KNOTS LANDING

[All My Shadows]

Getting to the end of season one...

I'm liking this season better than the stuff I watched of season two, definitely. Everything's stuffed into each episode, but I like the plot lines better. It would have been cool to see some stuff like Laura's rape, Sid's first wife returning, Lucy's visit, etc, stretched out over two or three episodes instead of just being self-contained. But still, good stuff. I didn't like how predictable the story with Sid's first wife was, though. It would have been more interesting if she wasn't trying to get Sid back, especially considering it'd been decades since they saw each other. It made her look kind of sad to still be pining away after him. Yet Karen's eagerness to get to know her kinda rang false for me.

Ginger's stalker(!!!) story was kinda weird. The Wally Cox-ish guy at the school was just...weird, and I guess he was supposed to be there as a red herring, but he was such a poor little fool, it was obvious he wasn't the one. I loved the back story with Priscilla Pointer, though, that was great. It was an interesting topic to touch on, and combining empty nest syndrome with abortion was pretty good.

As far as the characters, maybe I was a bit too hard on Ginger on Carl's status update. I like her and Kenny, basically, and I like the idea of them, the role they're supposed to be play, but Ginger's such a Mary Sue!! I remember some later (season 4-ish) episodes with her bitching out Ciji, so I hope that Ginger pops up more soon. And then I know she gets better in season two as well. Kenny, on the other hand, is just pure cheese.

[DRW50]

I think the self-contained stories worked moreso than the first seasons of Dallas or Falcon Crest, but some of them, like Sid's wife, did deserve more focus. I would have kept Karen Allen around for that. In other cases I think self-contained was better, like the "mother" episode.

I never saw Ginger as a Mary Sue because she was not the show's lead. Karen and Val were more of Mary Sues, especially Karen. I thought Ginger was a shy and fragile woman who could have surprising strength. What I liked most about Ginger was she was quiet and thoughtful and you could usually see what she was feeling - you felt a connection with her.

Kenny was probably suited to another show. The premise of his character did not work within the setup of Knots Landing. I also think they made a mistake having Abby pursue Richard instead of Kenny.

The early seasons had much more characterization and a peacefulness. Later on the action was ramped up but at the expense of the characters, especially Valene.

[All My Shadows]

Yes, the Knots early stories are much better than the DALLAS ones. I still can't get over how so many of the early DALLAS episodes reached climax within the last five minutes and left absolutely no room for fall out...just a quick scene of the family sitting around at home having a laugh. Almost like a sitcom.

I wonder if the show would have lasted (probably not) if it had stuck to its original premise. I love 70s family drama (Family and Eight is Enough need to be on TV somewhere right now!), but I really think KL had no choice but to glam up and get soapy.

[DRW50]

I don't think the show would have lasted. The changes they made were probably right, although I will never believe that Ginger had to go, and the fact that they brought her back for the reunion movie tells me someone agreed. I also think they struck a balance for a while but then it started to get into heavy character damage around 1986-1989 or so, the time of Valene the victim, of way too much of selfish, bellowing Mack, the tedious attempts to keep Gary/Val apart at any cost (they should have been reunited after Jill at the latest), limiting Greg's stories by taking Meg away from him. They were lucky that the new characters they brought in like Paige and Sumner were able to carry so much of the show and that Karen was still a viable character. The show lost a lot of its heart, especially thanks to what they did with Val and Laura, but skillful producing and writing offset this, generally, with a few exceptions (that awful spy story with poor yummy Ben and the hideous Jean Hackney, the DIRTY COP!!! season with Paige's unwashed boyfriend, the TIDAL ENERGY season, and quite a few of the last Abby stories - I don't think LML or whoever got Abby at all, with the boring Michael York story and with that last Japanese takeover story, which made Abby seem cold and empty, and was only redeemed by a few fun moments like Abby singing "Don't Worry Be Happy" in the elevator). They also managed to really nail humor and sly wit in a way I don't think any other primetime soap did.

The worst for the self-contained episodes I would have to say is Falcon Crest, because the story with Emma's memory of Jason's death stalls out to the same scenes each week, Chase and family and Angela and family are both too isolated from each other, and there are too many scenes where Chase or Maggie are somehow stunned at the idea of Angela being a liar or selfish. They go on and on about how selfish and controlling "Angie" is and they knew in the very first episode that Jason was a broken man and probably not close to Angela, then you get another cliffhanger where they read a letter written to Aunt Aggie, or whoever, detailing this and they make a shocked face for the freeze frame.

