and wanted the riches. When she got them, she also got a cold, controlling husband, Tonio. She soon fell into lust, and love, with Josh, after initially hating him. When Tonio learned of her affair with Josh, he beat her up. So Meg had learned all her lessons about money and good men and all the rest, and married Josh and left town. She returned for visits, usually to give her family members lectures on what they were doing wrong. Finally she came back for good with Marie, and I think she just said she and Josh had broken up. I'm not sure if there was a reason.

Ethan is Lily's son with Holden.

Hunter was apparently an "accidental" egg or whatever that was produced when Emily was having Allison for Susan and Larry. So I guess he is Emily's and Larry's son. I'm not sure if she gave birth to him or what.

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Oh, I think Damian's mind games with Meg are great; I just resist the idea that his character is remotely attractive or rootable in the future. This guy should be cruising for a big murder mystery.

Lily LOOKS tired and so does Noelle Beck. She's fine but the character doesn't work with her in it. I wonder what would've happened if they'd gotten Laura Bonarrigo or Susan Haskell, who both were up for the part. Probably nothing, as the role is Martha's and the way this show is written and plotted, Lily is a mess no matter what. Yet if you get rid of Lily, even this Lily, I think many of the remaining viewers will bolt. And I like Holden and Molly better. So what to do? Even with Martha?

I understand the controversy over what Sheffer did with Craig, Dusty and co. and the character issues but I thought he gave an undeniable power to these historical characters many shows would have dismissed for good. I think Wilson's Meg was his last of those, and then I believe he was gone before they turned her into the milksop fans hated. Yes, Hunt Block's Craig went too far and Dusty became so gross, but much of that was after Passanante came aboard. And Scott Bryce was great with the darker stuff until they took him too far as well. I loved Jon Lindstrom as Kevin but he looks so fake here. It'll only be Scott Bryce for me.

God knows how many kids Holden and Lily have. And why on Earth did they give Emily an (eighth?) child?

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