Edited February 24, 2011 by CarlD2

[LoyaltoAMC]

I recently rewatched seasons 1&2 on DVD, and for the most part, I think they hold up very well as solid domestic drama. I also appreciate the strong atmospheric late 70s-early 80s So Cal lifestyle and the sense of community that pervaded these seasons, which for me was kind of lost in subsequent seasons, esp. after season 4. Sure, there are some weaker episodes (the terrorizing motorcycle gang, Ginger's stalker), but the writers did a great job of writing realistic stories and establishing relatable characters. I kind of loathe the glam turn the show took in season 5, though I suppose that was inevitable, given the success of FC and Dynasty and the general opulence of the Reagan '80s, but part of the reason for the success of the glam stuff was due to the strong characters that had been established in earlier seasons. Melrose Place evolved similarly, and I don't think all their nuttiness would have worked if not for the more "dull" relatable storylines that characterized the first season. I think the show totally went off the rails later seasons during the LML years. I know a lot of people liked her stuff, but under her pen, the characters seemed to turn into caricatures of their former selves and the camp element, which went against the show's grain, was really amped up.

[DRW50]

I think the camp element worked with specific characters, and LML was fortunate to have those characters already there.

For instance, I thought that most of her stories for Karen - aside from the Meg stuff which I did not like - were very clever in basically writing around what was a one-note caricature. The stalking, her relationship with Mack (which was allowed some fun and sexy moments), her battles with the delicious Linda.

I thought she generally did a good job with material for Paige and for Greg. Paige did not fit into the old Knots Landing which was fading away by the time she arrived but when the show was reshaped she was a natural - a glossiness, a sheen, quick wit, yet some heart underneath. Greg was fun and yet also brooding and complicated and soulful. The story about Mary Catherine's death was a real sucker punch which Devane played brilliantly.

I also liked the Sumner company stuff.

The only material I strongly disliked during LML's era was the Meg custody battle, Mack becoming a bellowing self-righteous ass, Abby's exit story, the destructive writing for Olivia, and Valene's stories. The contempt that LML and Lechowick felt for Valene, and for Joan Van Ark, was palpable, and unfair.

I was also very disappointed with how Lynne Moody was treated, although I don't know if that was LML or the network.

Edited February 24, 2011 by CarlD2

[LoyaltoAMC]

I really disliked most of the big business stuff. My eyes glaze over even thinking about the Sumner Group LOL. I liked the quieter, more realistic show it was for the first few seasons. I stopped watching regularly in, I guess, 1986, and switched to watching LA Law in that Thurs 10pm spot. I think most Knots fans fall into 2 camps: those who liked the self-contained domestic and neighborhood-based stuff with elements of contiuning drama and those who liked the full-out soapy glam stuff of the later years. I guess different strokes for different folks.

[DRW50]

I guess I must just be weird because I liked both eras. The only time I really disliked the show was the season with Ben/Cathy, and then the Ben the spy stuff. I also disliked the time when the main stories were Paige and the dirty-looking cop and the Danny Waleska mess (weren't those around the same time). And of course the last two seasons.

To me Sumner Group was fun and quirky and generally full of interesting characters. I liked the supporting characters too, like the funny episode where they left the blow-up doll at Mack and Karen's house.

Do you think it's because I watched reruns instead of watching once a week?

[Chris B]

Knots Landing is truly the soap that made me the soap fan that I am today. One night I randomly turned on SOAPnet, really not knowing what soaps were. I did watch Y&R and B&B growing up, but I didn't know the term soap and just viewed them as entertaining shows (*loved* Sheila). By the time I discovered SOAPnet I was a little older (12 or 13 lol) and the episodes airing that night were the perfect ones to hook me. First it was Falcon Crest with the season 3 plane crash finale, then Knots with the season six finale where Val finds her babies. Both were just breathtaking and I was a Knots Nut ever since. I loved every era of the show for different reasons. My favorite characters were Paige, Greg, Diana and Richard. I watched the show maybe two or three times on SOAPnet, then stopped so I could enjoy the DVD releases. As a result I haven't seen the show in years. I watched the first two seasons as they were released on DVD, then the third season on torrent last year. I just purchased the full series and decided to start from the beginning.

While the self contained format can be frustrating, I thought it worked well for Knots in those early years. It was such a simple, yet complex show and fit the "scenes from a marriage" theme. I thought the first season had some amazing character studies and laid the foundation for a great second season. I also think it was the best Karen was ever written. She was so sexy and her relationship with Sid wasn't as "sainted" as her relationship with Mack became. Being the younger woman allowed her more freedom so she wasn't the typical good two shoes.

So far I've only rewatched the pilot, but from memory my favorites were Community Spirit (mainly for the JR/Karen scenes), Small Sacrifices where Karen considered an abortion, Constant Companion (one of Ginger's only chances to shine which was beautifully directed) and Let Me Count the Ways which was one of Karen's greatest episodes.

I look forward to reliving seasons 4+ (especially the much later seasons) because it's just been so long. I remember seasons 4-6 were just so densely plotted and perfectly executed. Truly must see tv. Looking at some seasons of Dallas and Knots Landing it's just impossible to touch. I'd love to see a modern series create umbrella stories that involve the entire cast in an organic way and always seem to be leading to something (that makes sense). And they even had more episodes to deal with. I don't know why it is so difficult to do these days.

[DRW50]

It isn't done today because the networks and often the producers have contempt for viewers and assume viewers can only take crap. It's also a continuing dumbing down of society and of the media.

[Khan]

Well, in that case, I'm "weird," too, and proud of it, lol.

I won't pretend the years with the Lechowicks were better than the years without, b/c, quite frankly, they weren't. Especially after the departures of Constance McCashin (Laura) and Julie Harris (Lilimae), the wheels really began to come off that wagon. One thing that was always true about KNOTS, however, no matter who was in charge, was that they told stories, and that those stories almost always delivered real payoffs. I might be able to say the same about DALLAS, and even parts of FALCON CREST, but definitely not the other primetime soaps from the Eighties.

Also, maybe it's just me, but I feel like Danny Waleska's story was less about Danny, or even about keeping Gary and Val apart a little bit longer, and more about introducing his ex-wife, Amanda, to the show. Which might have worked, I reckon, if they hadn't casted such a bland actress for that part. (I mean, really, Penny Peyser was the best they could come up with?)

Edited March 23, 2011 by Khan

[DRW50]

That whole "Amanda's friend" story or whatever it was, somebody's friend, confused me at the time, and she seemed so wan. I feel like they really never developed a believable love interest for Gary outside of Abby. I think the show hit on a good thing when they had Ben/Val and Abby/Gary and that both characters were strengthened by being apart.

I agree that Knots usually had a story. For all the talk of the public being too stupid to understand dense plotting, long-term story was what helped you hang on with Knots when the story itself wasn't the best. There were some exceptions (I never cared about the conclusion of DIRTYCOPDIRTYCOP or Ben's spa saga) but usually not. The show was also very good at followthrough and playing the beats. It was only when they stopped doing long-term story - the season of tidal energy - that the ratings really fell.

[Khan]

It did ... until they got stuck. As "perfect" as Ben/Val and Abby/Gary were, Ben and Val almost Mack and Karen redundant; and Gary couldn't stay married to Abby, either, and continue putting up w/ her machinations w/o looking like a complete idiot.

Case in point: the Wolfbridge Group. Even David Jacobs has admitted he didn't understand the story. LOL!

[Chris B]

Wolfbridge was the perfect soap story because it didn't focus on the details of the business deals, but the interactions with the characters and how it affected them. It was a really well done arc that included everybody. I loved it.

[Chris B]

I just completed season three. Season 2 didn't do too much for me, it never has. I think that the majority of the episodes are good, but when it went to self-contained episodes I found myself getting bored. Particularly the hitchhiker season premiere. What was the purpose of something like that? And it was a two-parter. But overall watchable and it set the tone for a great third season.

*Loved* everything with Richard and Laura. I think John Pleshette is just the cutest and most lovable evil little man on earth. His relationships with Kenny and Karen are both so unique and his relationship with Laura is so powerful. In many ways it's dated, but not in a bad way. It's just another type of life and honestly, I'm sure there are still couples just like them. Constance McCashin was terrible in the beginning and could've easily become another Ginger. John Pleshette was just too strong an actor and she had to bring it and she did well with a beefed up role.

Of course the Abby/Gary/Val triangle heated up in the nicest way possible. I'd love to see a soap do a triangle over a two season span without them having sex until the end of that second season. This just sizzled and they did it in a way that Abby didn't seem like the bad guy. She was doing something wrong and she was certainly deceptive, but Gary's actions were deplorable and he wanted Abby. He was terrible to Val before he started cheating with Abby so it was only a matter of time. And let's not forget Judy Trent (played to perfection by Jane Elliot). I'm glad they were able to repair Lilimae and Val's relationship, because she needed some support.

The Fairgate's also fared well without Sid. I honestly didn't miss him at all and despite many hailing this a dark season, I didn't see that. I actually found the second half to be darker than the first. They didnt' spend too much time with heavy Sid greiving. Everybody went about their own lives with the impact coming up in various ways. I thought it was handled well, but in the long term I feel like they forgot about Sid. I wish Eric and Michael made more of a mention of him growing up.

The biggest failure was Kenny and Ginger, but whats new? I wish they'd attempted a serious relationship between Joe and Ginger, which is the only thing that could save her character. Really, it seems like they didn't even use them to their full advantage as "talk-to's." It bothered me pairing up Kenny/Ginger with Laura/Richard in scenes because Laura and Richard were already low in the todem pole lol. I wanted Karen confiding in Ginger lol, or Val.